(Topic ID: 171530)

Borg's Best?


By rai

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 131 posts
  • 69 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Hougie
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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Linked Games

Topic poll

“which is your favorite John Borg pin from the last 6 years?”

  • IM 37 votes
    8%
  • Tron 87 votes
    19%
  • Metallica 183 votes
    40%
  • TWD 105 votes
    23%
  • XM 24 votes
    5%
  • Kiss 10 votes
    2%
  • Avatar 5 votes
    1%
  • BBH 6 votes
    1%

(457 votes)

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There are 131 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
#51 2 years ago

Kiss by a country mile! The flow on this pin is amazing, fast games and brutal drains from missed shots. I love the game as is, if this game sees another update with the cities doing more than just an excuse for call outs it will hopefully get more love. They nailed the art package and paying homage to the original art package was brilliant IMHO. I do enjoy MET and TWD also but those games lack the flow Kiss has with that set up middle ramp and difficult right ramp.

#52 2 years ago
Quoted from Kingpin22:

Kiss by a country mile!

#53 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Honestly, I pretty much tune out the music after the first few seconds after launching the ball. I like some of Metallica's music, but the music seems like it takes a backseat to the pin itself. So yes, I'd say you could enjoy the pin without caring too much about the music.

I can put on a Donny & Marie CD next time you are over playing it...LOL

#54 2 years ago

Met is fantastic. I gain a deeper appreciation of it the more I play it. Definitely deserving of the high praise it receives.

#55 2 years ago

IM, TWD, Tron and MET are all great pins by Borg. But don't discount how much Lyman has made these pins as great as they are (not quite sure how much Lyman had to do with IM).

Pins like Avatar and BBH are very underrated.

XM and KISS blow.

#56 2 years ago

IMHO TWD is in the lead by inches. I'll be ordering a MET in the next few weeks, already own IM and TWD. But I do have to agree with everyone else that has said Lyman has made some of those games vastly more popular than they would have been otherwise. It's really hard to separate quality of the layout vs. quality of the code, at least it is for me.

Quoted from RobT:

XM and KISS blow.

Everyone hates XM, I don't get it. Maybe its because I never played it when the code was terrible, but the code was terrible on TWD early on too and people love it now. I'll own one someday, its just not as high of a priority as other games. I'll never understand the hate for XM

#57 2 years ago
Quoted from colonel_caverne:

I think you had wrotten in another thread that Met was hitting Sparky over and over. Changed you mind?

In a tournament, Sparky-time is a valid strategy. However, if you are down by 200 million. You gotta shoot the whole PF and get to at least 1 crank it up mode. I would also like to say that MET is the most re-reviewed game I have played and no matter how much I want to not like it, inline drops always make me smile.

#59 2 years ago

MET, TRON, TWD, and Avatar. Avatar is definitely underrated, it has one of the best sound and call out integrations in pinball.

#60 2 years ago

I traded XMLE for TWD and probably think the code is better/more intense for TWD, this may be something because it's new to me and I had XM for 4 years. XM was great but something didn't make it a keeper probably the code.

#61 2 years ago

Considering all the lackluster feels for XM here I have a question.

How many of you have completed The danger room?
How many of you have completed Dark Phoenix?
How many of you have completed both in the same game?

harder settings for modes?

I don't know, maybe it's just me and I'm a fan-boy for this table. I definitely know of some T-ron fans out there that love that game like no other...

#62 2 years ago

I like MET best

I also love Tron, TFTC, IM and minus a few callouts XM

I also like TWD since last code update.

Borg FTW

#63 2 years ago
Quoted from Caucasian2Step:

Considering all the lackluster feels for XM here I have a question.
How many of you have completed The danger room?
How many of you have completed Dark Phoenix?
How many of you have completed both in the same game?
harder settings for modes?
I don't know, maybe it's just me and I'm a fan-boy for this table. I definitely know of some T-ron fans out there that love that game like no other...

It's not the depth of the rules that makes x-men less desirable. It's the horrendous sound package, wolverine toy fail, moving ramp toy fail, and wolverine multiball fail mainly.

#64 2 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

It's not the depth of the rules that makes x-men less desirable. It's the horrendous sound package, wolverine toy fail, moving ramp toy fail, and wolverine multiball fail mainly.

#65 2 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

It's not the depth of the rules that makes x-men less desirable. It's the horrendous sound package, wolverine toy fail, moving ramp toy fail, and wolverine multiball fail mainly.

Sure, but pinball browser solves the sound package issue and a newton bracket mod that solves the wolverine issue. As far as the moving ramp, yeah, I can see how that could be annoying for sure.

#66 2 years ago
Quoted from Glarrownage:

Sure, but pinball browser solves the sound package issue and a newton bracket mod that solves the wolverine issue. As far as the moving ramp, yeah, I can see how that could be annoying for sure.

The moving ramp can be fun. I learned pretty quickly not to shoot it when it's getting ready to move. Once you get a feel for it, most of the drain risk from the ramp is minimal. The ramp is the least exciting toy on the LE, but it's not terrible.

I thought I was going to hate the voices and callouts when I first bought the machine based on everything I had read. However, since there are 20+ characters doing voices in the game, the variety keeps any of the "not as good" voices and callouts from getting annoying. The voices are bit cartoony/cheesy, but they add to comic book theme of the game. The sound package has grown on me and I honestly have no desire to change it.

All in all, I really enjoy XM and I find it to be one of my favorite machines.

#67 2 years ago

I've always been a Borg fan. 4 out of 6 of my pins are Borg. Resistance is futile.

#68 2 years ago

Can't you just disable the moving ramp on xmenle?

-1
#69 2 years ago

TWD theme is my favorite but I think the layout with the cheap drains from both the prison magnet and the pops should have been fixed. The dependency on the drop target bank is a coding choice and probably not Borgs. It kills the flow.

Metallica is the best overall package. I don't have an XM available.

#70 2 years ago

Tron. He has done so many great games, but Tron is still my favorite. I can't decide after that. IM, TWD, MET in no particular order.

But the thing that really stands out in the poll results is that the Lyman / Borg titles are the shit. They are a special combination.

#71 2 years ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

Can't you just disable the moving ramp?

You can... but it's easier to complain.

I'm mostly pleasantly surprised at the positive comments about so many of his titles. As many Borg games as I own, Tron is not likely to ever see a place in my collection. I play Tron on location all the time, but games like MET, IM, BBH, XM have much more balanced playfields and less linear rules.

#72 2 years ago
Quoted from Baiter:

You can... but it's easier to complain.
I'm mostly pleasantly surprised at the positive comments about so many of his titles. As many Borg games as I own, Tron is not likely to ever see a place in my collection. I play Tron on location all the time, but games like MET, IM, BBH, XM have much more balanced playfields and less linear rules.

Yea i really dislike tron for some reason and i just cant figure out y . Its just not fun is all i can come up with

#73 2 years ago
Quoted from Caucasian2Step:

Considering all the lackluster feels for XM here I have a question.
How many of you have completed The danger room?
How many of you have completed Dark Phoenix?
How many of you have completed both in the same game?
harder settings for modes?
I don't know, maybe it's just me and I'm a fan-boy for this table. I definitely know of some T-ron fans out there that love that game like no other...

Never. always one character missing at my best.
But it is not for this reason that i finally sold my x-men LE. something was missing to my tastes. certainly the most difficult, technic game i have ever played. i'm interested to know what do you think about that as you seem to be the guy who has played the most pinball machines there!
what i don't like:
- sound package. Boring after a while. No "Jackpot" callout.
- some part of the code. mods are built like a video game with health capability to destroy. xavier mod with hidden character, how to recognize him with that dmd resolution?
- this game is so difficult, gets so many tough shots that i couldn't have fun, was work.
my best score is 161M, maybe should have set it up with 5 balls to end it.

#74 2 years ago

XMle is one that I always try to like more, but with the way the code was hashed out and dealing with the fix for the fuse blowing has set me back at times ( I fixed it, but wtf).
Game play with combos (Deadpool) can be a thrill along with the whole layout.

XMle is like that amazing girlfriend you once had with a real shitty past before she met you.

#75 2 years ago

IRONMAN gets my vote due to it being during the dark times of pinball and in my opinion it's the best Borg has put out as a complete package at a time where he had very little resources and it's one of the rare times I think Stern has nailed! the theme in almost every aspect - art (yeah it's photoshopped but it works) sound one of Sterns best sounding games & the gameplay/theme integration is just brutal and fun.

IRONMAN has earned its place as a great pin and it deserves it, if it was made now with a bigger BOM who's to say it would be as good?

#76 2 years ago

XM rules while there is a lot to do just seem half baked to me. As if Stern just said that's good enough, but didn't go the extra mile. As if I was still waiting for an update but know it won't come. IMO to get to DP you need to defeat all the Villians is not even possible for my skill. In LOTR just starting all the modes gets to TABA or DSTR and in TWD starting all the modes gets you to Terminus, in Tron it gets you to SOS. At least I have something to shoot for. But knowing that I'd need to defeat all the Villians to me means that DP doesn't even exist. Easy enough fix IMO that they could even have a few option choices in the menu to dial it into an acceptable level. Restarting completed heroes is another bugaboo for me. If I am aiming for the last hero, the last thing I need is to be restarting a mode I've already defeated.

I'm not saying the rules of XM are horrible but more that they didn't live up to the potential.

#77 2 years ago
Quoted from rai:

IM which is so easy

These are not words I've seen put together before.

#78 2 years ago
Quoted from Astropin:

These are not words I've seen put together before.

No really easy to explain. I can have a new player who's never played pinball before. I can explain this is how you start Monger, this is how you start Whiplash, this is how you start Boogie, this is IRON MAN targets, this is Drone targets. If you light the character inserts gets you this, if you light the Mark inserts gets you that. Takes me about 3 minutes to explain. Now ACDC for example, I still can't explain some things like note shots.

IM is very easy for beginners just loops and ramps and stand up targets. Even if it's a hard game to master it's easy to step up to and play.

#79 2 years ago
Quoted from rai:

No really easy to explain. I can have a new player who's never played pinball before. I can explain this is how you start Monger, this is how you start Whiplash, this is how you start Boogie, this is IRON MAN targets, this is Drone targets lik gt the character inserts gets you this, light the Mark inserts gets you that. Takes me about 3 minutes to explain. Now with ACDC for example, I still can't explain some things like note shots.
Also IM is very easy for beginners just loops and ramps and stand up targets. Even if it's a hard game to master it's easy to step up to and play.

Lol.....I knew what you meant. But IM is one ass kicking machine, which is why I love it.

#80 2 years ago

Looks like Met is the winner with as many votes as the next two contestants TWD and Tron

IM in fourth place with as many votes as the next three choices put together.

#81 2 years ago

It seems like MET is king based on the responses, and I certainly don't disagree. Titles like TWD and Tron are strong honorable mentions.

TFTC gets some love here too, which is great to read because I too love mine, especially with the latest code update.

Op, can we add TFTC to the poll?

#82 2 years ago
Quoted from davebart5:

It seems like MET is king based on the responses, and I certainly don't disagree. Titles like TWD and Tron are strong honorable mentions.
TFTC gets some love here too, which is great to read because I too love mine, especially with the latest code update.
Op, can we add TFTC to the poll?

Can't add to the poll but I can put another poll (new) some of his older games. Not sure how many items are allowed in a poll, but I'll do it sometime later.

#83 2 years ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

Yea i really dislike tron for some reason and i just cant figure out y . Its just not fun is all i can come up with

My reason is that it plays clunky. Hard to make shots and doesn't flow like it looks like it should.

#84 2 years ago

Wow, nothing plays like Tron, its a flow monster and the best of Borgs designs. Maybe yours wasn't setup properly. First time I ever heard anyone say Tron plays clunky.

Quoted from jawjaw:

My reason is that it plays clunky. Hard to make shots and doesn't flow like it looks like it should.

#85 2 years ago
Quoted from rai:

IM is very easy for beginners just loops and ramps and stand up targets. Even if it's a hard game to master it's easy to step up to and play.

That's part of why IM gets my vote, at the time it was made pinball was on its arse, having easy to understand games that offered lots of lights and sounds for doing literally anything was needed and it's still one of Sterns best uses of a theme. If they hadn't made a complete mess of TWD licence I would have voted for that.

But IM deserves credit for being a whole lot of kick ass game at a time when everything was being taken out of games to keep their BOMs low.

#86 2 years ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

Wow, nothing plays like Tron, its a flow monster and the best of Borgs designs. Maybe yours wasn't setup properly. First time I ever heard anyone say Tron plays clunky.

TRON does require some tweaking to get it shooting silky smooth especially that right inner orbit but once it's setup it's one of the best for sure.

#87 2 years ago

I own TRON, MET, AVATAR and TWD. I have read that some folks say Tron is not fun, and that always blows me away... kind of like when my buddy tells me he doesn't like a medium rare ribeye. I realize experiences may vary, I just happen to feel Tron is brilliant, truly walks the line of easy to understand hard to master, the others mentioned are great too.

Avatar is really a hidden gem, people mention the one ramp all the time, I hope they come around, would love others to have a much fun on that game as I have had. If you haven't played it, try that game with an open mind.. you may be very surprised..

#88 2 years ago

Mop, best pin ever!

#89 2 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

It's not the depth of the rules that makes x-men less desirable. It's the horrendous sound package, wolverine toy fail, moving ramp toy fail, and wolverine multiball fail mainly.

The sounds are hilarious to me. Magneto sounds like Thurston Howell III. I will admit to the fact that my Wolvie has been replaced with this: https://mezelmods.com/collections/x-men-pinball-mods/products/x-men-wolverine-newton-bracket?variant=1151098244 I love the game like this and love the shots to Beast/Wolverine/Prof X like this.

Knowing your modes is paramount to this game. Your mileage may vary. You can start your edification here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RXQg7NEYahyzLrrT-E3WXAmhKNtT-eVfqc5GEWZdHL0/edit#heading=h.gca79vh2ek4

#90 2 years ago

Code on TWD is better than MET, but the layout on MET is better than TWD. MET looks WAY better than TWD. TWD is the better theme, but the theme is poorly implemented. MET has good dots, but TWD has great dots.

#91 2 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Code on TWD is better than MET, but the layout on MET is better than TWD. MET looks WAY better than TWD. TWD is the better theme, but the theme is poorly implemented. MET has good dots, but TWD has great dots.

So? Tie?

#92 2 years ago

TWD wins for me. It's more brutal than MET and gets my adrenaline pumping more, and that's enough to put it in front of MET.

#93 2 years ago

I didn't mind XM voices, like the Beast and Storm etc

Guess it came down to I think TWD is better or at least new to me.

I hated to sell XM but in place I got TWD and got Lotr without my wife getting mad it was like I only got one pin net.

#94 2 years ago
Quoted from rai:

I didn't mind XM voices, like the Beast and Storm etc
Guess it came down to I think TWD is better or at least new to me.

I don't mind XM voices either. Some of the most enjoyable pinball machines are the ones with some humor... look at the top 10 overall. XM has some funny quotes, and a few exaggerated voices which add to the humor, intentional or not.

I agree one of the great things about IM is that the rules are fairly straight forward to explain (except for multiball stacking, and you'll never see DoD multiball). XM is similarly simple as well: "finish all heroes for mini wizard 1, finish all villains for mini wizard 2, and you'll also never see the main wizard mode."

Quoted from luvthatapex2:

First time I ever heard anyone say Tron plays clunky.

That right side is clunky, all you have is a flow-stopping scoop and a shot through the pops that even the best players will miss more often than not. XM has a shot through the pops as well but Wolverine is an actual target instead of a pop... it's more satisfying.

#95 2 years ago

The myth of TWD prison magnet and pops stdm drains keeps going. Frankly, one doesn't see many posts about it on TWD threads any more from the many many new owners and compared to all the machines now sold. It long ago was shown to not be a significant issue with a well setup machine for almost everyone (as often noted and discussed in TWD threads). And there were simple fixes made available for those who preferred those options.

I see the TWD playfield design as spiritual successor to XM and MET. Lyman infers similar; lots of similarities, some differences. Personally, I really don't like dead end bash features beyond bash toys in playfield designs such as the KISS starfield area or MET inline drop targets. YMMV. OTOH I really enjoyed the double playfield feature in TWD LE/Prem where a ramp alternatively turns into a bash toy during certain limited gameplay (not too often either). I also really like the woodbury shot; it's a straight shot but challenging to many people (and me) and a relatively unique design element. People should think about what they like vs don't and post it up. It becomes easier to understand why some people prefer certain machines.

#96 2 years ago

Just had a GREAT game on TWD and I'd have to say that it's *A LOT* down to code. If only XM was as well coded!!!!!

Yes XM has a lot of rules and nice shots like Gambit Hurry Up, but overall just not as intense to me as TWD multi balls (let alone the mini wizards on TWD that I've yet to reach). Might be the kick ass NIN sound package that was done by Pinsider. All around intense and fun.

I was not in on TWD or Metallica when they came out, I can't recall how the old code was if it was bad.

I got IM and Tron after they were essentially done but I got XM from day one, so I know how bad code can hurt a pin, basically XM was a dog for a while and I never played it for months on end. Eventually XM got ok but never to the level of Met or TWD.

#97 2 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Just had a GREAT game on TWD and I'd have to say that it's *A LOT* down to code. If only XM was as well coded!!!!!
Yes XM has a lot of rules and nice shots like Gambit Hurry Up, but overall just not as intense to me as TWD multi balls (let alone the mini wizards on TWD that I've yet to reach). Might be the kick ass NIN sound package that was done by Pinsider. All around intense and fun.
I was not in on TWD or Metallica when they came out, I can't recall how the old code was if it was bad.
I got IM and Tron after they were essentially done but I got XM from day one, so I know how bad code can hurt a pin, basically XM was a dog for a while and I never played it for months on end. Eventually XM got ok but never to the level of Met or TWD.

You haven't seen anything till u see horde mode....simply amazing and one the best in pinball. Im sure terminus and last man standing are amazing also but i haven't seen them

#98 2 years ago
Quoted from Baiter:

I play Tron on location all the time, but games like MET, IM, BBH, XM have much more balanced playfields and less linear rules.

Tron code is linear? In what way? You can finish any of the objectives in any order, and once lit, get to the wizard mode. And you can repeat some of them if hit enough times. That's how most pinball code works IMO. Kind of like IM and MET.

XM has a more balanced playfield than Tron? That left side with the lower pops and giant wolverine figure makes me disagree. BBH is also not know to be very balanced PF wise either.

And what does Tron have that kicks ass? Theme and Olivia Wylde. Tron kicks ass!!!

#99 2 years ago
Quoted from dzoomer:

The myth of TWD prison magnet and pops stdm drains keeps going.

It's absolutely not a myth if the game is not leveled. I played one on location that drained out of the pops 90% of the time. I took it as a challenge, so played a half dozen straight games... I had a ball save 2-3 times per game, and tilted it out 1-2 times per game trying to save it out of the pops. After some time I was probably annoying people nearby with the constant array of tilt sound effects every few minutes, so what started out as a challenge ended in sheer frustration.

Quoted from Khabbi:

Tron code is linear? In what way? You can finish any of the objectives in any order, and once lit, get to the wizard mode.

You are correct, but in practice I feel the game should be played the same path every time... shoot Quorra. By the time I start Quorra I've accidentally started every mode other than Disc, so I go for that and I'm at SoS after only focusing on 2 shots. The rules may not actually be linear but the implementation (both rules and playfield) feels that way. I'm referring to modes rather than optimal scoring techniques. In contrast I feel I have to be more purposeful in game strategy with IM, XM, MET, TWD, even BBH, which eliminates Tron from my interest in a home environment.

#100 2 years ago
Quoted from Baiter:

It's absolutely not a myth if the game is not leveled.

LOL. How is that different from what I posted? (Hint, read more than the first sentence you quoted). Flipping the wording around still results in the same thing I said. So what's your point?

If you would have looked at earlier posts you would find one that says the pin design wasn't fixed and it drains stdm from the pops and prison magnet. That is very different from what I responded with, as well as what you posted above.

And fwiw, leveling the machine may not necessarily be the answer (it's true if you get the nuance of what I mean).

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