(Topic ID: 191857)

Borg or Ritchie - who's the best!


By MacLean

3 years ago



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  • 146 posts
  • 66 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by iceman44
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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    There are 146 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 3.
    #101 3 years ago

    I love how people use the term recycled as if it's a bad thing. It's their style! Every designer has their own style, even Lawlor. It's like music, bands have a style and they keep to it. When they divert or do something different, it usually fails and they lose fans. Same thing in pinball; there's only so many ways to lineup shots with the geometry and physics of pinball.

    #102 3 years ago

    Oh man, like the picture of the Star Trek crew battling the Star Wars crew, it's hard to say.

    It seems to me like Borg's most well loved designs always have something borrowed: Jurassic Park has a similar layout to Whirlwind, TRON has a similar layout to Funhouse, Metallica has a similar layout to Monster Bash, Aerosmith has a similar layout to Medieval Madness.

    There's nothing inherently wrong with that either. Each game still feels different from the inspiration it's drawn from, and thus still gives a unique experience, while still offering familiar gameplay and satisfying shots.

    Steve Ritchie, IMHO has a longer track record of individually unique games. I think it's difficult to compare the two, as each is a product of their time. Games like ST:TTG, BK, HS (II), and more recently AC/DC are all highly praised games and hold tremendous gameplay value even years down the road.

    Just for fun, out of the two designers, my vote goes to Pat Lawlor, even if his more recent endeavors with Stern have fallen a little bit behind the curve.

    #103 3 years ago
    Quoted from mbaumle:

    It seems to me like Borg's most well loved designs always have something borrowed: Jurassic Park has a similar layout to Whirlwind, TRON has a similar layout to Funhouse, Metallica has a similar layout to Monster Bash, Aerosmith has a similar layout to Medieval Madness.

    You could design a game from scratch without looking at or referencing another game and 500 people on here will yell that the layout looks just like X! Pinball has been around for many decades and there is only so much you can do (and keep it fun) with a 20"x42" rectangle (or 27"x45" widebody).

    Quoted from mbaumle:

    Steve Ritchie, IMHO has a longer track record of individually unique games.

    Really? I love Steve Ritchie games...one of my all time favorite designers. But there is no arguing that many (most) of his games follow the same formula (which is fine by me).

    #104 3 years ago

    Joe Kaminkow FTW!

    #105 3 years ago
    Quoted from MacLean:

    I did up a quick chart to make it clear which designer's pins have codes complete & ones that "still" do not. Interesting.

    Thanks for the nice summary chart below maclean you can add Dialed-In under Lawlor.

    It's nice that there can be such difference in styles that people have a favorite designer. Heck my wife thinks "they all look alike".

    Best Designer ->

    Lawlor wins by a nose -> Lawlor -> S Ritchie -> Borg

    .
    Funnest games to play / Lastability ->

    Lawlor wins by a whisker -> Lawlor -> Borg -> S Ritchie

    IMG_0083 (resized).JPG

    #106 3 years ago
    Quoted from paul_8788:

    At the end of the day, people can spout whatever opinions they want, however they want. Don't see how they can get all butt hurt though when someone does the same thing about them.

    He represents a business. He's not a couch jockey sharing an opinion about a game. Doesn't matter if he's right or wrong in his opinion, you don't target comments at your customer base, or community where they hang out.

    Shouldn't have to point out the difference. Much respect for Steve the designer, but he needs to grow an extra layer of skin or get Stern marketing to do their job better. Point fingers in the right direction. RGP always a viable option for those that feel Pinside too toxic. I enjoy the banter. Shows that hobbyists care.

    #107 3 years ago
    Quoted from badbilly27:

    He represents a business. He's not a couch jockey sharing an opinion about a game. Doesn't matter if he's right or wrong in his opinion, you don't target comments at your customer base, or community where they hang out.
    Shouldn't have to point out the difference. Much respect for Steve the designer, but he needs to grow an extra layer of skin or get Stern marketing to do their job better. Point fingers in the right direction. RGP always an viable option for those that feel Pinside too toxic. I enjoy the banter. Shows that hobbyists care.

    Maybe the lack of video is a big F U from Ritchie to Pinside haters?

    They know they are going to sell the shit out of SW with or without a Jack Danger stream.

    I don't understand their approach to the community despite the fact that there is an unreal amount hate thrown their way.

    #108 3 years ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    Maybe the lack of video is a big F U from Ritchie to Pinside haters?

    I like to believe Ritchie is bigger than that. I hope it's just an issue they are still working it.

    #109 3 years ago
    Quoted from badbilly27:

    He represents a business. He's not a couch jockey sharing an opinion about a game. Doesn't matter if he's right or wrong in his opinion, you don't target comments at your customer base, or community where they hang out.
    Shouldn't have to point out the difference. Much respect for Steve the designer, but he needs to grow an extra layer of skin or get Stern marketing to do their job better. Point fingers in the right direction. RGP always a viable option for those that feel Pinside too toxic. I enjoy the banter. Shows that hobbyists care.

    Yes, enjoyable banter. It is all fun and games as the couch jockey. Not speaking for SR or anyone else in the industry, but if I was reading consistently negative stuff about everything I did for my job, and the majority of it was coming from one site, I'd probably get a little p*ssed off too. At the very least I would start tuning a lot of the banter out, which isn't great, but is human nature. And until someone has been in the same position, don't see how they can judge. Yeah, he works for Stern, and maybe he should have kept his opinion to himself. But he didn't and because he isn't a prefect PR robot and pretending that every post on Pinside is a little pearl of wisdom people get their underwear in a twist. Maybe everyone should grow an extra layer of skin.

    #110 3 years ago

    To semi-quote the man himself, "if a dozen people on pinside say the art on a set of blurry low-rez pictures of SW sucks, then the art on the low rez blurry pictures of SW sucks!"

    If Stern wants to make a positive first impression with their new games they should have made an effort and put their best foot forward with plenty of hi-rez pics and videos when it was announced. They are either incompetent at PR (nothing new about that), or they are hiding something they know isn't going to be well-received.

    Having said that, I'd only judge a game once I've played it. Not my job to critique Stern's or JJP's artwork for them before the game ships, but if they show something they should expect feedback. You only get one chance to make a first impression, seems like a pretty simple concept.

    #111 3 years ago
    Quoted from paul_8788:

    Yeah, he works for Stern, and maybe he should have kept his opinion to himself. But he didn't and because he isn't a prefect PR robot and pretending that every post on Pinside is a little pearl of wisdom people get their underwear in a twist. Maybe everyone should grow an extra layer of skin.

    Imagine if he worked for Apple or Microsoft - numerous forums, analyst reviews, media criticism. I see Jonathan Ive and Eddy Cue never keeping their opinion to themselves facing customer criticism.

    Agree to disagree on this one. It's tough to be an athlete, model and game designer - someone always has an opinion about you and your work. Part of the territory though. Along with the accolades comes the criticism. Maybe not fair, but it becomes part of the job. Just like the quote "Never get in a land war in Asia", you "never critique your fan/customer base" or community where they hang.

    The real culprit is the go-to-market campaign - or lack thereof. But back to the thread topic, SR is a terrific designer.

    #112 3 years ago

    My collection answers this question for me. I have 5 Borg and 1 Ritchie design. I sold 1 other Ritchie game, but never a Borg.

    #113 3 years ago
    Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

    Thanks for the nice summary chart below maclean you can add Dialed-In under Lawlor.

    good point, Jeff. If Dialed-In was released before the original "popularity" poll was taken 2 months ago, I'm sure Lawlor's 17% could be up around 20% like Borg & Ritchie, or possibly higher.

    DI looks like it will be a game changer.

    #114 3 years ago

    And let's not forget how many people were slamming Dialed In sight unseen when they weren't digging the initial theme pitch. Nothing to do with Pat, but there's no denying his perceived popularity would have taken a hit around this place if this question had been asked *then*.

    #115 3 years ago
    Quoted from MacLean:

    good point, Jeff. If Dialed-In was released before the original "popularity" poll was taken 2 months ago, I'm sure Lawlor's 17% could be up around 20% like Borg & Ritchie, or possibly higher.
    DI looks like it will be a game changer.

    Game changer?

    I will admit I'm not a huge Lawlor fan...Whirlwind, Banzi Run and TAF are as good as he gets for me and I have no plans to own any of those (but I do enjoy them). DI does even less for me...not even on my radar. Yes, I'd love to play one...but not own one. I find Borg and Ritchie games to be way more engaging (for me).

    #116 3 years ago
    Quoted from Astropin:

    Game changer?
    I will admit I'm not a huge Lawlor fan...Whirlwind, Banzi Run and TAF are as good as he gets for me and I have no plans to own any of those (but I do enjoy them). DI does even less for me...not even on my radar. Yes, I'd love to play one...but not own one. I find Borg and Ritchie games to be way more engaging (for me).

    When Funhouse came out it turned the then vanilla pinball landscape on it's head (pun?), it was revolutionary. I never even played pinball till I saw Rudy. Lawlor's strength is in his mechanical designs followed by expert shot-smithing (If I may coin a word). Forget the greats such as TAF and TZ. Look at ES, WW, such unique shots, look at RBION and then Monopoly. Yes Monopoly is weak, mostly due to the code but the pf design is pure genius. The RR shot, the scoop behind the pops, the target at the end of the left ramp. Now look at Trudeau and Oursler, some good designs, but there is always something off....the ramp is little to the left or right, the scoop in the wrong place, the flipper gaps etc....this is what I'm talking about when I say Shot-smithing.

    #117 3 years ago

    I enjoy more of Borg's pins than SR's. However, if you add Lawlor to the equation I might have to go with him--outstanding run of designs, each new game building on the design of the last one.

    #118 3 years ago

    I'm pretty even on those 2 with what pins are in my collection but I must say I was able to hang out a bit and talk to Borg this weekend at Cincy tourney and he sure seems like a super nice guy . I enjoy both of their styles...I say tie!

    #119 3 years ago

    Borg........

    #120 3 years ago
    Quoted from Astropin:

    Game changer?

    DI definitely could be called a game changer based on the Bluetooth connectivity. If it's done properly, of course. Lawlor could come out of this a legend if it's successful.

    #121 3 years ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    When Funhouse came out it turned the then vanilla pinball landscape on it's head (pun?), it was revolutionary. I never even played pinball till I saw Rudy.

    Never really cared for Funhouse...and a buddy of mine had one for awhile. He ended up moving it on also. I understand a lot of peope love it... I'm just not one of them.

    #122 3 years ago

    If we go by what we own.. Borg. 3 Borg, 2 Ritchie, 1 Lawler.

    Plus the fact that TWDPREM/LE is my all time favourite game ever made.

    #123 3 years ago

    Games I own..
    PL.. TAF,TZ,SC,NGG,WW,FG. 6 games
    SR.. AC/DC,ST,HS2,SM,STtNG. 5 games
    JB.. MTLE,IM,WD,GnR,Tron. 5 Games

    Looks like PL for the win, for now

    #124 3 years ago
    Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

    Games I own..
    PL.. TAF,TZ,SC,NGG,WW,FG. 6 games
    SR.. AC/DC,ST,HS2,SM,STtNG. 5 games
    JB.. MTLE,IM,WD,GnR,Tron. 5 Games
    Looks like PL for the win, for now

    That Borg list there is fantastic!

    #125 3 years ago

    How can we go on debating the designers that brought us Twister and No Fear-Dangerous Sports?

    The 90s wouldn't have been the same without either of these gems.

    #126 3 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    The 90s wouldn't have been the same without either of these gems.

    Haha! Anyone that designed Frankenstein can never be on a "best of" list; so goddamn bad.

    #127 3 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Haha! Anyone that designed Frankenstein can never be on a "best of" list; so goddamn bad.

    I'd love to find one of these and give it a try, as (other than the lame callouts) the Pinball Arcade version is sorta fun.

    #128 3 years ago
    Quoted from Billy16:

    I'd love to find one of these and give it a try, as (other than the lame callouts) the Pinball Arcade version is sorta fun.

    I'm sure if I put some time I could think of a machine with a worse layout, but one doesn't come to me easy let's put it that way.

    #129 3 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Haha! Anyone that designed Frankenstein can never be on a "best of" list; so goddamn bad.

    Coincidentally, my buddy just picked up a Frankenstein last week. I've not been to his place yet to play it as he's out of town, however, I just talked to him this morning & he says it's one of best playing pins he's ever owned. Just curious, why do hate it so much?

    #130 3 years ago
    Quoted from MacLean:

    he says it's one of best playing pins he's ever owned.

    He must have owned a lot of 90s Gotleibs in the past

    It's the total package. Shit art, layout, audio, layout, Franekstein toy is just a train wreck, boring, layout; uff it's juts so rough. It's like a worse, much worse, version of TFTC without all the fun and cool animations & audio.

    #131 3 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    He must have owned a lot of 90s Gotleibs in the past
    It's the total package. Shit art, layout, audio, layout, Franekstein toy is just a train wreck, boring, layout; uff it's juts so rough. It's like a worse, much worse, version of TFTC without all the fun and cool animations & audio.

    It's not great...but it's still better than Shaq!

    #132 3 years ago
    Quoted from Astropin:

    It's not great...but it's still better than Shaq!

    Uff nice recall on that one.

    #133 3 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Uff nice recall on that one.

    Never played one but i hear bugs bunny pin is pretty awesome also!

    #134 3 years ago
    Quoted from Brazy:

    Never played one but i hear bugs bunny pin is pretty awesome also!

    Yeah I haven't either. Python & Trudaue...strange mix there

    #135 3 years ago

    Lets get this topic rolling again and look at it this way. Top 3 pins from each designer. Which would you rather have:

    Borg:
    Metallica
    TWD
    TRON

    Ritchie:
    AC/DC
    STLE
    SM (original or vault)

    ...man that's a tough choice. 5 of those are Lyman programmed. I'd still go with the Ritchie pack of 3.

    #136 3 years ago

    If you're counting those are their top pins then Borg easy

    #137 3 years ago
    Quoted from Eskaybee:

    Lets get this topic rolling again and look at it this way. Top 3 pins from each designer. Which would you rather have:
    Borg:
    Metallica
    TWD
    TRON
    Ritchie:
    AC/DC
    STLE
    SM (original or vault)
    ...man that's a tough choice. 5 of those are Lyman programmed. I'd still go with the Ritchie pack of 3.

    That list? Borg and it isn't close!

    #138 3 years ago
    Quoted from Eskaybee:

    Borg: Metallica TWD TRON
    I'd still go with the Ritchie pack of 3.

    Borg all the way.
    At our bi-weekly Friday pin nights at my buddies place, he currently has 4 Borg's (ASLE, MET premium, TWDLE, GnR) & 2 Ritchie's (STLE, GoTLE)
    ... without a doubt, IMHO, the Borg pins blow the 2 Ritchie pins out of the water! I own 2 Borg's, AS pro & MET premium & they aren't going anywhere ... ever!

    Borg is undeniably the f'en design pin king!

    #139 3 years ago
    Quoted from MacLean:

    Borg is undeniably the f'en design pin king!

    Well...that's a bit much.

    EDIT: I don;t know how many people...well normal people...would consider STLE a top 3 SR TABLE. (and above STNG?)

    #140 3 years ago

    Those are great games, but what about my love bitch IM? I think it might muscle in there and knock one of those out. The million dollar question is which one, because all four are outstanding games? So, in light of decision stalemate, it should be the top 4 of each designer compared, to avoid conflict, of course. Borg's list would be set, so would we add STTNG to Richie's column? It would still be a tough decision, regardless.

    #141 3 years ago
    Quoted from Pimp77:

    That list? Borg and it isn't close!

    Guess I'm in the minority. AC/DC is one of the best games ever made. Metallica is so overrated and such a grind fest it turns to a snooze fest. Fun to play once in awhile cause it's Metallica but easily Lyman's worst coded game of the 5 mentioned.

    TWD is probably the best pin of the 6 but that's cause of code, not game design. STLE has the best shot in all of pinball (warp ramp) with an amazing sound integrated theme package surrounding it. Tron is amazing and a fun fest pin. And if it weren't for SM vault to pull the reigns of the original out of the gutter and make it feel like a real Spider-Man pin, i could almost agree its Borg and not close. So yea, all in all, it's very close IMO. Swap Metallica out for one Ritchie machine and that would be a dream 3-pin lineup for HUO.

    Quoted from taz:

    Those are great games, but what about my love bitch IM? I think it might muscle in there and knock one of those out. The million dollar question is which one, because all four are outstanding games? So, in light of decision stalemate, it should be the top 4 of each designer compared, to avoid conflict, of course. Borg's list would be set, so would we add STTNG to Richie's column? It would still be a tough decision, regardless.

    If you get to strong arm IM into that list, then I get to squeeze GOT PRO in which has the best ruleset of any of the pins mentioned

    #142 3 years ago
    Quoted from Eskaybee:

    Guess I'm in the minority. AC/DC is one of the best games ever made. Metallica is so overrated and such a grind fest it turns to a snooze fest. Fun to play once in awhile cause it's Metallica but easily Lyman's worst coded game of the 5 mentioned.
    TWD is probably the best pin of the 6 but that's cause of code, not game design. STLE has the best shot in all of pinball (warp ramp) with an amazing sound integrated theme package surrounding it. Tron is amazing and a fun fest pin. And if it weren't for SM vault to pull the reigns of the original out of the gutter and make it feel like a real Spider-Man pin, i could almost agree its Borg and not close. So yea, all in all, it's very close IMO. Swap Metallica out for one Ritchie machine and that would be a dream 3-pin lineup for HUO.

    If you get to strong arm IM into that list, then I get to squeeze GOT PRO in which has the best ruleset of any of the pins mentioned

    For me the Ritchie games listed are pretty damn vanilla. Talk about code saving the games! AC/DC has like 5 shots total in a boring fan layout. It's probably the most overrated game of all time. Code saves it from being totally horrendous. ST is ok. Better than AC/DC, but still eh. Code has some issues with grind. SM is Ritchie's gem (top 3 game), but again he can thank Lyman.

    Borg's games? Yeah, MET can be a grind but it's got some cool toys and interesting code. It's a Ritchiesque fan though. Tron and TWD have interesting, different, and fun layouts. TWD in particular is a masterpiece. Tron rules are meh, but the game shoots and looks great.

    #143 3 years ago

    I love the very approachable yet a-bit-unique layout of TWD, the great theme integration in PF design and code (outside of the audio which has been made whole by the community and even better in many regards with all the options), as well as the epic programming. Add to that killer combo a unique as well as rare-adult-oriented theme, and it's my fave.

    There are so many different metrics to use when talking about best, not to mention then adding a kaleidoscope of personal preferences. SR and Borg each have their own vibe and both have made some great pins. Cheers on all the great choices

    #144 3 years ago

    My favorite pin of all time is IM, so just for this one it's Borg for me but i just find Ritchie games cooler and more fun to play than Borg games especially HS2 STTNG and T2. I prefer to play this games more than Tron Met TWD and i really hate TFTC.

    #145 3 years ago
    Quoted from taz:

    Those are great games, but what about my love bitch IM? I think it might muscle in there and knock one of those out. The million dollar question is which one, because all four are outstanding games? So, in light of decision stalemate, it should be the top 4 of each designer compared, to avoid conflict, of course. Borg's list would be set, so would we add STTNG to Richie's column? It would still be a tough decision, regardless.

    Those 4 (Borg) I own plus those three SR and did own STTNG.

    I prefer the Borg quartet.

    #146 3 years ago
    Quoted from Pimp77:

    TWD in particular is a masterpiece.

    .......and then there is the rest of them. A distant 2nd to TWD

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