great thread topic. the simple fact is some bad apples here are rotting the whole tree. Those apples need to be removed.

So now were on to suggesting social stratification? It's not broken, dude. Traffic keeps Robin employed. If you shut out the new guys and their requests for help, etc. go unheard because of a filter, you kill growth and then people migrate to a new forum where their voice is heard.

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them a "bad apple" in some jungle tree, Just means they may have an opinion that a narcissist may find offensive....Live and let live friend.

I think an option where if you start a new thread, those who are on your "ignore" list are not allowed to post on your thread. This would be an option for the op of every thread before it posted to be viewed. It would save the moderators a lot of time and effort. Plus keep some of the more frequent trolls from derailing threads with their own agenda.

I've only been here for about a year and a half. Not sure if things have gotten worse or I just notice it more now that my Pinside honeymoon is over.

Seems to me that most of the trolling comes from about a dozen people, some of whom I have on ignore.

The best way to reduce this behavior is to Not Feed the Trolls.

If someone says something stupid, down vote it and move on. Don't respond and help to devolve the thread into the normal troll cycle. There is a lot of good information here, but I miss much of it because threads fill up with this BS. Nothing you say to some one will ever reduce trollish behavior and usually creates more.

Although most of this is aimed at a manufacturer, there is a more generic need here.

Up votes and down votes may not be as useful, as many use it to record their disagreement with the post, which is perfectly acceptable.

A simple way to achieve what you are asking for would be a Troll Meter and filter feature. Allow people to mark posts as troll bait and create an ignore function based on your openness to trolling, like top 1% or 5% of Troll 'offenders'. In addition you could automatically ignore individual posts that reach a particular troll rating.

It might be good to publish a Troll scoreboard, so trolls and members can see their relative reputation.

Remember: The best way to reduce this behavior is to Not Feed the Trolls.

Thanks for the suggestion, I really like the metaphor you are using. However, I'm not sure if a class system wouldn't be counter to what Pinside is trying to accomplish. If someone (a new member, for example) cannot post in a topic because he's too new, too low a class? The whole idea of Pinside is to promote the silver ball game through discussion between pinheads from all over the world. Disallowing people from posting in threads does not really fit that mission. Filtering out lower class posts also seems like a bit of a crude mechanism for the issue we're trying to solve, it's throwing out the baby wth the bathwater.

We tried, but our implementation of voting on post quality was too complex and bloated and it failed miserably. It was abandoned after 2 weeks.

Interesting. Although I wonder if this wouldn't be giving individual posters too much power. I think we have to be careful about that.

That is the intelligent way to approach it. But unfortunately it's also really hard for most people.

Agreed. And as such up- and downvotes on their own can not be used to measure trolling.

My brother came up with the exact same solution this morning A simple button, with a troll icon, on each post to allow all of Pinside to help identify troll bait posts. Like one-click abuse report filing. But will it work? Won't people simply go and over-use it on every post? It would need some kind of limit.

Another idea that we've had for a while is sub-forum ejects. the same as a thread eject, but now you can't post to any topic in a sub-forum for x days (or even permanent). This would only be for the real persistent trolls, who can't help themselves but keep posting their same opinion in each and every topic on a subject.

All in all, I'm pretty sure some technical solutions could be cooked up, but the trick is to make it insusceptible to fraud or abuse itself. Oh and keep them super simple, like the ignore feature.

The troll button is a good idea. I've only ignored a single user on Pinside, and every time I see reactions to "ignore user comment" posts it reinforces my decision. Having that type of tag available to everyone else to use would be useful.

It's also important to take into consideration temporary situations, like a single heated argument could wind up with a user getting several troll votes when the reality is they are otherwise a positive contributor, so there needs to be a mechanism for someone to climb out of the "troll hole." For example if 5 users mark them as a troll yet they generally receive more up-votes than down votes, the user obviously has positive value on Pinside. However if they have 10 lifetime posts and 5 marked as troll bait, it's a red flag that someone created the account for the sole purpose of trolling.

You boys do realize you sound ridicules don't you? Trolls are a fact of life.

Along with a troll button, you could make the individual posts more transparent with each troll strike against it. The post would simply fade away and someone would need to click on the post to read it if they wanted.

Just adding 2 cents to the brainstorming.

I think combining these two features might work as it's the real persistent trolls that cause the most damage to threads.

Add a troll button so the community can help alert the moderators to possible trollish behavior.

The moderators can then look at the potential trolls posting history and determine the proper response. I definitely think a subforum ban (both temporary and permanent) should be added as options for the moderators.

I think it's better if the moderators remain in control to prevent abuse by us. I don't care for automatic filtering from the reader's end based on some "troll score" because it doesn't stop a troll from posting in the first place.

I don't have anyone on ignore. I normally don't respond to people I think are trolls, but I like to reserve the right to correct the misinformation they often spread as there may be newer readers who don't realize the misinformation is coming from someone with an axe to grind.

Though it might take a while to clear some of the noise from Pinside if this were implemented, I think it could work.

How about a user-configurable auto-ignore, where one can set a threshold based on minimum % thumbs up?

So a 0 would give all posts, a 50 would be at least half ups, etc.

Not that my score is that great, just over 80%; I said some things in those old WOZ threads.

I'd set it to 75, at least 3 ups for every down.

Of course, there is still the problem of trolls being quoted...

Might be interesting to try it, though. Anyone who didn't want to use it could just leave it at zero.

I think Pinside should keep track of the most ignored users and if they cross a threshold, ban them. Sorry to be so corse on this, but there are some trolls here who are ignored often...

My thought is it would be nice if there were "official" threads, started by the manufacturers, where they had more control over the thread. Kicking people out maybe even. It's really nice to have on-topic threads where you can get official answers and updates, and people can ask questions and share opinions where they can get feedback directly from the team. And when that gets swamped with noise no one really wins.

I know Pinside isn't an advertising/social media platform for businesses, but we all would benefit from such a thing I think. And if a company abuses it they'll get pushback.

And if people want to start "unofficial" threads to speculate on Alien, or Hobbit, or whatever else they're free to do so, with no restrictions. So no one is being silenced, they just can't derail a thread that's officially dedicated to a topic.

I know some troll account tried to suck me into an off topic Alien thread that was obviously set up to trap me. I just drained it. No clue if it's still going, don't care. But I can't do that with the official Alien thread, because there are updates I want to be able to put in there for people, and I suspect no one would hope that I would not post them.

I can't see how Pinside is a better place without Keith posting. I have thick skin and I'm patient, but honestly there are times when I feel like bailing too. It all just gets so personal, it's hard to suck down that negativity constantly without it affecting you. (I have no problem with criticism of games, art, etc, it's when it turns into personal insults and trying to make people feel like shit that I lose my tolerance.)

I was sort of mulling over the same idea, but it looks like you beat me to it.

Since pin biz listings are now hooked into profiles, it might not be too far of a leap to give a business owner the ability to post "official" threads in certain sub-forums.

On the flip side of things, if someone posts a legitimate question/comment, what would prevent the OP of the "official" thread from squashing that post if they don't like it for some reason? Would it be a good idea for the mods have the opportunity to review each post that the OP squashes, and reinstate a post if they think it's actually legitimate and not a trollish comment?

Personally I find that people are already way too concerned about up and down voting, the internet should be a place that you speak your mind. Anything trying to restrict peoples ability to express their opinion is negative in nature. Sure idiots will stay stupid shit but the internet should still be a place you can freely voice your opinion. A mod can step in if people get really hateful, threatening or dangerous. People are way to concerned about causing offense, reading something online you don't agree with or like is a no harm no foul situation in my mind. People should not be shunned or silenced because someone may not like what they say.

Words hurt ;(

Not sure if serious?

Ignoring someone should not effect what they are able to do on the site. It should merely prevent the ignorer from seeing them.

Is this not a Troll thread?

I think the definition of "trolling" is too broad and I'll-defined to allow users that kind of power. It would get pretty much the same clicks as the thumbs down button does now.

Official locked threads already exist! May be they should be used more often? Give frequent updates, link to relevant posts in other threads, external material...

Aurich's idea for allowing true "official" threads for given products or companies, moderated by a poster that represents that company, is brilliant. I think it could reduce confusion over the nature of threads, and allow the best pinball resource / communication tool on the Internet (Pinside) to work as a usable tool for pinball companies.

I think the idea is for them to be open to general public posting, but the OP (a confirmed representative of the company) has moderation privileges within that thread.

It's worth discussing. But now imagine the Zidware or Predator "official" thread, moderated by Kevin or JPop...

I don't know. It sounds good in theory, but I fear it would just become like every other thread where the OG posts something, and then you get 1000 posts after asking for more info, the OG doesn't have anything to post, people get pissy, THEN they get kicked out? The tears would be flowing around here like a waterfall.

Doesn't Stern already have a facebook page so they can say what they want and then kick people off it? How's the popularity of that?

I don't think that's what's going on here.

Let's say someone is disgruntled with something JJP did. So, they go into all the JJP threads to put down the games, spread or start misinformation, inflame or start negative speculation, etc...

In my opinion, they are just causing trouble and are not adding any value to the thread.

I wouldn't have a problem if they went into every JJP thread and said, "I'm upset that JJP did this, so I'm not going to support them." At least it would be honest and their actual problem could be discussed instead of this passive aggressive way to get back at the company.

It's not just with JJP, though they seem to have more grudge bearing people than the other companies. It's amazing how much trouble even one dedicated person can cause.

Agreed wholeheartedly. There are a very large percentage of folks that tend to define anyone that doesn't agree with their opinion as a troll. If you want to read about a manufacturer in an environment where they are free to promote their wares without criticism it's called going to their web site. Or to a lesser extent their FB page as most larger companies are actively policing that. Pinside's product is pinball speech, for the folks that can't handle the freedoms that entails they are already able to wrap themselves up in a cocoon of thread and user ignore lists...

The thing is an official thread in no way precludes unofficial threads, or other threads about specific things regarding that company. The problem being addressed is that people who want to have discussions about or with pinball manufacturers here are inevitably prevented by repeat-offenders who constantly derail and distract from threads, and often drive away any posters who work for pinball companies, due to having all their time taken up by malcontents who take swipe after swipe. It's draining and unproductive from their perspective.

I like the idea of "official" threads that can be moderated by company staff. However, it seems to me that as these threads become marketing tools, and as they're pruned to cast off negativity as will happen, the company should have to pay for the convenience and ability of having such a tool at their disposal.

It's not only that - it should then be officially labelled as "advertisement" with a disclaimer from Pinside staff? Otherwise one may argue Pinside helped a scam if the company goes belly up and does not refund its customers (Hello Kevin, you here?).

And from the other end, it's a forum, and it's tough to police such a thing. Every....single...thread on pinside it constantly being derailed and distracted from it's given "point" by people being people and just typing their thoughts.

If you allow manufacturers to moderate their own threads then you are just playing into their hands. People speak up when they see a problem, and there are plenty of those. They aren't always trolls but some like to see people get what they paid for.

I disagree. I think the majority of pinsiders are honest people who treat the site with respect. Sure there will be some who would treat a troll button like a thumbs down button, but we as a community know who the real trolls are in any given subforum and I think there will be enough of a difference to at least alert the moderators.

On further consideration, a troll button is probably not necessary as I think the moderators already know who the troublemakers are based on complaints sent directly to them.

At that point it's easy for them to look up someone's posting history and make a determination. I think they just need to be given the option to give temporary and permanent subforum bans and then communicate to us when they will be used (how many warnings, etc..).

I would much rather see the individuals who are causing the problems be addressed than some convoluted solution that affects everyone to avoid singling anyone out.

Of course it should be labeled. Not an "advertisement" per se, but yes it would be clear that the conversation is not an inherently neutral one within that particular thread. It would be for communication with and conversation about a company or product. Not a constant referendum, like threads so often devolve into. There is plenty of room on pinside for the other kind of thread too, I don't think there is any stopping people from being people.

And nothing would stop you from creating a thread about that. It'd merely stop repeated / constant derails of the official one.

Pinside needs separate forums for manufacturer/mod/part sellers. They should follow the rules set by Robin but be moderated by the owner of the business. This could be used for posting updates, mods for sale, answering questions, etc. When people act like jackasses the owner can delete the post and lock them out from posting in that forum.

As it is now every vendor/pinball maker gets literally assaulted about everything on this forum. I see why pretty much none of them use it. As a company grows past a start up it is not worth all of the headaches and people being ridiculous to come on and post currently.

This is the way Facebook works... the alternative is no participation from manufacturers on Pinside at all, so pick your poison.

Users will still be free to open threads in other areas to bitch and troll all they want.

Some manufacturers only show up here when they have something to sell or somebody else to blame for a problem. But when a real problem with their product arises, they tend to go hide their head in the sand.

Both you and the person you disagree with have the same right to voice their opinion. There is no rule that you must add value. Words on the internet are not starting trouble its expressing an individuals freedom of speech in a safe and secure manner.

I disagree. Having the option to block certain people from posting on your own thread would be very beneficial. There are certain people who go at it with one another just because of personal reasons which have nothing to do with the post. There are also certain people who have hatred toward certain companies and bash everything said positively about them. For instance, never mind, I'm not going to drag any specific names into this discussion. If I were to post a for sale thread there are a handful of people whom I would not want to comment on my thread and by simply not allowing them to derail your thread would eliminate a LOT of back and forth banter.

Except, this is not just the "internet". Belonging to and posting on Pinside is a privilege not a right. I think the issues I stated above go against the rules below.

Directly from the Pinside rules.

"It's good to remember that you're a guest on the Pinside and there are certain rules that you need to stick to, a bit like house rules. The most important rule is to be nice: we expect everyone to behave in a respectful manner.

Flaming, baiting, trolling or otherwise inflammatory comments: These are all slightly different actions that share one thing in common, they stir-up trouble. So please don’t post things that are angry or mean-spirited (flaming), challenge others into heated arguments (baiting/inflammatory comments), or hop from thread to thread typing provocative things (trolling). It’s a waste of your time, our time, and ultimately damages our community."

That sounds like way to much power, you can just rip people of then block them from ever posting in your thread again. This just seems like a way for people to be dicks then hide.

Don't feed the trolls,
And,
Get a thicker skin

Yes, there are trolls. It is the internet, ignore them

People are going to disagree with you. You are not right 100% of the time. There is more than one way to skin a cat
If every one thought the same way, life would be boring

How do you interpret this as way too much power? Seriously, I'm not saying to be able to pick and choose who posts on YOUR thread, just to have the option of eliminating a limited number of people who are constantly going after each other. It would be an option
for the "op" of a thread. You should have the right to choose whether or not you want to block someone from your ignore list from crapping all over your thread. This would also help the moderators and you and I as a reader

It's simple I do not believe any person should be able to block or control what some else posts. I'm fine with anyone being able to block and filter what ever they see, but I do not want anyone else being able to censor what I see. To me that is fundamentally wrong and a very slippery slope.

Yeah, it would be great if everyone in the world had a thicker skin. I may choose not to engage the trolls, but just like the trolls can't help themselves, I think the people who feed them can't let the stuff they say slide. As a result, the rest of the people in the thread suffer.

Since this is a moderated forum at least one half of the equation (the person breaking the Pinside rules) can be removed.