(Topic ID: 274608)

BSD Check F114 & F115 message after doing something potentially stupid

By blazingsaddlz

3 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 33 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by Banker
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 3 years ago

Little backstory first - I have the Rottendog MPU board just in case that matters. My #BSD was running almost perfectly when I decided to add a spotlight to the graveyard area. I tested it out after installation, and it worked fine, and game didn't throw errors. I've been having an issue with the middle pop bumper being weak, so I checked that out after powering down the game (but I left it plugged in). As I was adjusting the switch, I felt a little shock but didn't think twice about it. Powered the game back up, and I was greeted with the F114 and F115 message. F114 continuity was good after taking it out, and F115 was visibly blown, and had no continuity.

Now onto the stupid part. I didn't have a 3/4A fuse, so I threw in a 3A fuse to F115 just to see if it would work after. F114 and F115 message went away, and I was getting some weird ground loop issues and check switch matrix errors for the middle pop bumper and drop targets, and I think a bit more, but I powered off the machine before I could take a picture.

I've since received 3/4A fuses, and when installing it to F115 it blows immediately. So, I've been going through the pinwiki troubleshooting steps, and have been doing well until checking for 12V at pin 2 of J114.

I had no fuse in F115 at first because I didn't want to continue blowing while testing. When I powered on the game with the J114 connector undone, I blew the main 8A power fuse for the machine. So after replacing that, and installing the correct 3/4A fuse in J115, I'm blowing the 3A fuses at F104 and F105 before I can even check for 12V at pin2 J114.

I'm hoping for some insight before I keep blowing through fuses trying to figure this out.

#2 3 years ago
Quoted from blazingsaddlz:

Little backstory first - I have the Rottendog MPU board just in case that matters. My #BSD was running almost perfectly when I decided to add a spotlight to the graveyard area. I tested it out after installation, and it worked fine, and game didn't throw errors. I've been having an issue with the middle pop bumper being weak, so I checked that out after powering down the game (but I left it plugged in). As I was adjusting the switch, I felt a little shock but didn't think twice about it. Powered the game back up, and I was greeted with the F114 and F115 message. F114 continuity was good after taking it out, and F115 was visibly blown, and had no continuity.
Now onto the stupid part. I didn't have a 3/4A fuse, so I threw in a 3A fuse to F115 just to see if it would work after. F114 and F115 message went away, and I was getting some weird ground loop issues and check switch matrix errors for the middle pop bumper and drop targets, and I think a bit more, but I powered off the machine before I could take a picture.
I've since received 3/4A fuses, and when installing it to F115 it blows immediately. So, I've been going through the pinwiki troubleshooting steps, and have been doing well until checking for 12V at pin 2 of J114.
I had no fuse in F115 at first because I didn't want to continue blowing while testing. When I powered on the game with the J114 connector undone, I blew the main 8A power fuse for the machine. So after replacing that, and installing the correct 3/4A fuse in J115, I'm blowing the 3A fuses at F104 and F105 before I can even check for 12V at pin2 J114.
I'm hoping for some insight before I keep blowing through fuses trying to figure this out.

Are F104 and F105 Coils?

F114 might be MPU related either LM339 or U20 chip.

#3 3 years ago
Quoted from eyeamred2u:

Are F104 and F105 Coils?
F114 might be MPU related either LM339 or U20 chip.

Yep, the F104 and F105 go to the coils. I'll check all of those when I get home. My F114 didn't blow, even though the message that pops up says "check F114 and F115." F115 blows when I start the game, and that goes to the switch matrix. I don't have any experience troubleshooting that, so I need to do some more research.

I just wonder if that my symptom of the F104 and 105 fuses blowing when I disconnect J114 is the same thing that's causing the F115 to blow.

#4 3 years ago

This might be a bad BR. At the gym so just shooting from the hip.

#5 3 years ago

You can just disconnect power to the MPU at J210. If F114 and F115 do not blow, then it should be an issue on the MPU.

Then do a resistance test, with power off on the game, on U20 across pins 9 and 10. If this is below 1 meg ohm, U20 is toast.

#6 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

You can just disconnect power to the MPU at J210. If F114 and F115 do not blow, then it should be an issue on the MPU.
Then do a resistance test, with power off on the game, on U20 across pins 9 and 10. If this is below 1 meg ohm, U20 is toast.

Disconnected J210 on the MPU, and F114 and F115 did not blow, but F104 and F105 blew immediately. Which from what I gather it means that I have a short somewhere in the playfield.

I tried to research how to check U20, but I don't know what you mean by pins 9 and 10. Are those the two that are farthest to the left on the U20 chip? If so, I get a reading of 0 when I set my DMM to 20M ohms. If it is bad, thankfully it's socketed on the rottendog board.

In the meantime, I'll start looking under the playfield.

#7 3 years ago
Quoted from blazingsaddlz:

10. Are those the two that are farthest to the left on the U20 chip? If so, I get a reading of 0 when I set my DMM to 20M ohms. If it is bad, thankfully it's socketed on the rottendog board

Yes. Sounds shorted.

I have to do some looking into the other issue since that is not ringing a bell with the other 2 fuses other than I think you may have to disconnect the ribbon cables from the CPU board, not just the J210. Sorry.

#8 3 years ago
Quoted from blazingsaddlz:

Disconnected J210 on the MPU, and F114 and F115 did not blow, but F104 and F105 blew immediately. Which from what I gather it means that I have a short somewhere in the playfield.
I tried to research how to check U20, but I don't know what you mean by pins 9 and 10. Are those the two that are farthest to the left on the U20 chip? If so, I get a reading of 0 when I set my DMM to 20M ohms. If it is bad, thankfully it's socketed on the rottendog board.
In the meantime, I'll start looking under the playfield.

Disconnect J127 &J130 on Power Driver Board, I believe those control coils 1-16 on your game for the fuse that are blowing. Can try to eliminate some other issues and test your MPU

#9 3 years ago
Quoted from eyeamred2u:

Disconnect J127 &J130 on Power Driver Board, I believe those control coils 1-16 on your game for the fuse that are blowing. Can try to eliminate some other issues and test your MPU

So I put new fuses in F104 and F105, and disconnected J127 and J130 and started the game - with J210 connected on the MPU, and no fuses blew, but I took a video of the errors that it detected (which I'm guessing are because I disconnected J127 and J130). It read:

Check switch 51 opto TR Lane, 53 opto castle 1, 54 opto castle 2, 55 opto BL popper, 56 opto TL popper.
Also, check magnet left, right, and unload errors, and top right ramp up errors.

I'm getting more confused as to what I'm even looking for.

#10 3 years ago

You were looking to see of F114 and F115 were blowing.

Can you replace U20 and reconnect everything?

#11 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

You were looking to see of F114 and F115 were blowing.
Can you replace U20 and reconnect everything?

I've got 10 U20s that'll be here on Saturday. It'd be crazy if all my issues are stemming from a bad chip, but I hope that's the case.

#12 3 years ago

The F104 and F105 may been because I did not tell you to pull the short ribbon cable off between the MPU and driver board sending false highs over to enable the coils that caused the F104 and F105 fuses to blow.

#13 3 years ago
Quoted from blazingsaddlz:

So I put new fuses in F104 and F105, and disconnected J127 and J130 and started the game - with J210 connected on the MPU, and no fuses blew, but I took a video of the errors that it detected (which I'm guessing are because I disconnected J127 and J130). It read:
Check switch 51 opto TR Lane, 53 opto castle 1, 54 opto castle 2, 55 opto BL popper, 56 opto TL popper.
Also, check magnet left, right, and unload errors, and top right ramp up errors.
I'm getting more confused as to what I'm even looking for.

The errors you can ignore.

You can connect J127 or J130 but not both and see if the fuses blow. Try to narrow down which section is blowing fuses, #1-8 or #9-16. I know it is trial and error, but this is pinball troubleshooting.

Can you see any broken wires on the associated coils for the coils listed on page 3-8 of the Manual?

#14 3 years ago
Quoted from eyeamred2u:

The errors you can ignore.
You can connect J127 or J130 but not both and see if the fuses blow. Try to narrow down which section is blowing fuses, #1-8 or #9-16. I know it is trial and error, but this is pinball troubleshooting.
Can you see any broken wires on the associated coils for the coils listed on page 3-8 of the Manual?

I put good fuses in F104 and F105, and tried with only J127 plugged in, and then with only J130 plugged in, and neither blew a fuse. Figured I'd try with everything plugged in again, with good fuses in F115, 104 and 105, and no fuses blew, and it showed the same exact errors I listed earlier.

It seems that F104 and F105 only blow when J210 is disconnected, and when J114 is disconnected.

Maybe this is all a symptom of my U20 that's bad?

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

The F104 and F105 may been because I did not tell you to pull the short ribbon cable off between the MPU and driver board sending false highs over to enable the coils that caused the F104 and F105 fuses to blow.

I think you're right about this. But it still makes me wonder why they blew when I was checking pin 2 of J114 when going through the pinwiki troubleshooting steps here https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Check_fuses_F114_and_F115_message

The errors I'm getting now are entirely different than what I was getting at the beginning.

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from blazingsaddlz:

I think you're right about this. But it still makes me wonder why they blew when I was checking pin 2 of J114 when going through the pinwiki troubleshooting steps here https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Check_fuses_F114_and_F115_message
The errors I'm getting now are entirely different than what I was getting at the beginning.

Do they any fuses blow with J210 plugged in with U20 removed? This will be a better test.

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from blazingsaddlz:

I think you're right about this. But it still makes me wonder why they blew when I was checking pin 2 of J114 when going through the pinwiki troubleshooting steps here https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Check_fuses_F114_and_F115_message
The errors I'm getting now are entirely different than what I was getting at the beginning.

You have those other errors because it performs a self test of these switches every time you turn the game on if you notice on start up and every time you exit the menu you get a bunch of racket. It ejects the ball from the mist gate, loads a new one, pops the ramp up and down a few times, the magnet underneath moves back and forth. Since you unplugged the switches, it’s not getting any readings from any of the associated switches as it tries to perform those test.

#18 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Do they any fuses blow with J210 plugged in with U20 removed? This will be a better test.

Pulled out U20, and no fuses blew. The error message read "Check Fuse F114 and F115" again. I'll plug in a U20 when I get them in the mail tomorrow.

#19 3 years ago

Excellent news so far.

#20 3 years ago
Quoted from blazingsaddlz:

Pulled out U20, and no fuses blew. The error message read "Check Fuse F114 and F115" again. I'll plug in a U20 when I get them in the mail tomorrow.

That is good news, that is usually the culprit, hopefully none if the LM339's on the MPU are blown as well.

#21 3 years ago
Quoted from eyeamred2u:

That is good news, that is usually the culprit, hopefully none if the LM339's on the MPU are blown as well.

With a brand new U20 plugged in, I'm getting these errors:

Check switch 51: Opto T.R. Lane
Check switch 53: Opto Castle 1
Check switch 54: Opto Castle 2
Check Switch 57: Opto Castle 3
Check Switch 84: L. Ramp Score
Magnet right, left, and unload error
Top right ramp up error

Any advice for my next troubleshooting tests? I've never had a switch matrix issue before, so I'm researching how to test this. I'm a fish out of water here.

Thanks everyone for the help so far!

#22 3 years ago

Seems a good time to test the MPU switch inputs.

After putting the game into the switch edge test, unplug J206 to J209. Then jumper from J209 pin 1 to J207 pin1, 2, 3 to.8. If they register, then J209 pin 2 to J207 pin 1, 2 3 to 8. Want to do this for all the switches shown in the switch matrix chart. This will determine if it is a MPU board or not.

#23 3 years ago
Quoted from blazingsaddlz:

With a brand new U20 plugged in, I'm getting these errors:
Check switch 51: Opto T.R. Lane
Check switch 53: Opto Castle 1
Check switch 54: Opto Castle 2
Check Switch 57: Opto Castle 3
Check Switch 84: L. Ramp Score
Magnet right, left, and unload error
Top right ramp up error
Any advice for my next troubleshooting tests? I've never had a switch matrix issue before, so I'm researching how to test this. I'm a fish out of water here.
Thanks everyone for the help so far!

Where is your schematic? Learn to read it and associate those switches and optos to the iC's or Transitors or Coils and so forth. The Pinwiki is a good resource, we are a good resource, but we need feedback here. You are doing good here...keep it up. Optos can be tested.

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Seems a good time to test the MPU switch inputs.
After putting the game into the switch edge test, unplug J206 to J209. Then jumper from J209 pin 1 to J207 pin1, 2, 3 to.8. If they register, then J209 pin 2 to J207 pin 1, 2 3 to 8. Want to do this for all the switches shown in the switch matrix chart. This will determine if it is a MPU board or not.

Did as you requested, and everything registers when I test. Tested everything just in case, and double checked to make sure that the specific ones that were giving me errors were in fact working. So I think that rules out the MPU. I don't have any alligator clips, so it required a steady hand

I'm guessing that J206 and J207 are interchangeable. My cord was plugged into J206, but the switch matrix in the manual lists J207.

Quoted from eyeamred2u:

Where is your schematic? Learn to read it and associate those switches and optos to the iC's or Transitors or Coils and so forth. The Pinwiki is a good resource, we are a good resource, but we need feedback here. You are doing good here...keep it up. Optos can be tested.

Thanks! I can actually understand what I'm doing when testing the switch matrix now, so that's a plus. It looks like all of my errors are opto related now. Going to look in the manual and see how I can test it.

#25 3 years ago
Quoted from blazingsaddlz:

I'm guessing that J206 and J207 are interchangeable. My cord was plugged into J206, but the switch matrix in the manual lists J207.

Quoted from

Yes. You can see the traces from J206 pin 1 to J207 pin 1, etc. Same with J208 and J209.

#26 3 years ago

I am glad it looks like the CPU tests good.

There is a big 7-opto board with at least 4 connectors going to it mounted on the underside of the playfield. Can you remove that board to see whether the vertical mounted capacitor looks like it is wet underneath it? That is a sign it is leaking and is bad. Also look under the C2 on the driver board, which is on the left side of the board, to see if has been leaking.

#27 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

I am glad it looks like the CPU tests good.
There is a big 7-opto board with at least 4 connectors going to it mounted on the underside of the playfield. Can you remove that board to see whether the vertical mounted capacitor looks like it is wet underneath it? That is a sign it is leaking and is bad. Also look under the C2 on the driver board, which is on the left side of the board, to see if has been leaking.

So I just plugged J206 and J209 back in, and for some reason I'm not getting the opto errors anymore. Only the right left and unload magnet errors. Just to verify that the optos are in fact working, I tested all of them, and they're good. I'm going to lift the playfield and see if I have a loose connector somewhere.

Nothing is working with the magnet right now, and that seems to be the only issue. EDIT. Powered off again and powered back on. It's not giving me magnet errors anymore, but the motor that moves the magnet isn't working. The magnet itself appears to be loading and unloading correctly. Just isn't moving.

#28 3 years ago

Did some more searching about the mist motor issue, and found that fuse F111 a 5A was blown. Replaced it with a 3A to test since I don't have a 5, and the motor is working.

I have no idea how all of these problems seem to have resolved. U20 was definitely an issue, but my problems persisted even after replacing it. It took a handful of power cycles, and unplugging/plugging in the machine to get it working. I'm going to play a handful of games with it to see if anything shows up, but for now, it seems to be working.

#29 3 years ago
Quoted from blazingsaddlz:

So I put new fuses in F104 and F105, and disconnected J127 and J130 and started the game - with J210 connected on the MPU, and no fuses blew, but I took a video of the errors that it detected (which I'm guessing are because I disconnected J127 and J130). It read:
Check switch 51 opto TR Lane, 53 opto castle 1, 54 opto castle 2, 55 opto BL popper, 56 opto TL popper.
Also, check magnet left, right, and unload errors, and top right ramp up errors.
I'm getting more confused as to what I'm even looking for.

That sure sounds familiar.....

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bsd-opto-problems-holy-carp#post-2012168

Visit my thread to find the answer you seek.

Maybe you have the same thing going on....

#30 3 years ago
Quoted from NPO:

That sure sounds familiar.....
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bsd-opto-problems-holy-carp#post-2012168
Visit my thread to find the answer you seek.
Maybe you have the same thing going on....

Your thread was the reason I even checked F111, so I was pretty happy to stumble upon it. I'm still thinking that I've got a short somewhere in the playfield that was causing problems, so I'll troubleshoot that when I next start having problems. Otherwise I'm leaving everything closed up so I don't ruin anything.

#31 3 years ago

Having similar issues

#32 3 years ago
Quoted from Banker:

Having similar issues

Best to start a new repair thread. Include any work that was done previously to.the gamre failing and picture of the MPU.

2 weeks later
#33 3 years ago

Replaced both opto boards , problem solved .

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