(Topic ID: 128569)

Bride Of Pinbot novice repair help

By bradleehall

8 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 32 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 years ago by maestro
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Linked Games

#1 8 years ago

I am in the process of repairing a Williams Bride Of Pinbot machine. This is my first pinball game and I have learned a lot and have a lot to learn. I need help with a switch problem. The Right Outlane, Left Standup, Outhole, and Right Slingshot switches only work about 1% of the time. After looking in the Operations Manual, I found that these switches share a common "orange-gray" circuit. I am wondering if this is a board problem or a connection issue. Solenoids all work on test mode so the problem is in the switch path. The only major component I have replaced was the CPU with a Rottendog WPC 89 because of severe acid damage from the batteries. I have repaired many other problems but this one has been frustrating. I am hoping that a member of this site could point me in the right direction. Thanks for your time.

#2 8 years ago

Was there alkaline damage to the switch connector? Was it replaced? Then check all the switches in the column. Make sure each wire is well connected with a light tug. Do the same with the diodes on each of the switches

#3 8 years ago

Thanks for the reply. There wasn't any damage to the connectors and I didn't replace them. Tomorrow I will check all switch connections and diodes for the four switches and let you know what I find.

#4 8 years ago

Is that all there is on that column(curcuit)? If there is anything else Checkk those too

#5 8 years ago

My repair manual shows these 4 switches on this column. They are the ones I am having problems with. At least I have it narrowed down to this circuit.

#6 8 years ago

I checked the connections on all 4 switches for this circuit including the diodes. All appear to be soldered well and I even reseated the removable wire from the Right Outlane switch. I guess to be sure, I would need to go over every terminal with a soldering iron. I am going to try to find the connection for this circuit and where it attaches to a controller in the back box. I get very confused trying to understand the schematics in the manual.

#7 8 years ago

I searched the Operations Manual and found this switch circuit is connected to the CPU on J206 and J208. I unplugged the connectors and do not see any sign of a problem. I even tried hooking both connectors up to J207 and J209 since they are wired to J206 and J208 on the board. None of this fixed the issue.

#8 8 years ago

First, do you know the wires are well seated in the connector? You can test continuity from the connector to the first switch on that column. With the machine in switch test mode press down on the wires while activating one of the problem switches.

If this doesn't work you need to isolate further.

So there's a way to test the switch matrix on the board itself. With those 2 connectors removed boot the machine up and go into switch test mode. Use an alligator jumper wire and clip on to one of the row pins and then touch the column pins. You should see and hear the switches being activated. If you have a problem with the switches during this test you have isolated it to the board itself.

#9 8 years ago

Thanks for this information. I will try this in the next couple of days and let you know what I find out. I wish I had another CPU board to try. I have read a couple other threads where people are having compatibility problems with Rottendog replacement boards. One mentioned that the after market board would not work the chase light (helmet light) circuit which I am also having a problem with but this is not affecting game play so I was going to work on this later. Since my original CPU board was so damaged, I couldn't tell if I had the switch issue or the helmet light problem before I changed the board. It was expensive but I didn't have any luck tracking down a used one. Another thing that is curious is that once in a great while, all 4 switches will work during regular gameplay. I guess this could still either be a connection or the board.

#10 8 years ago

You should post pictures of the old board and ask one of the many board guys who frequent these boards for opinions. You can likely repair the board and sell the replacement.

Guys like johnwartjr, borygard, chris hibler. There's amazing talent here and I wouldn't count the old board dead until you get their opinions

#11 8 years ago

I just had some major issues with my BOP head switch (sw 67). It registered correctly in test mode however still would not sync. All switches in the same row and column worked in test mode. Drove me nuts. Was about to send the mpu out to Coinop Cauldrin but he told me it couldn't be on the board. Frustrated I went ahead and shot a game for the heck of it. Noticed the heart beat ramp switch would not register. Its on the same row or column as the head switch. This time in test mode this switch only worked when I pushed in with a little pressure at the end of stroke. At first when I removed the cap and inspected it looked fine (again). I tugged the wires to make sure the connection was fine. When I did that the switch registered. Weird! I looked closer and the diode which is connected to the outer legs of the switch was actually touching the middle leg as well. I bent it out and the switch started working as it should. Went out of test mode and the head synced right up.

This might not be your issue but take a look again at all the switches that share the same row/column. Make sure none of the diodes are not slightly touching where they are not supposed to.

#12 8 years ago

When you go into switch test mode, what happens when you activate each of the switches in the column one by one?

#13 8 years ago

Thanks everyone for the great information. This will definitely give me some other options to try. The old CPU board had a 3" circle of acid that drained down out of the batteries. I cleaned the board with vinegar to neutralize the acid and then cleaned it with 97% alcohol to remove any residue. After cleaning, I could see where the acid had ate away some of the pins that attached the IC chips to the board. With this much damage and assuming the acid was also conducting voltage across the board, I was guessing it is toast. I will definitely check all switches to make sure none of the diode leads are touching any of the other connections. At the start up, I sometimes get the message to check the switches I am having problems with. On the individual switch tests, they show open, and then when I manually activate them, they don't show as closing. Thanks again.

#14 8 years ago

The next question is checking the column line and making sure you have voltage on it. The return line will never see a switch closure if the column line doesn't have a voltage on it to begin with. If there is no voltage on the orange-grey line, then the column driver transistor probably needs to be replaced, because if it were shorted, you'd see other issues. That is an easy fix, and I can step you through it.

#15 8 years ago

I checked the fourth pin from the left that appears to be an orange wire with gray spots at connector J205 on the CPU board and have 11.81 volts.

#16 8 years ago

I double checked the wiring diagram in my manual and this is the correct orange-gray wire. The colors are hard to make out but they are in sequence from right to left and this is the 8th and final switch circuit on J205.

#17 8 years ago

The jumper technique for testing is good to see if the issue is on the board. You can also try testing each switch individually with a continuity test from your multimeter. If each switch tests good maybe start at the last switch i the row/column and actually desolder and remove the wires from the legs on the switches one at a time. See if this allows the other switches to work. If the switches start to work you may have just isolated your problem to the last switch. Also you could just go ahead and replace the diodes on each switch. I believe they are 1N004. Cheap and easy to try.

#18 8 years ago
Quoted from bradleehall:

I double checked the wiring diagram in my manual and this is the correct orange-gray wire. The colors are hard to make out but they are in sequence from right to left and this is the 8th and final switch circuit on J205.

Test for voltage on each switch now where that wire runs to make sure there is no break in it anywhere.

#19 8 years ago

More great advice everyone. I started to check the voltage at each switch but I get confused because of all the different colored wire. The orange gray wire from the CPU appears to run to the chase light board. I had assumed this wire would be common to all the switches in this circuit but they are all different and I am nervous about shorting something out if I am not sure what I'm looking for. Going back to the diodes, I decided to check them with my multimeter. I know that they will only pass voltage one way. With the machine powered down, I checked each one. 3 of the 4 read open one way and .545 the other. I'm not sure what value this is, maybe DC voltage. The Right Outlane diode reads shorted on both polarities. Could this be the component I have been looking for? It is very hard to make out the silver numbers but I can read N400 on the one in question. I even considered swapping this one for an identical one on a different string but I don't want to inadvertently cause another problem. Since Radio Shack went out of business, I will have to order any electrical components online.

#20 8 years ago

I am pretty sure, from memory, the diode is 1N4004. Sorry I left out the last 4 in my previous post. You can always double check your manual to confirm the diode. But I am pretty sure that is the one. It does suck about Radio Shack but not all of them are closed. Get on their site and do a locator. You might find one relatively close by. Or get online and order a pack of several of these. They are cheap and very common in pins. You will probably need another one someday.

Another option, if you have other pins, is to "borrow" one from another game and try it out. Or, if you have other pinheads nearby contact them and see if they have any in stock they'd part with. We tend to keep spare parts around. Either way get you at least a 10 pack for stock. Be sure to put the new one in the same direction as the old one.

Last option, and this is just if you are really impatient (don't want to wait for shipping), is to borrow a 1N4004 diode from another switch in your own game. Just make sure the switch you borrow from isn't on the same row/column you are working on.

Again, I seriously doubt it is on the board. Good luck and let us know.

#21 8 years ago
Quoted from bradleehall:

The Right Outlane diode reads shorted on both polarities. Could this be the component I have been looking for

Replace it. Also, if you're gonna stock up on diodes, just buy 1n4007's. They're rated at 1000v, and can be used anywhere. You don't have to use a 1n4001 or 1n4004. Makes no difference in modern versions of these rectifier diodes. Technically for switches, you could even use 1n4148's. They only see +12v on them. Bally used those for switches. But stick to the 1n4007, cause you can use them on switches & coils (and circuit boards). I usually just order 100 of these at a time.

#22 8 years ago

I should have taken the diode out of the circuit and tested it before I got my hopes up. I tracked down a compatible low voltage general purpose diode from a friend and changed it out. It didn't fix my problem. I checked the one I removed and it is OK once unsoldered from the machine. This switch may be at the beginning or end of the column I am working on and this could have caused the shorted reading. Also, I checked the voltage at each switch and have 11.8 volts on both sides of all 4 switches. These are the connections on either side of the diode. I would like to try to eliminate the switches starting from the end of the chain as someone suggested earlier but I can't tell what order they are in because the wires all run back into a bundle. My next plan is to map out the wire colors and see if I can figure out what order they are in. All of your help is greatly appreciated.

#23 8 years ago
Quoted from thedefog:

if you're gonna stock up on diodes, just buy 1n4007's. They're rated at 1000v, and can be used anywhere.

Very good info. I wasn't aware of this.

Bradleehall you are on the right track in thinking you need to start at the end and work your way back. Look at the wire matrix in your manual and see what color wire all the switches involved share. Make note of this. Are all of the switches that share this wire not working? If not then you can start at the working switch and physically work your way from there. Go to that switch and follow the shared wire to the next switch. You will have to actually get under the playfield and follow that wire to the next switch. If I didn't find any shorts (breaks, loose connections, naked spots) I'd unsolder that wire from the switch you just traced to. It should be the one you just followed up and another one, same color, that goes on to the next switch. Remove those from this switch and connect them together. Then retest the switches except of course the one you just took out of the line.

If none of the switches are working that share the same row/column then you will still have to get under the play field. Find the wire color you are looking for. Even better if you know where this wire comes off the board shake this group of wires at the back box while looking/feeling for it under the playfield. Find you color wire in that bunch. Follow it to the first switch it comes to. Then to the next and so on until it finally ends. Make notes of their order. Compare this to the book. If the order isn't the same as in the book make numbered notes I the matrix with PENCIL. Now you know for sure the order. Eliminate each switch from the last to the first in the same way I described above this should at least let you isolate the problem down to which switch you are having the issue.

Its not as much work as it sounds like. The jumper test works too. Unplug the plug from the board that contains the affected wire. Put and alligator clip to the pin of the suspect wire. To make sure it isn't touching other pins I fold a piece of paper, put it around the pin I want to clip to, I clip to it in a way that the paper is around the alligator clip keeping it from touching other pins. Next go to the switches one by one. Remove the suspect wire and now connect the other side of your jumper wire to where the suspect wire went. Go into test mode and test the switch. If it works, power the game off, reconnect at the switch and move to the next and repeat.

Order those diodes in case you haven't already. If the above doesn't work replace all the diodes on the switches in the affected row/column. If that don't work replace the switches. Its cheap. This is probably going to boil dow to being a really simple fix. Hopefully we find it soon.

Report back on what you've tried and what happened. Good luck.

Here's the topic I started on here in case you're interested in a good read.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bride-of-pinbot-bop-sw-67-location

#24 8 years ago

I am definitely going to try both of these trouble shooting methods you described. I was nervous about running a temporary test line from the board but the way you described it makes it sound like this may be the easier option. I still plan on mapping out the wiring I am having trouble with. The operations manual has become less intimidating since I have been working on this problem. It may take me a couple of days but I will let you know what I find. I am also anxious to check out your switch 67 forum because I am also having a problem with this. Since my current switch problem is affecting gameplay more, I had put 67 on the back burner. Much thanks.

#25 8 years ago

If you are having trouble with sw 67 then definitely head to the topic I started about it. Pretty much everything was tried there and is documented. Again, my issue ended up being that diode on the switch on the heartbeat ramp, not actually the ramp but eh switch that gets hit second if you go up that ramp, it is also the switch that gets triggered when the ball comes down the left side of the mini play paly field. The diode was touching the middle leg on that switch.

After you start using the manual looking at the matrix and schematics it starts to make sense. I doubt we will become masters without formal training or apprenticing but we can get the job done.

BTW, does the sw 67 share a row or column with the switches you are having trouble with? What issues are you having with the sw 67?

#26 8 years ago

Switch 67 is not in the chain I am having a problem with. On start up, I get an error for head switch 67. About 33% of the time, it will work properly starting with the mouth face. Even when the game starts on the optics face, the ramp shot will still register as voice activated and proceed through the proper bonuses. I can temporarily fix this by going through the test menus and orienting the head. I have read several topics concerning this issue and have seen problems ranging from switch position/adjustment to electrical components. I am going to tackle this as soon as I fix the switch circuit I am currently working on. It is very frustrating playing the game now because the Outhole switch is not functioning and you have to wait about 15 seconds for the solenoids to cycle and register the dead ball as exited the playfield. The game is still fun to play but waiting on the ball to clear is a pain. I agree that the manual is becoming more of a valuable tool the more I use it. The schematics are still a bit confusing but I am not overwhelmed now when I trace a circuit. I am glad there are helpful people sharing their knowledge and experiences to aid novice repair people like me. Thanks again.

#27 8 years ago
Quoted from bradleehall:

I can temporarily fix this by going through the test menus and orienting the head. I have read several topics concerning this issue and have seen problems ranging from switch position/adjustment to electrical components

Switch adjustment 100% if it is working. Rotating parts with switches are difficult to adjust. They have to be perfectly spaced. But once they're set up right, they usually stay that way.

#28 8 years ago

I've been at work this week and haven't had much time to mess with the game. I have been trying to map the switches I am having the problems with. Each one has a green wire or pair that corresponds to the switch matrix chart. The other side of the switches have 1 or 2 white wires with a black stripe connected to them. The operations manual doesn't have wiring diagrams for any of the switch circuits. They can be difficult to trace because of all the other wires. I will report back in a couple of days when I have time to spend on it.

#29 8 years ago

I found the problem for sure this time. After studying the operations manual, I found out the white-gray wire was common to all of these switches. I put the game in test mode and put a ball on the outhole switch number 38. I proceeded to jiggle the wiring to all of the problem switches and received a switch closed signal while moving stuff in the backbox. I finally pinpointed the bad spot at the connector and the CPU board at J209, which holds the white-gray wire. With a little pressure up or down on the connector, the switches would work properly. I stuck a very thin piece of cardboard at the top of the connector and the receptacle. The game plays great. I need to replace the connector and should be done with this issue. I have a couple other problems that I will be trying to fix soon. I may start another topic on this forum if I don't have any luck with them. Like I said on my original post, I have learned a lot and have a lot to learn. Finally, thanks to everyone who responded and gave my valuable information.

#30 8 years ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

First, do you know the wires are well seated in the connector?

Nailed it!

#31 8 years ago

Correct. They appear to be seated well. There is a very small amount of green discoloring on the top exposed copper of this one terminal on the connector which is probably a byproduct of the acid damage I had from the batteries. This is also the white-gray wire I was having trouble with. It must be worse inside the female portion of the plug. I have read several threads about connectors causing problems. I spent a lot of time tracking it down and learned a lot. Keep spreading the knowledge.

#32 8 years ago

Good to know you found it. Keep in mind it may not be the connector. It could be a cold solder joint on the connector at the board. Reflow those pins on the board. If it still loses connection then it is definitely in the connector.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 1.00
Lighting - Led
Mitchell Lighting
Led
$ 69.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Pimp
Decorations
$ 44.99
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Pinball Shark
Shooter rods
£ 58.00
Lighting - Led
PinballToys
Led
$ 250.00
Lighting - Interactive
Professor Pinball
Interactive
From: $ 27.00
Boards
KAHR.US Circuits
Boards
$ 109.95
Electronics
PinSound
Electronics
$ 299.95
Lighting - Led
Pin Stadium Pinball Mods
Led
From: $ 12.00
Flipper Parts
Precision Pinball prod.
Flipper parts
$ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
Eproms
$ 29.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
PinBoss Mods
Toys/Add-ons
$ 200.00
Lighting - Interactive
Professor Pinball
Interactive
From: $ 30.00
Cabinet - Toppers
+CY Universal
Toppers
$ 285.99
Cabinet - Other
PinSound
Other
$ 9.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
Eproms
£ 69.00
Playfield - Other
PinballToys
Other
$ 150.00
Displays
Digipinball Shop
Displays
4,000
Machine - For Sale
Appleton, WI
$ 199.95
Electronics
PinSound
Electronics
$ 399.95
Lighting - Led
Pin Stadium Pinball Mods
Led
$ 54.99
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Lighted Pinball Mods
Shooter rods
From: $ 1.25
Playfield - Other
Rocket City Pinball
Other
$ 1.25
Lighting - Led
Mitchell Lighting
Led
$ 39.00
Cabinet - Other
Arcade Upkeep
Other
From: $ 1.25
Playfield - Other
Rocket City Pinball
Other
From: $ 17.99
From: $ 35.00
Cabinet - Other
Rocket City Pinball
Other
$ 649.95
Lighting - Led
Pin Stadium Pinball Mods
Led
$ 44.99
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Pinball Shark
Shooter rods
$ 95.00
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
Pinball Mod Co.
Sound/Speakers

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bride-of-pinbot-novice-repair-help and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.