This circuit seems pretty timing sensitive - there's kind of a race condition in it.
Bowling Queen 50pt relay (resized).jpg
When a rollover switch closes for the first time (use the Top Left RO in this example), a pulse goes through the make/break switch on the #1 trip relay then through the #1 trip relay coil and the series P relay coil. What should happen is that the P relay should fire and close the P relay switch in the red box to fire the K/50 point relay.

What happens at essentially the same time though is that the #1 trip relay fires, which throws the make/break switch to the other side and connects the rollover switch to the J/5 point relay. When that make/break switch flips power to the P relay is cut because the P relay doesn't have a lock in circuit to hold it.

What should happen is that the P relay switch in the red box should fire the K/50 point relay which should open the normally closed K/50 point relay switch and prevent the J/5 point relay from firing (or disconnect it if it has fired).

What may be happening is that the P relay switch in the red box is gapped wide enough that the #1 make/break switch cuts power to the P relay before the switch in the red box can reliably fire the K/50 point relay. So the J/5 point relay fires instead because that normally closed K/5 point relay switch never opens. Or that P relay switch might just be dirty.

/Mark

Yeah, the variability on 50 or 5 points tells me that the K relay isn't firing reliably when you close a lit rollover. Does it fire, or try to fire when you only get 5 points on a lit rollover?

Something else you could try is to block he normally closed switch on the K relay so the J relay can't fire. Then experiment with the rollovers to see if you can figure out when the K relay does and doesn't fire. Maybe hold down the rollover and jiggle things to see what might make the K relay fire when it doesn't initially.

I think they should always score 50:
Bowling Queen Targets (resized).jpg
They can only fire the K/50 point relay. There's no way for them to fire the J/5 point relay.

When you block the normally closed K relay switch, do you always get 50 points on a lit rollover, or do you sometimes get nothing?

That part shows that the A/B/C White/Blue/Red Target relays change the values of other things like the pop bumpers, sling shots etc. from 1 point to 10 points.

The bell and backglass animation means the P relay is firing as it should as you suggested earlier. I still think the problem is in the top line of the schematic in reply #2, probably in or around that P relay switch. Either it's not closing reliably, or there's a cold solder joint, or a dirty connection somewhere, etc. Or maybe the K relay is mechanically bound up somehow. If you manually close the P relay does the K relay fire reliably?

Yeah, the K relay is probably fine. But getting to it through that P switch is the problem. Maybe a loose contact in the switch blade?

You might to be able to measure the resistance with the power off between the orange-black wire and red-white wire around the P switch. Clip in your test leads and then manually close the P relay. Does the resistance ever fail to drop to an ohm or so?

Hi currieddog , MarkG +
I guess we agree on Mark's post-2 - delicate stuff. Currieddog writes in post-3 "... can get maybe 5-50-5-5-50 or 50-50-5-50-5 ..." and in post-1 +/- "EACH Rollover behaves faulty". See my JPG - I added from the list of relays the switches to each relay - and have marked orange the simple "1B, 1C" type - to turn-off the light and to switch "from getting 50 points to getting 5 points". IF (if, if) the fault would only be on ONE relay I'd then say "the 'Make-and-Brake-Switch' on that relay is no good". A rather crazy theory: The Switch "S-Armature" is no good - during play now and then the switch let pass a bit of current - the Set-Up-Coil "13 Position Bank Setup" fires a bit - brings switches on the relays out of place a bit.

Currieddog - want to use an old, cheap, Edison-Type-bulb / Bedroom-Light as an Test-Light when You are playing - does the Test-Light now and then flicker ?
Do You get the faulty behaviour when You have lifted the playfield and manually trigger the Rollovers ? Want to concentrate on the two "Top left and right Rollovers" --- once You have got once the "50 points": You always get 5 points, never can get 50 points because the relay has plunged, has thrown the Make-and-Brake-Switch --- or the M&B-Switch is faulty. Greetings Rolf

0Bowling-Queen-Work-01 (resized).jpg

Hi currieddog
to Your post-9 "funny set-up": I did search in the schematics the four Norrmally-Open-Switches on P-Relay - see the JPG --- one wire of color-Red+Wh comes to the switches - to one switch - short jumpers - maybe naked jumpers connect the four switches (one switchblade each switch). Greetings Rolf

0Bowling-Queen-Work-02 (resized).jpg

As it should.

The switch with the red-green wire on the P relay fires the Ball Rack Advance unit in the backbox and shouldn't affect scoring. What seems more likely to me is that whatever you did to the switch with the red-green wire made the switch with the orange-black wire to the K relay close reliably.

That's what Rolf's schematic in reply #14 shows. When the P relay fires, four different wires should get shorted to red+white. I'm not convinced that orange-black is.

That gives me another idea. What happens if you short two of those switches together with an alligator clip test lead like this?
Bowling Queen P relay switches (resized).jpg
The theory is that the orange-black switch on the P relay isn't closing reliably. If you short orange-black to slate-red on the P relay, that bypsses the suspected switch, and has the other switch drive both the Gong and the K relay. If the orange-black switch is the problem this should make the K relay fire and reliably give you 50 points for a lit rollover. Beware that your gong will fire longer though since it will now have to wait for the K relay to relax at the end of the Score Motor cycle (switch 2B).

Lots of observations here that don't make sense to me yet. Can we take a step back? Things I'd like to understand include:

- Lit rollovers always kick out a ball and fire the gong, right? That means the P relay always fires for a lit rollover, right?
- Do all of the lit rollovers sometimes score 5 and sometimes score 50? Pick one rollover and trip its switch. Manually reset its trip relay and trip the switch again. Repeat that several times. Do you always get the same result (50 or 5 points) or does it change? Repeat that for all the rollovers, one at a time.
- When a lit rollover scores 50 points does the J/5 point relay fire, even briefly? A bulb tester might be helpful here.
- When a lit rollover scores 5 points does the K/50 point relay fire at all?

That doesn't sound right. Do the J and K relays stay on for the same amount of time? The schematic in reply #2 shows that when K fires, it should open the normally closed switch on the K relay (brown wire to blue-black wire) and prevent the J relay from firing. Is that not happening?

Can you elaborate on that? J should let go as soon as K fires. When the motor starts turning the score motor 1A switch starts sending pulses towards the N/1 point and M/10 point relays. (The 1A switch closes five times each time the score motor turns 120 degrees.)
Bowling Queen 1 10 point relays (resized).jpg
If both relays are closed you should be getting points on both 1 and 10 point score reels. If J fires on a lit rollover it should relax before the 1A switch closes the first time.

That's what I thought. But K and J shouldn't fire together. If they both fire you should be getting points on both 1 and 10 point score reels as explained in reply #26.

If K fires reliably on a lit rollover you need to sort out why J is firing. The normally closed K relay switch at the bottom of the schematic in reply #17 should kill it.

Hi currieddog
in post-29 You write +/- : The 50 / 5 points are give always correct if I (You) block "switch on P-Relay (I have encircled red in the JPG) - or if I (You) block the two switches on G-Relay (I have encircled green). In post-11 I wrote about the theory "some electricity makes the 13-Position-Bank to move a bit" - maybe (?) some physical force - a mechanical bang, shaking makes the 13-Position-Bank to move a bit - question: Where are mounted the 13-Position-Bank ? - the Ball-Kicker on Rack ? - Add Ball Rack Advance ? Greetings Rolf

0Bowling-Queen-Work-03 (resized).jpg

The bank is seated fully, right? i.e. one side hasn't slipped a mm or two where the wing nuts hold it ?

I used to own a Gottlieb Bank-A-Ball and a few times the scoring on the rollovers got wonky and inconsistent, it always turned out the bank needed to be reseated.

It looks like the K relay coil (A-7676) should be 15 ohms. I'm glad you got it sorted though. This one was tricky.

Hi currieddog , MarkG , Runbikeskilee +
the schematics and coil-charts says to K-50-Point-Relay, A7676, 15 Ohm - to J-5-Point-Relay, A7676, 15 Ohm - to P-Series-Relay, A487, 2.5 Ohm - to #1 etc. -Rollover-Relay, A1119, 2 Ohm. I know this, this
https://pinballmedic.net/coilchart.html
https://www.flippers.com/coil-resistance.html
Do You know other places to look up OHMs on coils ? I only have cheap meters, I cannot measure OHMs. Currieddog, as You have taken out the old K-Relay-Coil (post-35: Reads 1.5 Ohms) - please measure again - also measure again the coil on J-Relay (both are A7676 coils).

A problem I see is in post-9: You have mentioned "K-Relay probably is fine as the targets (red, blue, white) always score 50 points".
Another problem I see is in post-33 "Why blocking a sw. on P or two on G causes correct scoring every time" - this is strange.

Yes I have some memories on Aquarius "replacing an OK coil" - there and also here I do not mind "closing the file, dossier, record" --- and be happy with "the pin runs satisfactory". Greetings Rolf