(Topic ID: 231915)

Bring back bounce-back outlanes


By westofrome

5 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 50 posts
  • 24 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 82 days ago by Isochronic_Frost
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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11
#1 5 months ago

Why does no one use bounce-back outlane posts with one-way gates in the inlanes anymore, a la Centaur? Is this another Gary rule? You'd think it would show up at least every dozen games to keep things varied down there.

In conclusion, bring back bounce-back posts.

#2 5 months ago

I think they really hurt the flow of the inlane guides. Picture shooting a nice ramp combo but every time the ball drops into the inlane it has to bounce off the one way gate and wiggle around, and then roll to the flipper at some random speed.

#3 5 months ago

Yes, I just played some Special Force over the weekend and it has this on both outlanes...i would like to see a comeback as well...

#4 5 months ago
Quoted from zacaj:

I think they really hurt the flow of the inlane guides. Picture shooting a nice ramp combo but every time the ball drops into the inlane it has to bounce off the one way gate and wiggle around, and then roll to the flipper at some random speed.

Fair point, but surely something that can be engineered around- for instance, with curved gates?

16
#5 5 months ago
Quoted from zacaj:

I think they really hurt the flow of the inlane guides. Picture shooting a nice ramp combo but every time the ball drops into the inlane it has to bounce off the one way gate and wiggle around, and then roll to the flipper at some random speed.

Why does every game have to flow like Fabio's hair? Randomness and variability are what make pinball so special. It's not programmed like a video game.

#6 5 months ago

Do any other games beside Centaur, Viking, and Special Force use these? It looks like Demo might have have been planned to have one at the beginning
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Quoted from Pahuffman:

Why does every game have to flow like Fabio's hair? Randomness and variability are what make pinball so special. It's not programmed like a video game.

Personally I agree. I'd love to see more weird things at the bottom like these, or inverted lanes, or pop bumpers, but I think this is the reason why *Stern* doesn't. The bottom lanes have become a very standardized thing that they probably don't want to mess with. PotC originally had an outlane pop bumper like WoZ but that was removed too

#7 5 months ago

Where does that Demo Man image come from?

The lack of varied bottoms is probably the greatest failure of modern pinball design.

#8 5 months ago
Quoted from westofrome:

Where does that Demo Man image come from?
The lack of varied bottoms is probably the greatest failure of modern pinball design.

That's what's in the parts manual. Not clear how it'd work because there's no post there either but they definitely had something going on. I think it's the same designer as Special Force too?

Every Stern game these days has two outlanes, two ramps, two orbits. It gets old. They've got a plastic mold of the 'perfect' inlane guide and they're using it as much as they can

#9 5 months ago

I had the joy of playing a very nice Flip Flop at (I think?) NWPAS and I would love to see a return of tricksy outlanes. Inverted outlanes are always a treat.

Quoted from westofrome:

The lack of varied bottoms is probably the greatest failure of modern pinball design.

I know where you can find some varied bottoms.

#10 5 months ago

I would like them to bring magna saves back like on black Knight and grand lizard.

-2
#11 5 months ago

In the end they are just kind of dumb. On Centaur they are just too easy, or, if you take the rubbers off, they don't work at all so what's the point? They are also prone to stupid issues like the gate not falling down fast enough, so you can lose the ball on an honest inlane.

There's a reason people like the standard inlane arrangement - because it works. Whenever they try to monkey with it it just doesn't work our right.

Pretty sure Gary Stern learned his lesson with Wheel of Fortune.

#12 5 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

In the end they are just kind of dumb. On Centaur they are just too easy, or, if you take the rubbers off, they don't work at all so what's the point? They are also prone to stupid issues like the gate not falling down fast enough, so you can lose the ball on an honest inlane.
There's a reason people like the standard inlane arrangement - because it works. Whenever they try to monkey with it it just doesn't work our right.
Pretty sure Gary Stern learned his lesson with Wheel of Fortune.

Eh, Wheel of Fortune was the most interesting game they've done in ages...pretty sure theme and unfinished code are bigger issues than the refreshing, awesome, creative bottom configuration

#13 5 months ago

Problem with pinheads is they are tired of the same old stuff, but then complain if a game doesn't feel like everything else.

Game has a linear ruleset? Complaints.
Not a fan layout? Complaints
Punishes you for being accurate? Complaints
Does not flow faster than your body after 2am taco bell the night before? Complaints

#14 5 months ago
Quoted from dung:

Problem with pinheads is they are tired of the same old stuff, but then complain if a game doesn't feel like everything else.
Game has a linear ruleset? Complaints.
Not a fan layout? Complaints
Punishes you for being accurate? Complaints
Does not flow faster than your body after 2am taco bell the night before? Complaints

Oh good lord! This isn't a "pinhead" issue it's a human issue. You see there a several types of people in this world. Some people like certain things while others hate that very same thing. Have you ever heard the saying " you can't please everyone"? No matter what you do there will be some person that doesn't like it so you try to make something with the least amount of complaints, knowing that some people will complain no matter what. If the majority of the people enjoy it you call it a success!

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#15 5 months ago
Quoted from TxJay:

Oh good lord! This isn't a "pinhead" issue it's a human issue. You see there a several types of people in this world. Some people like certain things while others hate that very same thing. Have you ever heard the saying " you can't please everyone"? No matter what you do there will be some person that doesn't like it so you try to make something with the least amount of complaints, knowing that some people will complain no matter what. If the majority of the people enjoy it you call it a success! [quoted image]

There are definitely individual pinheads who complain about the lack of originality and then complain when something changes it up. "No, not that way!" "Well how did you want it then?" "uhh". They're tired of the same old but haven't actually thought about why it is the same old.

#16 5 months ago

Because Stern is selling to the mass market and the mass market has settled on what the standard bottom should be. I'm surprised if I see more than one inlane. Plus I'm sure operators rather have outlanes drain than be infinitely savable.

It's one of the reasons why I love my Space Odyssey in my collection. It at least does something very different than every other game in my collection. (And guests who aren't into pinball love its variation on slings)

#17 5 months ago

I really like the right-outlane-to-shooter-lane passage on JJP Pirates of the Caribbean. Doesn't affect the inlane flow at all, and successfully nudging the ball back into play is so satisfying.

#18 5 months ago
Quoted from oyvindmo:

I really like the right-outlane-to-shooter-lane passage on JJP Pirates of the Caribbean. Doesn't affect the inlane flow at all, and successfully nudging the ball back into play is so satisfying.

Nice and cheap to manufacture too. Win win.

I'd like to see more kickbacks

#19 5 months ago

New games are easier the slingshot post is level with the outlane post older games outlane post lower then slingshot post more drains

#20 5 months ago

As stated correctly above, it's a trade off. Both are cool. But to date, you can't have both.

You trade off what I call "inlane swoosh" which you get with solid flipper frames when the ball comes screaming in from the playfield to the flippers at max speed -- for "super fun outlanes"

In my book, the best inlane action is Barracora, since the playfield entry to the inlanes is wide open (the opposite of most EMs and Whirlwind)

And in my book, the best outlanes are Viking, since it's fun to often get the ball back into play, and not worry about the outlanes too much. Centaur is good -- but the return rate is very low on my machine (it depends on where the posts are located, and the twist/flatness of the playfield) -- BUT when you reduce risk on the outlanes, you have to increase risk down the middle, which means wider GAP -- (see BALLY 80's games) -- which means FEWER slap-saves, and I'd say that slap saves are near the top of my list for what makes pinball great.

So... If someone could invent a situation where there is no trade-off among all three variables... That would be innovative and magical. I don't think it's happening.

The only other compromise would be to have ONE outlane save on one side...

I think it's safe to say they will never come back. Ghostbusters already experimented with a wider flipper gap, and reminded us how much we don't like that. Ever. But we accept it in older games.

TL;DR ?
RIP: saveable outlanes forever. bye bye: Trading "inlane swoosh" AND "fun slap-saves" for "fun outlanes" is a no-brainer bad trade. Idea: DOA.

-mof

#21 5 months ago

I 100% agree with the OP, some games I love more do because of this feature. Viking comes to mind that I haven’t seen in this thread. I don’t want it in every game, but when appropriate it would be nice to see again.

OP- check out Spirit with its little flippers that you can use in the outlanes as well, awesome feature.

#22 5 months ago
Quoted from practicalsteve:

Viking comes to mind that I haven’t seen in this thread.

#24 5 months ago

Agreed. Big fan of outlane bounce backs. Mainly because I suck and like a second chance

#25 5 months ago

I'd like to see another Beast's Lair a la Paragon!

#26 5 months ago
Quoted from westofrome:

Eh, Wheel of Fortune was the most interesting game they've done in ages...pretty sure theme and unfinished code are bigger issues than the refreshing, awesome, creative bottom configuration

It sold like 300 units.

Refreshing or not nobody wanted the damn thing and you won't see them do that again.

#27 5 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

It sold like 300 units.
Refreshing or not nobody wanted the damn thing and you won't see them do that again.

So if Star Wars had a freaking bounce back gate it woulda sold 300 units?

#28 5 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

It sold like 300 units.
Refreshing or not nobody wanted the damn thing and you won't see them do that again.

That game had too much going against it to ever sell in volume. Terrible license, unfinished code, the art was meh at best. Add in a nonstandard bottom and it's a wonder that the game ever saw the production line.

It would be interesting if they had a non-standard bottom on a game that had a good license, code, art, etc...

#29 5 months ago

Was Indiana Jones Pinball Adventure the last game to have this?

#30 5 months ago
Quoted from soapblox:

Was Indiana Jones Pinball Adventure the last game to have this?

Not quite the same thing. Full Throttle, Alien, and JJPotC have the same thing as IJ though

#31 5 months ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Not quite the same thing. Full Throttle, Alien, and JJPotC have the same thing as IJ though

That's why Heighway failed - the slightly different bottoms.

#32 5 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

That game had too much going against it to ever sell in volume. Terrible license, unfinished code, the art was meh at best. Add in a nonstandard bottom and it's a wonder that the game ever saw the production line.
It would be interesting if they had a non-standard bottom on a game that had a good license, code, art, etc...

The most successful of the recent games I can think of is WOZ.

I personal loathe the bottom on that game and which it were a standard body without the dumb outlane save games, but I'm obviously in the minority. A lot of people love that game and it's JJPs best seller.

Quoted from westofrome:

So if Star Wars had a freaking bounce back gate it woulda sold 300 units?

Yes exactly.

Well, I think it's more of a "don't f with the formula" kind of thing. Steve Ritchie has NEVER done a weird bottom game why is he gonna start now?

#33 5 months ago

Imagine how long it would take to play a 4 player game of Iron Maiden with bounceback gates on each side.

#34 5 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Well, I think it's more of a "don't f with the formula" kind of thing. Steve Ritchie has NEVER done a weird bottom game why is he gonna start now?

Yeah but he also invented magnasave

#35 5 months ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Yeah but he also invented magnasave

And elaborate subway systems.

#36 5 months ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Yeah but he also invented magnasave

Kickbacks show up on a number of his games too, which lets people save the ball from an outlane. Steve Ritchie knows his games can be tough and the player needs a little help.

But I do kinda think he's out of original ideas. I'd be thrilled if he just copied something like Skateballs bottom.

#37 5 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Steve Ritchie has NEVER done a weird bottom game why is he gonna start now?

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Literally Steve Ritchie's first game.

#38 5 months ago
Quoted from Pahuffman:

[quoted image]
Literally Steve Ritchie's first game.

Haha Steve himself said he is embarrassed to have his name on that game. It was his first so.... I actually enjoy AA.

Embryon also has a de facto Bounce-Back outlane (when the flip save is not engaged).

#39 5 months ago
Quoted from westofrome:

That's why Heighway failed - the slightly different bottoms.

You leave my bottom out of this. :p

#40 5 months ago

Can't forget Vector.

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#41 5 months ago
Quoted from Pahuffman:

[quoted image]
Literally Steve Ritchie's first game.

This is literally Steve's worst game, and it's also literally the game where he learned how NOT to design a game.

He also literally figured out that the only way to make Atari's terrible widebodies somewhat palatable was to literally do a normal bottom!

Thanks for the history lesson though.

#42 5 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

This is literally Steve's worst game, and it's also literally the game where he learned how NOT to design a game.

He also literally figured out that the only way to make Atari's terrible widebodies somewhat palatable was to literally do a normal bottom!

Thanks for the history lesson though.

You know what they say - never say never! Also STTNG has oddly shaped slings and it's considered one of his masterpieces by many, myself included. Just because AA is a bad game doesn't make it untrue.

#43 5 months ago
Quoted from Pahuffman:

Also STTNG has oddly shaped slings and...

I don;t know how much of a fan is of those short lane guides either to be honest. I know he's all for people lengthening them.

3 weeks later
#44 4 months ago

Zaccaria's Ski Jump (1978) is in the club too. Never seen one of these in person.

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#45 4 months ago
Quoted from westofrome:

Zaccaria's Ski Jump (1978) is in the club too. Never seen one of these in person.
[quoted image]

There was one at the UK Pinball Party. Played it a few times. Ambivalent hand wave - preferred the other Zac EMs.

#46 4 months ago
Quoted from oyvindmo:

I really like the right-outlane-to-shooter-lane passage on JJP Pirates of the Caribbean. Doesn't affect the inlane flow at all, and successfully nudging the ball back into play is so satisfying.

I've got over 100 games on two different POtCs and I have never gotten the ball* to go into the "Escape the Locker". On both machines there is no rubber on the inside post, so the ball just always goes straight down the outlane. The first machine I played I thought the operator took the rubber off of the post to prevent saves. When I found one to play at another location, it too was missing the rubber, so I now assume they are being delivered from JJP like that.

* On one machine the tilt setting is so incredibly sensitive there is no chance to save the ball without tilting, so I don't even try any more to save it.

#47 4 months ago

I’ve never played a game with inverted Inlanes and I own a City Slicker that I’m rebuilding. I’m really excited to play it!

2 weeks later
#48 3 months ago

Great post and discussion for us newbies to learn. But talk about a lot going on at the bottom? Magic Town (Williams 1967) looks like they took the top half of two games and put them together for one playfield.

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3 weeks later
#49 82 days ago

Bump to add the awesome double open flipper configuration of Bally Kick-Off.

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#50 82 days ago
Quoted from westofrome:

Bump to add the awesome double open flipper configuration of Bally Kick-Off. [quoted image]

This would make me so angry but at the same time, nailing the bounce-back to the bottom flippers looks to be extremely satisfying!

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