I miss video modes in the pinball machines. Playing IJ the other night (which I believe implemented video well into the theme) had me nostalgic for video modes.

With color dmd, full screen lcd (JJP), someday Stern doing something with new video system, and new boutiques leveraging color screens - why the hell not.

I know, some of you are LOUD in saying video is not pinball and just slows things down. That's why one could cancel out of the video if the programmer builds it that way. Best of both worlds - for those of us who like video modes.

I challenge Stern, JJP, JPOP (who likes to be different) and the new boutiques - make a video challenge mode for those of us who long for the complete pinball experience.

Flame suit on by purists.

Hmm...then why did you take so much time programming color into DMD for CCC if you just want to whack the ball. (btw thank you)

So let's make excuses for Stern (or anyone else) because it would detract from the game code but Williams was able to pull it off? Excuses. If games in the past could find time to fit them in so can the new uber talented programmers with trading cards of themselves.

I don't play competitively so I don't care. But for those that do a suggestion was made earlier to be able to disable video modes in the menu system. Problem solved.

Walking Dead and Metallica are two very cool ideas mentioned in this thread where a video mode would have been cool. There is a place for video modes especially now in pinball. In the 90s everyone points out competing with arcade games. Well now your competing with phone apps. Geometry Dash and Flappy are some of the most popular iPhone games - and you know what - they could both work within confines of a DMD.

Those who are pinball purists I get it. But there's room for both of us in this hobby with an optional menu option. We want our video mode.

Yup, dismissed it as fast as I blinked. Last I checked games in the past with video modes had pretty solid code. So because it may take more time and add to the process we should just pass on it? That's as silly as it reads my friend. How many apps are in the app store right now? Lots of coders have no clue I guess.

JJP is using 128x32 2 color DMD? And the bit resolution does not limit the ability for a video mode. Come on.

You should sell STTNG, Congo, AFM (your avatar) and a few others in your collection if you feel so strongly. They all have video modes you apparently despise.

Agree to disagree my friend. But telling someone that differs with your opinion they have "no clue" when it's been successfully done in the past gets 0 style points.

70% of pinsiders (so far in poll) are a few complainers?

BTW...I agree on CV needed more pinball modes.

I respect your opinion even though I disagree with it. However, your post reads like everyone other than you, because you're a programmer, is ignorant and wrong. Do you know how many of the 70% in the poll are programmers too?

In the end, as a consumer who is paying $6000-$8000k for a game we have every right to voice our requests (wants) to pinball manufacturers and still expect complete code with cool new video modes. They can choose to listen or pass on the idea. Is coding difficult? I'll share a secret, consumers don't care. We just want the finished product to dazzle and delight us. And smart companies listen to their customers and adjust their cost structure to make it work.

So a car company should not make their cars "smart or entertainment cars" with integrated dashboards and features because it's hard to program and will take away from engine performance? They should just focus on gas mileage and engine performance because it's all about driving.

I personally love the video modes in IJ, AFM was a great tie in and enjoy playing cards with Riker in STTNG.

In TOTAN I enjoy being able to select my award in "make a wish" either points or gems to complete the sword. Indy500 I really like that the award is not random but rather I have a few quick seconds to toggle through the award with my flipper button to choose - adds to the "act fast" feel of the game. While these last two may not be full "video modes" to me they fall into the category and would be missed in the games. More control, albeit random, in my scoring. I dislike hitting scoops for "random" awards.

CV no argument that the video modes could be better and if removed may not be missed. Younger players like seeing them though when I owned the game in the past.

Fair points and I won't argue with you further on the dmd because I want you to keep contributing that awesome work to the hobby.

I still support video based games in pinball. I think they can also entertain those not currently playing. In Vegas the games with the most people standing behind them are the ones that add another layer to player interactivity - video modes. They are all simple "choose adventure" type modes but they add that dazzle and I have a little control on top of the reels just spinning and paying out $$.

Cancel it out or choose to turn off in menu system for those that don't like the stoppage. For many of us born during the video and pinball era, both in a game is like a complete sundae with the cherry on top.

Respectfully, because we offer a compromise to those of you who don't want video modes - turn them off in the menu options. It's not don't do them at all.

See my post replying to Markmon think I addressed this already.

Respect the hell out of Keith but he needs to listen to his customers too. Guess it will take another boutique to shock JJP into innovating more with that beautiful color display they have. My bet is Keith will be overruled by his boss if trumped by a competitor and receives fanfare.

I remember when Microsoft was dead set about not supporting iPad with it's Office suite. When money starts to shift out of your pocket so many dead set stances shift like the wind.

It won't be the whole reason, but likely a contributor as one starts to compare features & toys on games with equally deep code. And if implemented well with these awesome new displays, could position someone as a slight more innovative or closer to audience (again with a turn off in menu).

I see Lyman and Johnson in my head with the dueling banjoes song playing, as the top of the food chain. Then out of no where a coder just may innovate a new feature around them that has them thinking - hey what is a guitar doing in this song, I thought we were playing banjoes? (I love both these guys just saying stances should be re-examined from time to time)

Don't know about Spooky great ?

So what about option in menu to disable video mode are you guys against again?

Agreed.

Maybe we need to do this like the LIONMAN thread.

Bring back video modes!

Way to respectfully disagree my friend.

Shooting a ball into a scoop and waiting for a mode to start is stop and go. Time watch wise it's shorter than a full video mode but nonetheless stop and go. It's still stopping gameplay which was his point. Once the gameplay is stopped, another 30 seconds isn't a big deal as flow has already been stopped.

Right. And most designers nowadays are reusing things of the past. Star rollovers sound familiar? Saving ball opportunity in the outlane? Many are reintroducing old functions and tricks of the past.

Yes the thread title is bring back video modes. The point of this thread is with dmd technology, color and display/coding capabilities improving we are asking for video modes to come back in the game & enhance them - dazzle us because its 2014. You're telling me JJP couldn't do something awesome with that LCD display? I think they can. So do ~70% of other pinsiders.

(directed not just towards popbumperpete) I'm amazed at many of you who are always so dead set against change. It's ok not to like video modes and be a pinball purist. But to not even want them as an option to be turned on/off for the other 70% of the community speaking up is mind blowing. I sincerely respect your opinion and position, is it so hard to respect ours?

LOL. Ems holy cow

Fair enough. Earlier in the thread I mentioned "pinsiders" but I will stand corrected on that point out.

So far that's over 156 people - but not representative of all of pinside. Still a decent representative sample so far don't you think? Sort of how a representative sample is for political polls.

Maybe I should go to RGP to expand the universe some more to keep your attention.

Curious comment from your clarification statement. What % of the playing and "paying" public do you think pinside and RGP represent? I would guess very high.

My friend good to see you come back at me again in yet another thread. It's been only how many hours.

We've debated respectfully, well almost all of us. What is your issue now popbumper?

I'm interested to see how the poll continues to evolve and others to share their opinions for all of us to weigh in on and discuss without calling other people stupid.

Well stated. And I think it's fair for us to ask for video modes to be prioritized higher than maybe cabinet clear coat & bling toppers we can buy in the secondary market anyway - just examples only.

As pin prices go up, feature/toy/code requests also go up to realize value in the extra costs.

First, I sincerely appreciate the thorough well thought out response.

You provided a lot of math so let me try to simplify this with a political opinion polling analogy (representative sampling for directional learning). We all hear/read about these on TV, newspaper, websites and the leaders of our nation leverage them for direction, trending, and decision making.

If there are roughly 2,500 national polls conducted each year and each poll contacts 1,000 participants then only 2,500,000 of the nation's 200 million adults get to participate each year. That would represent 1.25% sampling - representative sample. Of course, within that sampling you'd want mixture of age, race, sex, etc... to continue representative sampling.

So, back to pinball. If you were exploring interest in a video mode for pinball machines, using your working assumptions Stern's AC/DC sold over 7,000 units. Using our representative sampling we would only need to talk to 88 (I rounded up) or 1.25% of the owners to gauge their opinion with diversity in the sample.

Moving on to the 1M who have given the game more of a glance. Quick math would equate that to needing to touch 12,500 people. As I know this number was a SWAG assumption, I would also submit that glancing bystanders at public locations are typically a much smaller percentage playing pinball on location. There would need to be a % accounted for pinball enthusiasts/hobbyists, number of repeat games on said machines to drill this number down more. But why continue this math exercise?

I maintain that a representative sampling on pinside is valid for opinion polling. Could it/should it be augmented by general glancing players to increase sampling, sure have at it. Do you have a economical way to do this? If you wanted to, sure with online survey software and a database partner to segment users. Will the industry take the time to do this, very likely not. But like a good debate, let's not get distracted by statistics that complicate topics, but back to a more logical argument.

Will a glancing customer care about deep code, tournament scoring or wizard modes? I'll take a swag and say no. Will a glancing customer say wow, look at that machine theme, the lights, the bells and whistles. I'll take a swag and say yes. Now will that glancing customer see someone playing a guitar hero (example only) video mode in color LCD while walking by and say cool a game within a game. My swag is yes.

Back to owners, I think we've maintained that they are largely ones who care about deep code, wizard modes, video modes oh and always bling. So based on my math, we have a good chance of polling those owners on pinside.

Trying to understand this point so if it went over my head, sincerely apologize. My point is whether it's a topper, side rails or code - they all cost money and factor into the costs. Code is largely dollars & days as I like to simplify summarizing it. Is your point video modes increase the pinball rules development and thus the timeline of overall game delivery? I get that. But to a Product Manager it's still in it's simplest form dollars and days. If I'm missing something please advise not trying to be sarcastic.

Again, respect your experience and opinion. The other side of that quarter are the number of casual family members and players I've witnessed who encounter video modes on games like IJ and AFM. The first time they see it they are not sure what to do - agreed. But they almost always turn to me or tell me after, that is SO (emphasizing so) cool!! It's the unexpected surprise that excites them. I've even had kids in my gameroom say "How do you get that video mode again to shoot at the bar?".

What surprises me is pinsiders that have responded to the poll so far in this thread are in favor of video modes too. I would have thought I was in the minority since people who own games would tire of them or are more purists. I'm of the segment that grew up in arcades with pinball. Not pinball with arcade games - so the combo is great to me. But if the industry is trying to pull more people into pinball, the "wow, so cool" effect is what I thought you'd be after. Not super super wizard mode (which I respect).

Agreed time=money. Let's not waste money building toppers (pinball manufacturers), cabinet protectors, etc...but on great code, modes and video mode or two.

I see it as a video mode in pinball is about having a sundae and putting a small cherry on top. The sundae is still the star but damn does that cherry taste good for that one bite. Jetpack Joyride, Doodle jump, Geometry Dash, Flappy have been some of the top downloaded mobile app games and guess what - they're one/two button games. Yes you can memorize patterns, but you can also do that in timeless classics like DK, Pacman, etc. So what? It's the cherry not the sundae. Why not recognize the resurgence and popularity of quick basic video games and embrace a few video modes here and there.

Honestly, I get bored with some of the pinball machine regular modes same way - repetitive. Keep bashing the toy, destroy the toy, bash it some more. Everything gets repetitive. But keep coming back to pinball for the randomness of physics if just off.

I loved my Mattel football game!

It has pinball arcade on it. So why even bother with this site or the hobby. Juvenile humor is cool.

I respect Keith, industry experience, and enjoy/buy games he helps make for us to enjoy. Glad he entered the conversation.

The poll is up to 73% interested in video modes (with 286 total pinsiders participating so far expressing their opinion). Keith's entitled to his opinions/preferences as we are to ours. It's a good discussion and no one is ignoring each others points. I would say the customer(s) are always right, but that would be juvenile.

Yet without them we don't have jobs. Something to that circle of life thing.

I know, I'm just crazy to think for $8000 I should get a toy that is complete. Crazy rabbit tricks are for kids.

Haha. Keep your head down at all times when programming markman, pay no attention to anyone else. Really, if you build it they really will come.

Newsflash, I understand Keith doesn't like video modes. How is a discussion with him on the topic ignoring him? It's called respectful debate. BTW...last I checked Keith doesn't walk on water. Wait, do you Keith? He's a very cool dude, but he has an opinion like the rest of us assholes. When a poll sampling of our peers is against his personal opinion, we should all stop requesting/discussing it because Keith doesn't like it?? These are not the droids you're looking for badbilly. Keith is a jedi!! OMG LOL markmon

Off topic: What's going on with you markmon? You've always been a reasonable debater on here, why so off the deep end lately?

My passion started at the arcades playing video games, not searching for pinball. I too, fell in love with the table physics and randomness impacting gameplay (also while I prefer games like Madden). However, even completing modes becomes repetitive for me.

Coming from same origin as you two, as you know I enjoy the video modes. I also enjoy the super cool sequences for example that start a multiball. TAF "Showtime" is an adrenaline rush every time - and that stops the action of the game for it to do the sequence. Even LOTR programmed by Keith start of multiball sequence (getting the player to check out the dmd) is such an adrenaline rush - but stops the game from wacking the ball around for a few seconds. I love it!! I'm surprised you two don't. A video sequence to introduce a new challenge to the game is the cats balls. Now, I get a similar "cool video mode" in other pinball games as it's a new challenge incorporated into the theme - if done well like IJ.

I get you two may not like video modes and we have similar origin stories. All good. Make sure to vote no in the poll.

I'm familiar with programmers and we addressed this earlier in the thread. Here's Keith's quote btw

Months? I don't know why you programmers have to try and belittle non-programmers as "they just don't get it". We get it. Dollars and days. It's a simple trade off decision the product manager, (who writes requirements) project manager (who manages overall development, costs, timetables) & the programmer all make - not the programmer making all alone. Checks and balances.

The point another poster summarized, is we don't need to cram video modes for video mode sake into games. But where they can augment a theme and experience why not? TWD with a shooter mode would have fit in nicely.

Yet, I applaud you loudly for still building one into your game because your customers asked for it.

I didn't know one was in there and now will be taking a closer look at AMH. For the simple reason, I appreciate what you guys are doing. I also appreciate you keeping it real on the topic of programming a video mode rather than using it as a crutch. If a video mode supports a theme and people are requesting one, it's doable.

Many times first time entering a video mode people are slightly confused. But the first time I beat wizard mode in SS I thought I broke the machine. Then I enjoyed it thereafter.

Lionman!! (oops wrong thread)

Bump...rock the vote.

Well isn't there a CCE version out there who may? See I can be clever too markmon.

Morning bump for more voting in the poll. We are now at 339 total votes and 75% in favor of video modes.

353 votes do I hear 400? Bump

75% of 357 pinsiders

Love to get the poll to 500 and see if directional learning changes

Yep