(Topic ID: 293166)

Brand new MPU89 board in production has DC/DC converter

By Ilikewires

5 months ago


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  • 30 posts
  • 12 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 months ago by Pin_Guy
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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    Topic poll

    “How do you feel about this new MPU89 board?”

    • I love it, I plan to get one 2 votes
      15%
    • Looks fine, I would consider it if I need one 8 votes
      62%
    • Yikes, not another MPU board 3 votes
      23%

    (13 votes)

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    IMG_1594 (resized).JPG

    #1 5 months ago

    Ready for the best MPU board for your WPC 89 game with no compromises?
    Remember 5V power reset issues? This board has a 12V to 5V DC/DC converter built in. It does not even use the 5V from the connector.
    It also has the FRAM memory built in.. so no batteries are required.
    And the ribbon connectors are boxed, so that you can easily get the cables plugged in in a dark backbox.
    The board comes with FRAM and the CPU installed.
    You will need to move your EPROM and ASIC from your existing board, or buy them separately.
    Best of all, you get a 90 day warranty.
    Please see the PinSide store, PinballReplacementParts.
    We have 20 in stock now and volume on the way from the manufacturer.

    IMG_1594 (resized).JPG
    #2 5 months ago

    Wouldn't like to change U20 on that bad boy. People will shy away for that reason alone
    The Boxed Connectors are good. Power supply idea is good?
    That Driver Board 12 volt reg doesn't have much of a heat sink on it.
    How much draw is taken from the 12 VDC line on the Driver Board?

    #3 5 months ago

    Not much market for CPU boards anymore. Sound Boards are a different story.
    Any plans for Sound Boards?

    #4 5 months ago

    Man - way to shit on the guy's thread.

    I think the board looks nice. Good upgrades.

    #5 5 months ago
    Quoted from WH20_Buzz:

    Wouldn't like to change U20 on that bad boy. People will shy away for that reason alone

    Yeah, it probably would have been a better idea for the bottom section of the board to be through-hole components for reparability. Or, at least provide the through holes so a new chip could be installed--like on barakandl's classic bally/stern driver board.

    Quoted from Ilikewires:

    Remember 5V power reset issues? This board has a 12V to 5V DC/DC converter built in. It does not even use the 5V from the connector.

    Sounds like a good idea. I don't think anyone else has done that yet on an aftermarket WPC MPU.

    #6 5 months ago

    Huh, never realized how simple the schematic really was on the WPC-89 boards. Once you empty the real estate by moving to SMT, it starts to look downright elegant in comparison to the originals. Nice clean layout, well done! Does it still include a real-time-clock? Not sure what WPC-89 games had clock based features.

    To answer the other questions that came up.....

    As a hobby, we have to get used to surface mount components, thru-hole stuff is being discontinued left and right by every major supplier. We're hitting the point that duplicating old designs with thru-hole parts is simply not viable any longer. As a hobby we must adapt as there's no other option. I can't remember the last time at work that we brought in a new design for a customer that had a thru-hole IC other than opto isolators. NOBODY is designing new thru-hole product in any quantity. Too big, cost too much, costlier to manufacture, and harder to design boards with thru-hole IC's. Once you get used to it, even repair work is often easier and quicker with SMT parts than thru-hole. Just takes some practice.

    Seriously, the semiconductor market right now is absolutely bonkers. We're getting notifications on a daily basis of huge lead times, parts being discontinued, last time buy notices, you name it. Atmega processors are a two year lead time right now and still extending. PIC's aren't far behind. Hell, I just got a 4 month lead time for molex crimps.

    The power supply idea is well proven via existing daughter-board kits. This design integrates it into the CPU board as opposed to having it as a separate module. There's no concern at all. Good solution to drastically reducing reset issues.

    Sound boards for many designs are impossible to make exact duplicates to the originals. The original DAC chips are long obsolete and not available in any reliable quantity, and audio amp chips are also disappearing in rapid succession. One customer at work is on their third major redesign because of audio amps being discontinued.

    #7 5 months ago

    The boxed in ribbon cable is a great idea. I can't count the times I have seen ribbon cables put on wrong.

    #8 5 months ago

    Thanks for the positive comments..
    The boxed connectors were nice for prototype testing alone, so I am sure folks will like that.
    The DC/DC converter is designed for 2A, and the board draws much less than that. I would estimate about 10W or so, so it is a light draw on the 12V.
    You are right about U20, but there were limited options there. But I do give you a 90 day warranty, so if you have bad switch wiring and pop the board, at least it is my issue to replace it.
    My biggest fear is the customer struggling to remove and replug their ASIC chip from old to new board.
    Do you all think that it is worth getting a license to provide the EPROM with the board?
    Right you are on the parts availability.. it is mayhem out there. I shifted an automotive design for a client to a different part, and a week later we could not get that part either. They found 30 pieces at a broker, and when they arrived, they put them in the safe with the gold that they use in their manufacturing.
    The rest of the first 100 production run of the MPU89 will ship to me at the end of this week.
    Sound boards.. sigh. I do have some early designs on some nice sound board stuff.. but if there is anything that I have learned on Pinside, if you hint at a project, folks want a price and delivery. But yes, there is some early work on some sound board work.

    #9 5 months ago
    Quoted from Ilikewires:

    but if there is anything that I have learned on Pinside, if you hint at a project, folks want a price and delivery.

    Or worse, they take your design and run with it.

    #10 5 months ago
    Quoted from Ilikewires:

    Thanks for the positive comments..
    The boxed connectors were nice for prototype testing alone, so I am sure folks will like that.
    The DC/DC converter is designed for 2A, and the board draws much less than that. I would estimate about 10W or so, so it is a light draw on the 12V.
    You are right about U20, but there were limited options there. But I do give you a 90 day warranty, so if you have bad switch wiring and pop the board, at least it is my issue to replace it.
    My biggest fear is the customer struggling to remove and replug their ASIC chip from old to new board.
    Do you all think that it is worth getting a license to provide the EPROM with the board?
    Right you are on the parts availability.. it is mayhem out there. I shifted an automotive design for a client to a different part, and a week later we could not get that part either. They found 30 pieces at a broker, and when they arrived, they put them in the safe with the gold that they use in their manufacturing.
    The rest of the first 100 production run of the MPU89 will ship to me at the end of this week.
    Sound boards.. sigh. I do have some early designs on some nice sound board stuff.. but if there is anything that I have learned on Pinside, if you hint at a project, folks want a price and delivery. But yes, there is some early work on some sound board work.

    I think this is a step in the right direction. SMD components are a challenge to repair, but when older part styles become obsolete, we have to adapt. You have implemented a good solution with the DC/DC converter. I did not like working on SMD boards at first, still don't but just have to. My 2 cents is all I am saying.

    Ken

    #11 5 months ago

    I know that I am launching a fight, but it appears that the trend is going away from folks who will do board level troubleshooting and replacing parts, and going towards plug and play.. as long as there is another board to order and plug in, many folks are happy. It is not worth adding a pile of cost and scouring for NOS parts when most of the market is happy when it just works.

    #12 5 months ago
    Quoted from Ilikewires:

    It also has the FRAM memory built in.. so no batteries are required.

    Mybe I'm missing the battery header, but how do you connect a battery to your CPU board for the ASICs real time clock (RTC) functionality in games with a Midnight Madness feature or a game like Twilight Zone that has a functioning Analog clock on the playfield?

    Quoted from Ilikewires:

    It is not worth adding a pile of cost and scouring for NOS parts

    I'm confused by why anyone would have to scour for "NOS parts" nearly every component in the original board is still available new for purchase.
    No one needs to spend any time looking for any of them as they are all listed at the link below, this is a publicly shared document I created several years ago:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1C4znEqZd4K4eywhi__qDwI-3AsX6Y5qdw9Pzb0p178A/edit#gid=1430569459

    #14 5 months ago

    There is no accommodation for a battery, and the RTC does not keep time.
    Any time you work with NOS parts, there is a risk that they were pulled from equipment operated for 25 years and either do not work or will not last.
    Thanks!

    #15 5 months ago
    Quoted from Ilikewires:

    There is no accommodation for a battery, and the RTC does not keep time.

    I would definitely emphasize that in whatever advertising you end up doing - since your stated market is people that don't do board level work, they are probably also the same type of customer that would be upset not knowing this and wondering why their Twilight Zone clock doesn't work..... does the lack of the RTC working though cause the credit dot at startup for date/time not set? Could you easily add a header for batteries for this?

    The RTC doesn't even keep good time anyway in the ASIC unless the game is on, even with good batteries. All my games are way off.

    #16 5 months ago
    Quoted from Ilikewires:

    Any time you work with NOS parts, there is a risk that they were pulled from equipment operated for 25 years and either do not work or will not last.

    NOS parts (New Old Stock) means they are actually new parts made back in the day and are no longer available; but even this aside, you are actually misleading folks into thinking the original parts used in the manufacture of this board are no longer being produced and this is simply untrue.

    #17 5 months ago

    Pin-Guy -- interesting list in that link.

    As to definition of NOS. New Old Stock (to me) means new (unused) old stock but this has been debated many times. To me - parts that are pulled from equipment are not "NOS" but actually "USED". My favorite vendor description is "Refurbished" where all some of them do to refurbish them is pull them from the old board.

    Parts that I consider obsolete and hard to find for that board (e.g. 'scour for NOS parts'):
    Williams ASIC -- Might be still available from the last build that the guy in OZ made... I'm not sure.
    EPROM -- Those are obsolete. Can replace with an OTP-PROM (which is still made, footprint compatible and cheaper anyways).
    CPU -- That one truly is no longer made with no replacement, can become a bugger as they get scarcer.

    To the OP - I think the choice to use a 'point of use' regulator on that board is an excellent idea. Computers have been using that method for decades.
    But I think the use of SMT for the parts that often get cooked (e.g. comparators and transistor array) is not such a good idea. If you really want to use SMT parts there, I suggest you put land patterns on the board so that when (not if) they do get cooked then they can easily be replaced with thru-hole parts that are still commonly made.

    And - color code the LEDs! Human Engineering specs say 'Green good, yellow warning, red bad'. No biggie - just a pet peeve of mine.

    #18 5 months ago

    Well, that devolved quickly. So go ahead and call Motorola and buy a new 6809. Or a ceramic packaged EPROM (not on the board by default). And I assure you that DIP packages are starting to wane.
    But the biggest challenge is that when you buy those parts from a broker, or China, you do not know if they are NOS or pulls.. the only way to know that they did not come out of Aunt Berthas' Apple II is if you buy everything from a qualified distributor. Prove me wrong.
    So.. do you think that you can buy everything necessary to build an original board from say Digikey?
    Also keep in mind that it takes a TON of time to design and perfect a new design.. all of the stuff on my web site earns enough money to only make the next design.
    Remember that RD had created a long work week of stuffing parts until his eyes bled.. he hated it. And if you are looking for someone to put 200 hours into something to just give it to you for 0 profit, or at a loss, keep looking.. I work too much to devote that kind of time to your pleasure.
    The biggest reason for the SMT is cost of manufacturing.. I will not sit here and solder in parts for the boards. It must be SMT to make the cost reasonable.
    I think that I have a formula that can keep most of the market happy and give them value. If you require the parts to be all through hole, go buy the one from Pin Basement.. that is exactly what he did. But hurry up.. when he gets tired of stuffing parts for no return, he will quit.
    I figure 10% of the folks on Pinside are not just offering constructive criticism, but are just dicks. It is the key reason that I do not do much here. At this point, I do not care if the 10% are happy, or even if they start scorching the earth in front of me. I do not care.
    Don't want my stuff because the clock does not work? OK.. don't buy it.
    GPE.. (theres a fellow that puts mountains of time in for free) there are 4 LEDs.. they are red, red, green and green. What colors would you like to see?

    #19 5 months ago
    Quoted from Ilikewires:

    Don't want my stuff because the clock does not work? OK.. don't buy it.

    Sheesh, you certainly didn't take my constructive criticism well at all..... newbie buyer replaces board, no clock, you get support emails. Could have nipped it in the bud by pointing it out beforehand.

    #20 5 months ago
    Quoted from Ilikewires:

    Well, that devolved quickly.

    Nobody here is bashing your work. Rather, simply offering suggestions on making improvements for a better product.

    #21 5 months ago

    OK, I accept that. Apologies. The biggest issue is the crowd that wants it all soldered through hole, so I will restrict my comments to that.
    I must be patient with folks that do not understand that times have changed and through hole is getting hard to do.
    Thanks..

    #22 5 months ago
    Quoted from Ilikewires:

    Well, that devolved quickly.

    Unfortunate, but when you use terms like this:

    Quoted from Ilikewires:

    Ready for the best MPU board for your WPC 89 game with no compromises?

    Then you have no option to make the RTC work, you kind of set yourself up for this.

    Quoted from Ilikewires:

    Prove me wrong.

    So.. do you think that you can buy everything necessary to build an original board from say Digikey?

    Yes, I provided an entire thru-hole parts list with quick links for every part on the original WPC89 board from one of the largest electronic parts distributors in the country.

    Granted the CPU, ASIC, and Game ROM were not included in this list, since your board uses chip sockets in this location I didnt feel they were worth mentioning since they are all low failure items and are far away from the corrosion areas.

    Quoted from Ilikewires:

    Or a ceramic packaged EPROM (not on the board by default)

    I agree, original ceramic UV erasable EPROMS are hard to find, but folks that actually burn and erase EPROMS are equally as hard to find, most people are just going to but the final version of whatever EPROM they need and not worry about it being plastic or ceramic.

    Like G-P-E mentioned, these parts are no where near as expensive as they once were are there are tons of new One Time Programmable "EPROMS" available that will work just fine for folks that would rather burn their own.(Yes I do know the "E" in EPROM stands for erasable)

    https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Microchip-Technology-Atmel/AT27C040-70PU?qs=lURXKZrvvXdfU1rfB2oRWw%3D%3D
    https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/268/doc0189-1368911.pdf

    Quoted from G-P-E:

    Pin-Guy -- interesting list in that link.

    I already had the list as this was the parts list from the first 3 MPUs I built from bare boards; I just transferred the information to a spreadsheet and made it available to everyone. This is also why I can confirm I had a 0.00% parts failure rate, there is the one Capacitor on that list that became obsoleted and while I still many of them I never tested the substitute part on the full parts list.
    G-P-E If you want to copy that sheet and put your own part number and links in it and publish it, please feel free to do so.

    #23 5 months ago
    Quoted from G-P-E:

    As to definition of NOS. New Old Stock (to me) means new (unused) old stock but this has been debated many times.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_old_stock

    It can be debated, but the one constant is that the part was never used.

    #24 5 months ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    Nobody here is bashing your work. Rather, simply offering suggestions on making improvements for a better product.

    This is very well said. I believe if you used a socketed U20 and added a coin cell battery or a battery header for the RTC; I think most people would be very happy with that.

    #25 5 months ago

    I did not realize that the clock was that important, I will add that to the design.. and socket U20.
    But meanwhile I already have the first run of boards in hand.
    I would like to offer the 6 people who had the most comments about the design a free MPU89 board.
    No ASIC or EPROM as it were.
    If you PM me your address, I will ship one out to each of you.
    Pin-guy
    GPE
    slochar (if you are within USPS priority mail range)
    eyeamred2u
    hhaase
    forceflow (if you are within USPS priority mail range)
    Call it a peace offering.
    I will be traveling all of next week, so if I do not get them out by this weekend, there will be a week delay.

    #26 5 months ago

    Not needed by me, I have every confidence that it will work fine.

    #27 5 months ago

    I don't need one either but thanks for the offer.

    #28 5 months ago

    I would gladly take one of the first run boards if you are offering to others... I have a T2 which doesn't have any useful RTC clock features so no issues for my usage.

    #29 5 months ago

    If you want some test data in a 24/7 commercial route setting in exchange for a discount I can provide that. We have an Addams Family that gets a lot of play.

    #30 5 months ago

    Thanks for your generous offer its much appreciated but I am solid on spare boards and parts. I'm certain you will be able to sell them as new working beta boards; I see folks on here all the time that need replacements because of acid damage or botched repairs.

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