(Topic ID: 245388)

Bowling Queen puzzle


By currieddog

33 days ago



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  • 39 posts
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0Bowling-Queen-Work-03 (resized).jpg
Bowling Queen 1 10 point relays (resized).jpg
Bowling Queen P relay switches (resized).jpg
0Bowling-Queen-Work-02 (resized).jpg
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0Bowling-Queen-Work-01 (resized).jpg
Capture2 (resized).png
Bowling Queen Targets (resized).jpg
Bowling Queen 50pt relay (resized).jpg
Capture3 (resized).PNG
Capture2 (resized).PNG

#1 33 days ago

OK, just can't track this down. Each rollover, first time thru, is supposed to award 50 pts. and a ball in the backglass, and anytime after, 5 pts. Mine is 5 or 50 first time, with no pattern as to which RO. It always gives the ball, light goes off, and rings the bell, so things seem to be going thru P correctly. The three targets always award 50 pts. each time. I have been thru the score motor, the 13 pos. bank that does the ROs and reset, and everything else that could be involved and nothing has changed.

Capture2 (resized).PNGCapture3 (resized).PNG
#2 33 days ago

This circuit seems pretty timing sensitive - there's kind of a race condition in it.
Bowling Queen 50pt relay (resized).jpg
When a rollover switch closes for the first time (use the Top Left RO in this example), a pulse goes through the make/break switch on the #1 trip relay then through the #1 trip relay coil and the series P relay coil. What should happen is that the P relay should fire and close the P relay switch in the red box to fire the K/50 point relay.

What happens at essentially the same time though is that the #1 trip relay fires, which throws the make/break switch to the other side and connects the rollover switch to the J/5 point relay. When that make/break switch flips power to the P relay is cut because the P relay doesn't have a lock in circuit to hold it.

What should happen is that the P relay switch in the red box should fire the K/50 point relay which should open the normally closed K/50 point relay switch and prevent the J/5 point relay from firing (or disconnect it if it has fired).

What may be happening is that the P relay switch in the red box is gapped wide enough that the #1 make/break switch cuts power to the P relay before the switch in the red box can reliably fire the K/50 point relay. So the J/5 point relay fires instead because that normally closed K/5 point relay switch never opens. Or that P relay switch might just be dirty.

/Mark

#3 33 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

P relay switch in the red box is gapped wide enough that the #1 make/break switch cuts power to the P relay before the switch in the red box can reliably fire the K/50 point relay. So the J/5 point relay fires instead because that normally closed K/5 point relay switch never opens. Or that P relay switch might just be dirty.

That sw. on P was pretty tight, but I closed it more. No change. Now, I don't think I added enough detail above, but scoring could go (on lit ROs) 5-50-5-5-50 ... or 50-50-5-50-5 ... and so on. No pattern whatsoever. Also should have noted that coils on P and U were replaced as I thought back to the randomness problem on my Aquarius top kickout holes that was solved by replacing a seemingly good coil. Also, in looking at the top of that snippet, I'm not sure if the targets themselves should always score 50. I did go thru the 8 pos. bank that they're in.

#4 33 days ago

Yeah, the variability on 50 or 5 points tells me that the K relay isn't firing reliably when you close a lit rollover. Does it fire, or try to fire when you only get 5 points on a lit rollover?

Something else you could try is to block he normally closed switch on the K relay so the J relay can't fire. Then experiment with the rollovers to see if you can figure out when the K relay does and doesn't fire. Maybe hold down the rollover and jiggle things to see what might make the K relay fire when it doesn't initially.

Quoted from currieddog:

I'm not sure if the targets themselves should always score 50.

I think they should always score 50:
Bowling Queen Targets (resized).jpg
They can only fire the K/50 point relay. There's no way for them to fire the J/5 point relay.

#5 33 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Something else you could try is to block he normally closed switch on the K relay so the J relay can't fire.

I have done that and it does not fire. One odd thing is that when a RO is hit U always fires, and I don't see it going thru there anywhere on the schematic. Everything looks factory.

Quoted from MarkG:

They can only fire the K/50 point relay. There's no way for them to fire the J/5 point relay.

I thought so, but this part is a bit confusing and looked like there was a possible route to N.

Capture2 (resized).png
#6 33 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Something else you could try is to block he normally closed switch on the K relay so the J relay can't fire. Then experiment with the rollovers to see if you can figure out when the K relay does and doesn't fire. Maybe hold down the rollover and jiggle things to see what might make the K relay fire when it doesn't initially.

Quoted from currieddog:

I have done that and it does not fire.

When you block the normally closed K relay switch, do you always get 50 points on a lit rollover, or do you sometimes get nothing?

Quoted from currieddog:

I thought so, but this part is a bit confusing and looked like there was a possible route to N.

That part shows that the A/B/C White/Blue/Red Target relays change the values of other things like the pop bumpers, sling shots etc. from 1 point to 10 points.

#7 33 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

When you block the normally closed K relay switch, do you always get 50 points on a lit rollover, or do you sometimes get nothing

I get either 50 or nothing, but the bell always chimes and I always get a ball in the backglass.

#8 33 days ago

The bell and backglass animation means the P relay is firing as it should as you suggested earlier. I still think the problem is in the top line of the schematic in reply #2, probably in or around that P relay switch. Either it's not closing reliably, or there's a cold solder joint, or a dirty connection somewhere, etc. Or maybe the K relay is mechanically bound up somehow. If you manually close the P relay does the K relay fire reliably?

#9 33 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Either it's not closing reliably, or there's a cold solder joint, or a dirty connection somewhere, etc.

I had already resoldered the OR-BLK on P, thinking cold solder, but I'll go back and do them all. I've also checked for "floating contacts" all around and cleaned the living hell out of everything.

Quoted from MarkG:

If you manually close the P relay does the K relay fire reliably?

I'm thinking K is good because the targets always score 50, but maybe I'll resolder all around there as well. P has a funny set up with a jumper and some cross-connections, but I've confirmed that's all correct with another BQ owner.

#10 33 days ago

Yeah, the K relay is probably fine. But getting to it through that P switch is the problem. Maybe a loose contact in the switch blade?

You might to be able to measure the resistance with the power off between the orange-black wire and red-white wire around the P switch. Clip in your test leads and then manually close the P relay. Does the resistance ever fail to drop to an ohm or so?

#11 32 days ago

Hi currieddog , MarkG +
I guess we agree on Mark's post-2 - delicate stuff. Currieddog writes in post-3 "... can get maybe 5-50-5-5-50 or 50-50-5-50-5 ..." and in post-1 +/- "EACH Rollover behaves faulty". See my JPG - I added from the list of relays the switches to each relay - and have marked orange the simple "1B, 1C" type - to turn-off the light and to switch "from getting 50 points to getting 5 points". IF (if, if) the fault would only be on ONE relay I'd then say "the 'Make-and-Brake-Switch' on that relay is no good". A rather crazy theory: The Switch "S-Armature" is no good - during play now and then the switch let pass a bit of current - the Set-Up-Coil "13 Position Bank Setup" fires a bit - brings switches on the relays out of place a bit.

Currieddog - want to use an old, cheap, Edison-Type-bulb / Bedroom-Light as an Test-Light when You are playing - does the Test-Light now and then flicker ?
Do You get the faulty behaviour when You have lifted the playfield and manually trigger the Rollovers ? Want to concentrate on the two "Top left and right Rollovers" --- once You have got once the "50 points": You always get 5 points, never can get 50 points because the relay has plunged, has thrown the Make-and-Brake-Switch --- or the M&B-Switch is faulty. Greetings Rolf

0Bowling-Queen-Work-01 (resized).jpg
#12 32 days ago

OK, this is really weird: after a bitch of a time re-doing the solders and replacing the jumper on P, I tested and it was the same. But just now I blocked the R-GR sw., which is one of the jumpered ones, and it always scores 50 on lit ROs. And it does score 5 correctly after. So wondering if it is wired correctly?

I first blocked the OR-BLK and it always scored 5 on lit ROs.

#13 32 days ago

Haha, well there's always a downside: with that R-GR blocked it does not give the ball in the backglass or ring the bell. Blocking either of the other two doesn't make any difference.
Capture (resized).PNG

#14 32 days ago

Hi currieddog
to Your post-9 "funny set-up": I did search in the schematics the four Norrmally-Open-Switches on P-Relay - see the JPG --- one wire of color-Red+Wh comes to the switches - to one switch - short jumpers - maybe naked jumpers connect the four switches (one switchblade each switch). Greetings Rolf

0Bowling-Queen-Work-02 (resized).jpg
#15 32 days ago
Quoted from currieddog:

I first blocked the OR-BLK and it always scored 5 on lit ROs.

As it should.

Quoted from currieddog:

But just now I blocked the R-GR sw., which is one of the jumpered ones, and it always scores 50 on lit ROs. And it does score 5 correctly after. So wondering if it is wired correctly?

The switch with the red-green wire on the P relay fires the Ball Rack Advance unit in the backbox and shouldn't affect scoring. What seems more likely to me is that whatever you did to the switch with the red-green wire made the switch with the orange-black wire to the K relay close reliably.

#16 31 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

The switch with the red-green wire on the P relay fires the Ball Rack Advance unit in the backbox and shouldn't affect scoring. What seems more likely to me is that whatever you did to the switch with the red-green wire made the switch with the orange-black wire to the K relay close reliably.

What I'm wondering about is that the jumper essentially means that all four switches are connected when the relay is energized as it runs thru four blades. Also, if that R-GR sw. is not blocked it's back to random 5-50 scoring.

#17 31 days ago
Quoted from currieddog:

What I'm wondering about is that the jumper essentially means that all four switches are connected when the relay is energized as it runs thru four blades.

That's what Rolf's schematic in reply #14 shows. When the P relay fires, four different wires should get shorted to red+white. I'm not convinced that orange-black is.

That gives me another idea. What happens if you short two of those switches together with an alligator clip test lead like this?
Bowling Queen P relay switches (resized).jpg
The theory is that the orange-black switch on the P relay isn't closing reliably. If you short orange-black to slate-red on the P relay, that bypsses the suspected switch, and has the other switch drive both the Gong and the K relay. If the orange-black switch is the problem this should make the K relay fire and reliably give you 50 points for a lit rollover. Beware that your gong will fire longer though since it will now have to wait for the K relay to relax at the end of the Score Motor cycle (switch 2B).

#18 31 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

What happens if you short two of those switches together with an alligator clip test lead like this?

It didn't like that; everything kept running as it quick ran up to 500. If I have a lead on the OR-BLK and touch the R-WH it scores 50 each time. Kicking myself for not replacing that OR-BLK sw. when I had it all apart.

#19 30 days ago

OK, new sw. for the OR-BLK and no difference. Manually closing the relay always gives 50 and everything it should. Blocking the R-GR still always gives 50, with no balls in BG.

I've long suspected the 13 bank relay, which has all the RO sw. so it may be on to Rolf's earlier suggestion. There are a ton of wires in it, but I haven't found anything loose as of yet. I did clean the S armature earlier though.

#20 29 days ago

Blocking the first two switches on G, which also stops the balls in the BG, makes the ROs score 50 every time. What is the connection?

#21 29 days ago

Lots of observations here that don't make sense to me yet. Can we take a step back? Things I'd like to understand include:

- Lit rollovers always kick out a ball and fire the gong, right? That means the P relay always fires for a lit rollover, right?
- Do all of the lit rollovers sometimes score 5 and sometimes score 50? Pick one rollover and trip its switch. Manually reset its trip relay and trip the switch again. Repeat that several times. Do you always get the same result (50 or 5 points) or does it change? Repeat that for all the rollovers, one at a time.
- When a lit rollover scores 50 points does the J/5 point relay fire, even briefly? A bulb tester might be helpful here.
- When a lit rollover scores 5 points does the K/50 point relay fire at all?

#22 29 days ago

1. P always fires for lit RO, kicks out ball, and fires gong.
2. All ROs can score either 5 or 50 when lit.
3. Lit RO scoring 50 only energizes K.
4. Lit RO scoring 5 energizes both J and K.

I tried tightening the gap on the OR-BLK on P and widening the R-GR, but it didn't make a difference.

#23 29 days ago
Quoted from currieddog:

4. Lit RO scoring 5 energizes both J and K.

That doesn't sound right. Do the J and K relays stay on for the same amount of time? The schematic in reply #2 shows that when K fires, it should open the normally closed switch on the K relay (brown wire to blue-black wire) and prevent the J relay from firing. Is that not happening?

#24 28 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

That doesn't sound right. Do the J and K relays stay on for the same amount of time? The schematic in reply #2 shows that when K fires, it should open the normally closed switch on the K relay (brown wire to blue-black wire) and prevent the J relay from firing

They fire at the same time, but J appears to stay energized a bit longer. That NC sw. does open correctly.

If I block that sw. it will not score 5 on lit ROs (ball kicks out in BG and gong rings though), or 5 on unlit.

#26 26 days ago
Quoted from currieddog:

They fire at the same time, but J appears to stay energized a bit longer.

Can you elaborate on that? J should let go as soon as K fires. When the motor starts turning the score motor 1A switch starts sending pulses towards the N/1 point and M/10 point relays. (The 1A switch closes five times each time the score motor turns 120 degrees.)
Bowling Queen 1 10 point relays (resized).jpg
If both relays are closed you should be getting points on both 1 and 10 point score reels. If J fires on a lit rollover it should relax before the 1A switch closes the first time.

#27 26 days ago

Oooops, I wasn't clear on that: J does not fire when 50 pts. (lit RO) are scored. Both K and J fire when 5 on a lit RO are scored, and J looks to stay energized a little bit longer.

#28 26 days ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Oooops, I wasn't clear on that: J does not fire when 50 pts. (lit RO) are scored. Both K and J fire when 5 on a lit RO are scored, and J looks to stay energized a little bit longer.

That's what I thought. But K and J shouldn't fire together. If they both fire you should be getting points on both 1 and 10 point score reels as explained in reply #26.

If K fires reliably on a lit rollover you need to sort out why J is firing. The normally closed K relay switch at the bottom of the schematic in reply #17 should kill it.

#29 25 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

If K fires reliably on a lit rollover you need to sort out why J is firing. The normally closed K relay switch at the bottom of the schematic in reply #17 should kill it.

Still seems to me that it's something at P or coming out of the 13 pos. bank, and still very weird that blocking the R-GR on P (or the two sw. on G) makes for correct scoring everytime.

#30 25 days ago

Hi currieddog
in post-29 You write +/- : The 50 / 5 points are give always correct if I (You) block "switch on P-Relay (I have encircled red in the JPG) - or if I (You) block the two switches on G-Relay (I have encircled green). In post-11 I wrote about the theory "some electricity makes the 13-Position-Bank to move a bit" - maybe (?) some physical force - a mechanical bang, shaking makes the 13-Position-Bank to move a bit - question: Where are mounted the 13-Position-Bank ? - the Ball-Kicker on Rack ? - Add Ball Rack Advance ? Greetings Rolf

0Bowling-Queen-Work-03 (resized).jpg
#31 25 days ago

The 13 pos. bank is mounted under the PF, and swings down. It is held by two wingnuts. G is mounted in the BB right below N, M, and Q relays.

The 5/50 fault occurs with the PF up and me just pushing the RO wire forms as well as in regular play, so I'm not sure about shaking. I'm going to go thru the bank yet again though, because it seems that the cause has a good chance of being there.

#32 25 days ago

The bank is seated fully, right? i.e. one side hasn't slipped a mm or two where the wing nuts hold it ?

I used to own a Gottlieb Bank-A-Ball and a few times the scoring on the rollovers got wonky and inconsistent, it always turned out the bank needed to be reseated.

#33 24 days ago
Quoted from Runbikeskilee:

The bank is seated fully, right? i.e. one side hasn't slipped a mm or two where the wing nuts hold it ?

It's solid. Still have the mystery of why blocking a sw. on P or two on G causes correct scoring every time. Could the signal be too weak to fire everything?

2 weeks later
#35 5 days ago

I replaced what appeared to be an ok K (50 pt.-read 1.5 ohm) coil after the targets started scoring flaky and now it scores 50 pts. on lit ROs ALMOST all the time. Very, very occasional 5 pt. will sneak in. WTH though?

This is kind of similar to replacing an ok P coil on Aquarius and the odd kickout hole scoring getting resolved. Remember that one, Rolf?

#36 4 days ago

I changed this to resolved as it played correctly all of last nite. Thanks to everyone who checked in!!

#37 4 days ago

It looks like the K relay coil (A-7676) should be 15 ohms. I'm glad you got it sorted though. This one was tricky.

#38 4 days ago

Hi currieddog , MarkG , Runbikeskilee +
the schematics and coil-charts says to K-50-Point-Relay, A7676, 15 Ohm - to J-5-Point-Relay, A7676, 15 Ohm - to P-Series-Relay, A487, 2.5 Ohm - to #1 etc. -Rollover-Relay, A1119, 2 Ohm. I know this, this
https://pinballmedic.net/coilchart.html
https://www.flippers.com/coil-resistance.html
Do You know other places to look up OHMs on coils ? I only have cheap meters, I cannot measure OHMs. Currieddog, as You have taken out the old K-Relay-Coil (post-35: Reads 1.5 Ohms) - please measure again - also measure again the coil on J-Relay (both are A7676 coils).

A problem I see is in post-9: You have mentioned "K-Relay probably is fine as the targets (red, blue, white) always score 50 points".
Another problem I see is in post-33 "Why blocking a sw. on P or two on G causes correct scoring every time" - this is strange.

Yes I have some memories on Aquarius "replacing an OK coil" - there and also here I do not mind "closing the file, dossier, record" --- and be happy with "the pin runs satisfactory". Greetings Rolf

#39 4 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

It looks like the K relay coil (A-7676) should be 15 ohms

Ooop, forgot the x10, so it was 15. So very odd.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

A problem I see is in post-9: You have mentioned "K-Relay probably is fine as the targets (red, blue, white) always score 50 points".

It started scoring in some multiples of 10, Rolf (thankfully!) so that's why I replaced it; scoring anywhere from 10-30 or so.

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