(Topic ID: 280246)

BSD OPTO 53 doesn't recognize fast ball

By Rondogg

1 year ago


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  • 23 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 11 months ago by Rondogg
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10_opto_board_J1.jpg
BSD Opto Emitter Board (resized).jpg
bsd error_LI (2) (resized).jpg
bsd ball in lock 1 (resized).jpg
BSD NO ERROR_LI (resized).jpg
bsd ball in lock 1 (resized).jpg

#1 1 year ago

This is regarding the Castle in BSD. When a castle lock is qualified, I shoot the castle. The diverter comes down and the ball goes into the castle for Ball Lock 1. Opto 53 does not recognize the ball in the castle (almost every time, it does "see" it if the ball comes in really slow), the up post drops and the ball goes back into the shooter lane and fires back into play.

OK, so first I reseat all the connectors from the opto to the Opto Board under the playfield, Same issue.

Then I reflow solder to the connections on the 10 Opto Board. I also reflow solder on both sides of Opto 53. Same thing.

I "thickened" up the top of the Up Post to make sure the balls sitting in the Castle are dead in the middle of each of the 3 optos. Nada.

Switch Edge Test shows all optos closed as they should be. In switch edge test a slowly rolled ball checks out just fine on Opto 53. Anything faster than your Grandma triggers the first two optos then nothing for Opto 53 (Lock 1). It basically says that the last switch detected was Switch 54 (Lock 2).

I checked continuity from the optos to the 10 Opto Board with dmm, all good.

I replaced the pair of Optos (Transmitter/Reciever) for Opto 53. Same issue.

I replaced the 10 Opto Board with a brand new replacement board from Homepin thinking it was a bad LM339. No change.

My plan for tomorrow is a visual inspection of every inch of the wires between the opto and the board to see if maybe a partial break is causing these intermittent issues. As far as I can tell there are no other issues with any OTHER optos/switches.

Anyone have any ideas what else I should check/do?

#2 1 year ago

Be nice if you knew if the ball was going high or low when the opto misses it. Then try and adjust accordingly.

LTG : )

#3 1 year ago
Quoted from LTG:

Be nice if you knew if the ball was going high or low when the opto misses it. Then try and adjust accordingly.
LTG : )

You think there'd be adjustment to solve this? I'd think the game is set up properly.

#4 1 year ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

This is regarding the Castle in BSD. When a castle lock is qualified, I shoot the castle. The diverter comes down and the ball goes into the castle for Ball Lock 1. Opto 53 does not recognize the ball in the castle (almost every time, it does "see" it if the ball comes in really slow), the up post drops and the ball goes back into the shooter lane and fires back into play.
OK, so first I reseat all the connectors from the opto to the Opto Board under the playfield, Same issue.
Then I reflow solder to the connections on the 10 Opto Board. I also reflow solder on both sides of Opto 53. Same thing.
I "thickened" up the top of the Up Post to make sure the balls sitting in the Castle are dead in the middle of each of the 3 optos. Nada.
Switch Edge Test shows all optos closed as they should be. In switch edge test a slowly rolled ball checks out just fine on Opto 53. Anything faster than your Grandma triggers the first two optos then nothing for Opto 53 (Lock 1). It basically says that the last switch detected was Switch 54 (Lock 2).
I checked continuity from the optos to the 10 Opto Board with dmm, all good.
I replaced the pair of Optos (Transmitter/Reciever) for Opto 53. Same issue.
I replaced the 10 Opto Board with a brand new replacement board from Homepin thinking it was a bad LM339. No change.
My plan for tomorrow is a visual inspection of every inch of the wires between the opto and the board to see if maybe a partial break is causing these intermittent issues. As far as I can tell there are no other issues with any OTHER optos/switches.
Anyone have any ideas what else I should check/do?

Narrow the beam of the OPTO by putting a little peice of shrink tubing on / around the led. That will cause it to be more sensitive. Just allow the dome of the led to peak out.

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from mollyspub:

You think there'd be adjustment to solve this?

You have a better idea ?

I'm just trying to think why it works slow and not always fast. Only thing I can come up with is how the ball blocks the opto. The ball is the only thing changing here.

LTG : )

#6 1 year ago

Thank you guys for your feedback. Problem still persists but I have new information. A couple of things I forgot to tell you.

1. Game is a reimport from France. I never changed it physically, just changed the language to English. Not sure if relevant.

Also, I did some more tests. Let me show you how it's supposed to look in the switch edge test.

A slow rolling ball, or finger or cardboard or whatever. Three quick sounds of each opto opening and on the display a quick succession of SW 57, SW54 and SW 53 with the DMD finally showing SW 53 as opened and also the "last switch". This is how it is supposed to react.

BSD NO ERROR_LI (resized).jpgbsd ball in lock 1 (resized).jpg

#7 1 year ago

And now what is happening with anything more than slow speed. Seriously, if I roll the ball into the castle from 10 inches away, it does the following: The test makes 3 successive bongs as each of the optos open (just like in the first experiment) but the display only shows SW 57 and SW 54 opening. When the ball rests, SW 53 still shows as open on the left of the Switch Diagram but the Last Switch is showing as the SW 54.

So it's like part of the machine knows the switch was opened but it never told some other part of the machine. Super weird, no?
bsd ball in lock 1 (resized).jpgbsd error_LI (2) (resized).jpg

#8 1 year ago

I think you may have an issue with opto castle 2. It seems like the receiver may have some issue that is causing a delayed response. This would explain why it works when the ball goes slowly, but not when it goes fast. In game play, if the game detects that opto castle 2 is triggering after opto castle 1, it would think there are 2 balls in the lockup which would cause it to try and eject out the 2nd ball.

#9 1 year ago

Good thinking. I will try to reflow Opto 2 and see what happens.

I also looked at the switch matrix to see what switched were immediately around Opto 53

Opto 54 - Castle Lock 2 = Tests Fine, doesn't set anything else off
Opto 52 - Opto Magnet L Pocket = Same
Opto 73 - Left Ramp Entry = Same

***********
Opto 43 - Trough 3 Balls Opto. OK, so there may also be an issue with the trough. The trough goes SW44>SW43>SW42>SW41. This seems to be exhibiting the same behavior as the castle locks. When a gameplay speed ball rolls over SW44>SW43>SW42>SW41 it rests at SW41 but is says on the DMD "Last SW 42" yet it still shows SW41 as being closed. A slow roll over each switch shows the correct sequence and "Last SW 41".

Could there be a problem with the CPU not being able to keep up with fast switch hits? Is that a thing?

#10 1 year ago

Do yourself a favor and print out the page showing the switch matrix. Put the game in switch test and hit every switch one at a time. Cross them off of as you go. Make a note of every switch that triggers more that one switch, doesn't work or activates the wrong switch. It sounds to me like you have a problem in the switch matrix. You should see a pattern. A short or a failing diode will cause all sorts of issues.

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from Mad_Dog_Coin_Op:

Do yourself a favor and print out the page showing the switch matrix. Put the game in switch test and hit every switch one at a time. Cross them off of as you go. Make a note of every switch that triggers more that one switch, doesn't work or activates the wrong switch. It sounds to me like you have a problem in the switch matrix. You should see a pattern. A short or a failing diode will cause all sorts of issues.

Smart. I just printed out the switch matrix and went through one by one. They all trigger correctly and don't flash to any alternate switches. Well the only switch I couldn't trigger/find was #77 R. Ramp Up but that ramp has always worked correctly and is not on the same column or row as anything with an issue.

Ran Magnet test, no issues.

#12 1 year ago
Quoted from LTG:

You have a better idea ?
I'm just trying to think why it works slow and not always fast. Only thing I can come up with is how the ball blocks the opto. The ball is the only thing changing here.
LTG : )

Sure don't! ive seen you give a lot of good advice here.

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Smart. I just printed out the switch matrix and went through one by one. They all trigger correctly and don't flash to any alternate switches. Well the only switch I couldn't trigger/find was #77 R. Ramp Up but that ramp has always worked correctly and is not on the same column or row as anything with an issue.
Ran Magnet test, no issues.

Pull out the closest LED GI bulbs by your problem switch. It is possible the light from one of those is causing your problems.

#14 1 year ago
Quoted from Mad_Dog_Coin_Op:

Pull out the closest LED GI bulbs by your problem switch. It is possible the light from one of those is causing your problems.

Good idea. Tomorrow I will try and shroud out all light and see what happens. Right now there are incandescent under it and I tried to block those but same issue. Maybe the overhead lights are affecting it - I will block 100% of light tomorrow...

Just wondering if the CPU could be effecting it or if it being a reimport does something.

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Good idea. Tomorrow I will try and shroud out all light and see what happens. Right now there are incandescent under it and I tried to block those but same issue. Maybe the overhead lights are affecting it - I will block 100% of light tomorrow...
Just wondering if the CPU could be effecting it or if it being a reimport does something.

Have you checked all connectors? Bad male/female pins perhaps, maybe loose or corroded. Not only on the opto boards but also any connectors in the bottom of the cabinet and on the MPU. My Dr. WHO exhibited similar issues and I had loose pins on my cabinet block connectors that would give me problems like yours. If you have to narrow the opto beam field with straws, or have already changed opto LED's, your issue is elsewhere. Have you measured voltage when breaking the beams?

#16 1 year ago

I will unplug inspect and replug everything in the game tomorrow. And measure voltages. Thank you.

#17 1 year ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

I will unplug inspect and replug everything in the game tomorrow. And measure voltages. Thank you.

The way I found my issue was to actually "wiggle" my connector blocks that were associated to my problem optos. Hopefully, you can narrow it down.

#18 1 year ago

You may be on to something. I looked at the back of the emitter board and Grey/Black is on Opto SW 53 (Lock 1) and Grey/Orange is on Opto SW 54 (Lock 2). According to the Manual diagram of the 10 SW Opto Board, these should be switched. But I don't know if this is an error in the manual or not. The receiver side looks correct compared to the manual.

Kindof a big ask here but could someone take a pic or check the back of their Castle Opto Emitter and see if mine is wired correctly?

This is what the back of my board looks like:

BSD Opto Emitter Board (resized).jpg
#19 1 year ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

I looked at the back of the emitter board and Grey/Black is on Opto SW 53 (Lock 1) and Grey/Orange is on Opto SW 54 (Lock 2). According to the Manual diagram of the 10 SW Opto Board, these should be switched. But I don't know if this is an error in the manual or not.

The manual is correct (if you're looking at the wire colors on page 3-22). The stripe color on the gray wire follows the required pattern (avoiding yellow by substituting black).

It looks like your board is incorrect but it doesn't matter. All the transmitters are wired in parallel and not distinguished from one another. They are simply a power source for the transmitter. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this.

10_opto_board_J1.jpg

Quoted from Rondogg:

The receiver side looks correct compared to the manual.

The receiver side is the important side as the different receivers are separated to be able to identify which switch is closed.

#20 1 year ago

Regardless of the wiring, the most important thing is that the switches register in the correct order in switch edges test. That's what the CPU sees. Use your finger. From right to left, 53, 54 then 57. If they don't register in that order, you have a wiring issue. Also wouldn't hurt to trigger two, then all three at once, to see if they still register correctly and aren't affecting other switches.

That sleeve shouldn't be on the up post. Take that off. Also, the up post looks like it's positioned wrong. Should be closer to switch 53 optos. Ball on post should be centered between switch 53 optos. Don't recall if the post or the wireform adjusts, but that doesn't look right. Also, the post needs to be properly centered between the wireform rails. That's important. Get that post straightened out before you dig into the optos much more.

#21 1 year ago
Quoted from phishrace:

Regardless of the wiring, the most important thing is that the switches register in the correct order in switch edges test. That's what the CPU sees. Use your finger. From right to left, 53, 54 then 57. If they don't register in that order, you have a wiring issue. Also wouldn't hurt to trigger two, then all three at once, to see if they still register correctly and aren't affecting other switches.
That sleeve shouldn't be on the up post. Take that off. Also, the up post looks like it's positioned wrong. Should be closer to switch 53 optos. Ball on post should be centered between switch 53 optos. Don't recall if the post or the wireform adjusts, but that doesn't look right. Also, the post needs to be properly centered between the wireform rails. That's important. Get that post straightened out before you dig into the optos much more.

Good info about the wiring. I will look tomorrow.

Also, I'm new to this game so I may not know how it works. I watched some gameplay and it looks like the LOCKs are fulfilled when the microswitch at the top of the castle wireform is pressed. I thought it was the optos that determined whether the LOCK was scored. It could very well be that the microswitch isn't always scoring, especially on a fast ball. I need to test in gameplay. My issues could be as simple as an adjustment or a new switch. Christ I hope so.

As far as the black electrical tape on the uppost, that's only there to rule out the ball not sitting right. I tried to adjust the post but it's locked in there and I can't figure out how to move it, same with the wireform. The tolerances are tight! I read about someone using a post cap and ran with that idea. And it is dead center, it's just the angle of the pic making it look off center.

#22 12 months ago

OK so I bent the microswitch and the game is registering locks and not depositing them into the shooter lane.

Thank you everyone.

Game still having issues tracking # of balls in gameplay but that's a separate issue now that I need to look into. It seems to be dumping 2 sometimes 3 into play from the castle and shutting down when one ball is drained. I will look into it. One thing at a time, right?

#23 11 months ago
Quoted from mbt:

I think you may have an issue with opto castle 2. It seems like the receiver may have some issue that is causing a delayed response. This would explain why it works when the ball goes slowly, but not when it goes fast. In game play, if the game detects that opto castle 2 is triggering after opto castle 1, it would think there are 2 balls in the lockup which would cause it to try and eject out the 2nd ball.

FYI, I replaced the other two sets of optos and everything appears to be working correctly now, I'm guessing the castle lock 2 was flaky, one of the legs pulled easily out of the receiver. Anyway, just wanted to tie a bow on this for anyone who has the same issue. Thanks mbt and everyone who helped out!

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