Flash Gordon
Bally, 1981I attempted to take out TMS5200NL speech chip from the squawk and talk board on my Flash Gorden located at U8. Several pins broke due to heavy corrosion. One pin broke in the housing and its stuck inside, no way to get it out.
Does anybody know where to find a replacement chip?
Also where i can send the board to have the housing for the rom fixed or replaced due to pin being stuck in it? Any suggestions?
image (resized).jpgThe one broken pin I see can be repaired. I can’t see the other ones. Did the chip work? Why did you take it out? Take a fine sturdy wire to pick out the broken leg.
You can get a new chip for about $30 including shipping. If the old one was working and all the legs can be fixed I wouldn’t buy a new one.
Quoted from jj44114:The one broken pin I see can be repaired. I can’t see the other ones. Did the chip work? Why did you take it out? Take a fine sturdy wire to pick out the broken leg.
You can get a new chip for about $30 including shipping. If the old one was working and all the legs can be fixed I wouldn’t buy a new one.
Whats an easy way to fix pins on the chip?
I decided to take it out and inspect it due to a garbled voice in some of the speech. I had read the chip could be a cause. The chip was badly corroded.
1 -- clean remaining pins *carefully* so that you don't break any more pins off. I use Tarnex, slight rubbing then rinse.
2 -- Get yourself a 28 pin machine pin socket (machine pin sockets have exposed contact areas on top).
3 -- Insert remaining pins into new 28 pin socket.
4 -- solder the IC into the top side of the socket (not too much heat as the plastic frame will melt and pins might move)
5 -- for broken pin(s), add small wire from socket entry hole and solder directly to remaining pin stub.
Best wire to use for this is a small, solid wire such as a lead cut from a 1/4W resistor.
6 -- the 28 pin IC socket is now part of your 28 pin IC. Insert that into your existing IC socket.
To keep pins from melting loose and moving while soldering, I actually insert the machine pin socket into another socket to hold the pins in place.
If there are old legs stuck in existing IC socket, you may need to replace socket.
The pins don’t look that bad. I solder a good pin from another chip on to the stub of the broken pin. If the stub is too short or the corrosion is really bad it won’t work. I wouldn’t bother doing this with readily available chips, but these are hard to find and getting expensive.
If you have garbled speech on only some the call outs it probably one of the roms that’s the issue. If the speech chip is bad it’s usually no speech or all the call outs are distorted.
If it’s just the one pin that is shown in the pic then using GPEs procedure makes this an easy fix.
—
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
Http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com/ - The new place for pinball repair info
Post pics of both sides of the chip. Hopefully there is enough material left on the broken pins to solder onto.
Quoted from jj44114:Post pics of both sides of the chip. Hopefully there is enough material left on the broken pins to solder onto.
All 4 pins broke at same spot. Like i said, it was incredibly brittle due to the corrosion.
Quoted from G-P-E:1 -- clean remaining pins *carefully* so that you don't break any more pins off. I use Tarnex, slight rubbing then rinse.
2 -- Get yourself a 28 pin machine pin socket (machine pin sockets have exposed contact areas on top).
3 -- Insert remaining pins into new 28 pin socket.
4 -- solder the IC into the top side of the socket (not too much heat as the plastic frame will melt and pins might move)
5 -- for broken pin(s), add small wire from socket entry hole and solder directly to remaining pin stub.
6 -- the 28 pin IC socket is now part of your 28 pin IC. Insert that into your existing IC socket.
To keep pins from melting loose and moving while soldering, I actually insert the machine pin socket into another socket to hold the pins in place.
If there are old legs stuck in existing IC socket, you may need to replace socket.
Thanks for the advice. I will attempt this and hopefully not break anything else in the mean time. who knows, maybe all this hassle will somehow fix some of the speech issues i'm having.
Quoted from Dbfootball:I attempted to take out TMS5200NL speech chip from the squawk and talk board on my Flash Gorden located at U8. Several pins broke due to heavy corrosion. One pin broke in the housing and its stuck inside, no way to get it out.
Does anybody know where to find a replacement chip?
Also where i can send the board to have the housing for the rom fixed or replaced due to pin being stuck in it? Any suggestions?[quoted image]
applejuice has monopolized most of the remaining TMS5200NL chips for his repro S&T boards
Looking at that board - looks like it still has original electrolytics. Can probably use a re-capping while you're at it. I have found the small electrolytic caps such as 1 or 2uF to be the ones to go bad first.
You can find a list of capacitor sizes here:
https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=BALLY-STE-KIT
Quoted from alveolus:applejuice has monopolized most of the remaining TMS5200NL chips for his repro S&T boards
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/mypinballs-squawk-talk-sound-board-gordons-alive/page/3#post-5085179
Thanks. If my crash course in repairing this chip doesn’t work I’ll try to get a hold of him.
Quoted from G-P-E:Looking at that board - looks like it still has original electrolytics. Can probably use a re-capping while you're at it. I have found the small electrolytic caps such as 1 or 2uF to be the ones to go bad first.
You can find a list of capacitor sizes here:
https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=BALLY-STE-KIT
I had been thinking about getting the caps replaced but I have yet to find one forum to say that fixed the issue I’m having. But probably wouldn’t be a bad idea.
Quoted from Dbfootball:I had been thinking about getting the caps replaced but I have yet to find one forum to say that fixed the issue I’m having. But probably wouldn’t be a bad idea.
The first step to repairing any S&T board is to recap it.
Next...
...sockets
...pots
...ROMs
If that chip has only the thin part of the leg broken, then it's entirely repairable as GPE says. If a pin is broken off right at the plastic chip carrier, then it's still probably repairable, but the process becomes more involved.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info
$25
http://www.arcadeshop.com/i/1487/tms5200nl-speech-synthesizer-chip.htm
$100 for 10pcs if you are willing to do the aliexpress gamble.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32987984465.html
C15 looks original and the original ones are almost always failed. The three diodes below it get quite warm which cooks that capacitor.
Quoted from jj44114:If you have garbled speech on only some the call outs it probably one of the roms that’s the issue. If the speech chip is bad it’s usually no speech or all the call outs are distorted.
If R9 is out of spec it can also cause garbled speech as well - worth checking the value with the schematic.
The tms5200 might not be the problem anyway. If you have some speech garbled and some clear it’s often one of the roms that’s bad. In my experience if the tms5200 is bad, all speech is garbled.
And for anyone else out there, NEVER remove this chip unless absolutely necessary. The legs break off most of the time you try to pry one out, and you end up here.
Quoted from jj44114:The tms5200 might not be the problem anyway. If you have some speech garbled and some clear it’s often one of the roms that’s bad. In my experience if the tms5200 is bad, all speech is garbled.
Do you mean the same speech is either garbled or clear every time repeated over & over, or random garbled speech?
I guess if it's the same speech effected every time it would be a ROM.
I installed a variable resistor in place of R9 to see if R9 was the cause of garbled speech I was getting quite a bit - R9 was only slightly out of spec. I could change the speech speed from fast to slow (which is fun to play around with) but set a some frequencies it would garble the speech quite a lot & other frequencies not at all adjusting within the acceptable range of normal sounding speech.
IMG_0719 (resized).JPG
Quoted from barakandl:$25
http://www.arcadeshop.com/i/1487/tms5200nl-speech-synthesizer-chip.htm
$100 for 10pcs if you are willing to do the aliexpress gamble.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32987984465.html
C15 looks original and the original ones are almost always failed. The three diodes below it get quite warm which cooks that capacitor.
And a lessor known source - love the nice quote on quality from their description!
"The current batch is from September 1981 and was stored in an air-conditioned warehouse and each bar is individually sealed with dehumidifying granules in ESD bags. These TMS5200NL come in the best quality we've ever had from these ICs"
https://coinop.mally.eu/produkt.php?bestellnr=102650&details=1
Quoted from jj44114:And for anyone else out there, NEVER remove this chip unless absolutely necessary. The legs break off most of the time you try to pry one out, and you end up here.
I'll agree to this statement
Quoted from barakandl:$25
http://www.arcadeshop.com/i/1487/tms5200nl-speech-synthesizer-chip.htm
$100 for 10pcs if you are willing to do the aliexpress gamble.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32987984465.html
C15 looks original and the original ones are almost always failed. The three diodes below it get quite warm which cooks that capacitor.
I saw this as well. Might be a lot easier to buy that instead of fix my issue, but ill give it a try anyway.
Quoted from ChrisHibler:If it’s just the one pin that is shown in the pic then using GPEs procedure makes this an easy fix.
—
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
Http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com/ - The new place for pinball repair info
Well...... it may be 4. But they are all broken at the same point.
Quoted from Joydivision:If R9 is out of spec it can also cause garbled speech as well - worth checking the value with the schematic.
Thanks, ill keep that in mind. Ill send a video of what it sounds like once i get my 5200 repaired or replaced.
Quoted from Joydivision:Do you mean the same speech is either garbled or clear every time repeated over & over, or random garbled speech?
I guess if it's the same speech effected every time it would be a ROM.
I installed a variable resistor in place of R9 to see if R9 was the cause of garbled speech I was getting quite a bit - R9 was only slightly out of spec. I could change the speech speed from fast to slow (which is fun to play around with) but set a some frequencies it would garble the speech quite a lot & other frequencies not at all adjusting within the acceptable range of normal sounding speech.
[quoted image]
Yes, it plays the same everytime. "Emporer something somethin awaits." Somehow "Ming" has turned into two unintelligible syllables. other voice commands are also a bit hard to understand.
Quoted from Joydivision:And a lessor known source - love the nice quote on quality from their description!
"The current batch is from September 1981 and was stored in an air-conditioned warehouse and each bar is individually sealed with dehumidifying granules in ESD bags. These TMS5200NL come in the best quality we've ever had from these ICs"
https://coinop.mally.eu/produkt.php?bestellnr=102650&details=1
I think the extra description is because all of these TMS5200 chips where made in a crap way where the legs corrode over time to the point they turn into dust. TI, Fairchild and probably some others get this fail mode from their chips made in the early 80s. Someone mentioned silver was the cause but I am not really sure.
Quoted from Dbfootball:Well...... it may be 4. But they are all broken at the same point.
Well then...don't make the problem harder than it is. Scabbing a leg onto the broken part is simple.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info
Quoted from ChrisHibler:If it’s just the one pin that is shown in the pic then using GPEs procedure makes this an easy fix.
—
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
Http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com/ - The new place for pinball repair info
Quoted from G-P-E:1 -- clean remaining pins *carefully* so that you don't break any more pins off. I use Tarnex, slight rubbing then rinse.
2 -- Get yourself a 28 pin machine pin socket (machine pin sockets have exposed contact areas on top).
3 -- Insert remaining pins into new 28 pin socket.
4 -- solder the IC into the top side of the socket (not too much heat as the plastic frame will melt and pins might move)
5 -- for broken pin(s), add small wire from socket entry hole and solder directly to remaining pin stub.
Best wire to use for this is a small, solid wire such as a lead cut from a 1/4W resistor.
6 -- the 28 pin IC socket is now part of your 28 pin IC. Insert that into your existing IC socket.
To keep pins from melting loose and moving while soldering, I actually insert the machine pin socket into another socket to hold the pins in place.
If there are old legs stuck in existing IC socket, you may need to replace socket.
Ok. I think i fixed it right and i am now back to square one. Ill try replacing the caps with a caps kit next. The Speech comes out but is muffled making it hard to understand. And ming is still unintelligible. Ill also replace the pot on the coin door which is very touchy.
BBFF0649-F32D-455C-B0C0-BD9611DE09C6 (resized).jpegDid you check the traces on the back of the board? Specifically from the sound/speech pots? Without hearing what you are describing I can say that mine had an issue, garbled noise/speech. It ended up being a pad had worked it's way loose, and the trace was broken. A jumper wire fixed it right up.
Marco should have the coin door pot, probably can be found elsewhere too.
Quoted from jlbintn:Did you check the traces on the back of the board? Specifically from the sound/speech pots? Without hearing what you are describing I can say that mine had an issue, garbled noise/speech. It ended up being a pad had worked it's way loose, and the trace was broken. A jumper wire fixed it right up.
Marco should have the coin door pot, probably can be found elsewhere too.
Ill check again. I switched out door pot. Changed all capacitors. But nothing new. I purchased a new U2 and U5 rom for the board and purchased new speakers. I’ll see if that makes any bit of a difference. I know speakers won’t but what the hell
The U2 and U5 chips did not change the speech pattern. From other threads i have read it seems to be very common for the game . Many appear to have it garbled a bit to where "emperor ming awaits" sound like "emperor garble garble awaits".
I have same issue. For me it goes like this: Switch on my Centaur and usually the speech is perfect to start with (although not always). Then after 10-20 minutes of play the speech begins to garble. The speech is different every time, leading me to believe its not the ROMs, and suspect the hard to get TMS5200 ic. I have tested continuity from each of this ic's pins to the circuit board below and all are good (didn't want to remove this chip for fear of breaking the pins). Caps have been replaced and power to the board is good and board properly earthed. Swapped PIA's, 6810 RAM chip - no difference.
Headers have been reflowed and board visually inspected / tested for any breaks in traces etc. Cant find anything wroing.
Just to add another source of TMS5200nl chips in case the other couple of suppliers sell out.
Looking at the same page I see Jennings have some UDN7180A IC's at a good price of $16.00 for Williams games - they are impossible to find with only 1 other supplier that has genuine NOS chips.
Quoted from AlanJ:The speech is different every time, leading me to believe its not the ROMs,
It's not uncommon for a bad ROM to output different data on subsequent reads.
Does all speech go bad at the same time or is it just some words? If it's only some words/phrases, which ones? Press the test button on the S&T board to find out.
Quoted from Joydivision:Just to add another source of TMS5200nl chips in case the other couple of suppliers sell out.
http://www.jenningsslots.com/
Looking at the same page I see Jennings have some UDN7180A IC's at a good price of $16.00 for Williams games - they are impossible to find with only 1 other supplier that has genuine NOS chips.
@joydivision, FYI...I emailed Jennings Slots at the address specified on their web page. It came back a undeliverable. I'm not sure they are in business any longer.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info
I just resolved an issue with all of the speech being garbled on my Flash Gordon's Squawk & Talk. I had replaced the capacitors and pots about two years before, so I tried replacing the old chip sockets. That didn't seem to help. I ordered two new PIAs and a TSM5200NL to troubleshoot. I tried the PIAs first, and they fixed my issue!
Quoted from bluebomber:I just resolved an issue with all of the speech being garbled on my Flash Gordon's Squawk & Talk. I had replaced the capacitors and pots about two years before, so I tried replacing the old chip sockets. That didn't seem to help. I ordered two new PIAs and a TSM5200NL to troubleshoot. I tried the PIAs first, and they fixed my issue!
That's good you fixed the problem, also good to know a PIA can cause this too. Doesn't hurt to have a spare TMS5200 chip on hand for the future.
Was either of the old PIA's the AMI brand? As that particular brand are known to fail a lot.
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