I love Both of them, but curse them both for the same design below. Every Borg game in the past decade has the 3 in-lanes and Ritchie always uses 2. Neither take radical risks and both make fair to great games.

Ritchie was my favorite, but I believe Borg will be making games for another two decades.

They are both great and I think we all wish they would switch it up one of these times.

TWD

Nice abstraction. If you inferred he was talking about pinball fans in general from him mentioning Pinside, then I think the problem is yours, not his. As far as Pinsiders "calling it as they see it", lol. If you truly believe that some of the obnoxious stuff that gets posted here is just expressing "truth" you and I have different definitions of the word.

At the end of the day, people can spout whatever opinions they want, however they want. Don't see how they can get all butt hurt though when someone does the same thing about them.

Hands down, Christian Marche (I love the pointy people).
At PAGG I spent more time playing the EMs than standing in line to play the latest and greatest.

Um... he's an artist, not a designer.

Really??? Pats games recycle as much or more than Borg's by a mile. The majority of Pat's games have all been variations of each other. The one time he really tried a different layout in the last 20 years was Nascar - which didn't really work out all that well. I guess he didn't have a shot through the pops on Family Guy.

I love Pat's games and have 4 of them currently, but they are all extremely similar in layout. There's only so much room on a playfield, and the good designs tend to get re-used, and repeated by the same designers. It's just how it is. Borg is on a roll right now IMO, and re-using the combination of the NBA ball launch and IJ Ark in Aerosmith was an awesome move - and very different. Neither of those previous implementations panned out, but in AS it's great! It's actually a testament to his skill as a designer to re-use things that didn't work out previously, for the win. That actually IS taking a chance.

Well, no, you're totally wrong. Are you really going to say that Banzai Run, Whirlwind, Twilight Zone, NASCAR, Family Guy, Ripley's Believe it or Not, Roadshow, Funhouse, Safe Cracker, and his other games are more similar to one another than Metallica, Aerosmith, KISS, X-MEN, The Walking Dead, Avatar, and Iron Man? Seriously. Like, for real?

Never mind the fact that Borg basically ripped off Lawlor's Funhouse and Addams Family designs at one point.

Look, Borg has a formula (target in the upper half with a magnet, bash toy with a magnet, really iffy pop bumper exits) that he just creates variations on. He makes fun games, but they're hardly an example of new ideas. To claim that Lawlor creates less varied layouts is just nutty and totally incorrect.

Edit: To be clear though, I think Borg is on a great run at Stern. Tron, Iron Man, The Walking Dead, and Metallica are all legit amazing pinball machine. X-Men is pretty solid as well. Still trying to figure out what I think of Aerosmith, but I enjoy it.

If I got to pick one guy to design a dream theme, it would be John Trudeau for me.

Yes but obviously most of Borg's recycling is recycling PL's recyclings.

Williams Years - Ritchie has the upper hand, no question
Stern (Recent) Years - I'd say it's about close to even if Borg has a slight upper hand. AC DC and Star Trek are fantastic games.

I'll take whichever one is working with Lyman Really, any of Stern's designers are more than capable of making an exceptional game. I'm actually most excited to see what Keith Elwin has in store for us with his first Stern pin!

Hmmm... maybe I should change my initial comment. Which one holds out for more complete code?

If it is his Archer layout with GOTG as a theme, that is going to give SW a serious run for its money!

You cant compare Borg with a legend like Ritchie. His list is designs starts from the 70s with so many great pins.

Ritchie vs Lawlor, now thats a tricky one

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I feel like Ritchie's best when doing original designs, seems like he can really pull it all together with full control and not hindered by the requirements of a license (i.e, Firepower, Black Knight, High Speed, etc.), with the noteable exception of STTNG.

Borg is best when partnered with Lyman.

On the other hand, Lawlor's licensed themes are his best games by far. His original themes are creative but they always end up too cheesy for my taste, with poor callouts and such.

You cant just say who is better based of layout designs, what about innovations through their designs? Steve has a lot on innovation and introduced a lot of new features into pinball, he has a lot of "firsts" in his design résumé.

I still think it would be awesome to have them design a game together that could be insanely good.

I'm not quite sure how to interpret this. Can you explain?

Glad its not just me that was puzzled

richie is better. borg made walking dead, it's full of cheap drains. star trek, game of thrones are much better. faster, exciting.

Yes - definitely Borg has MORE variety for sure.
Let's look at Pat Lawlor: Earthshaker -> Whirlwind -> Funhouse -> Addams Family -> Twilight Zone -> Roadshow -> No Good Gofers -> Monopoly -> Roller Coaster Tycoon -> Ripleys : *** All very similar ***

All of these are very similar and have the standard "Lawlor Layout" - It's easy to spot the same primary design. As I already mentioned, NASCAR and Family Guy are a little different. I'm not going to count Safe Cracker as it's a pint-sized game, and Banzai Run was pre-DMD.

For Borg, he has:
- Tales from the Crypt
- Jurassic Park
- Guns n' Roses
- Apollo 13
- Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
- Last Action Hero
- Lost in Space
- Harley Davidson
- Sharkey's Shootout
- High Roller Casino
- Austin Powers
- Big Buck Hunter
- NBA
- Iron Man
- Tron
- Indiana Jones
- X-Men
- Avatar
- The Walking Dead
- KISS
- Aerosmith

There is MUCH more variety of layouts in the above list than in Pat's DMD games.
Example: Tron - TWD - AS - Metallica - HRC - NBA - Big Buck Hunter - TftC - Sharkeys Shootout - MSF are all completely different from each other. Which is NOT the case with the above list of Pat Lawlors. It's so easy to spot a Pat Lawlor layout - except for TSPP which will fool you since it wasn't actually from Pat LOL.

or jurassic park which is a rip off of whirlwind/addams family etc

everyone borrows from everyone else. there is only so much real estate

Very true

I tried to do Borg a favor and not mention his dogs or his rip offs. Mailed in designs shouldn't really be brought up here. But since you want to, let's point out that Tron is a rip off, Jurassic Park is a rip off, Iron Man is an update to Austin Powers, X-Men/TWD/Avatar/Metallica/AS/KISS/IJ all share the Borg pattern (big toy or bash object in the lower half, magnet toy in the upper half, ramps/orbits), NBA is a rip off, and a lot of his more unique designs have proven to be dogs.

Here's where Borg's strength lies. He knows what is working for him, and he's sticking to it. Steve Ritchie has done the same since coming back to Stern. He's letting the code be the difference maker in his designs, but more and more his designs are becoming alike. He seems to work from a couple of different templates as a starting point and then tweaks and varies a bit. I think aside from AC/DC and Spider-Man, Borg is putting out the best modern Stern games right now, so I'm not saying he's a hack or a bad designer. I think it's only fair to recognize that he's hardly the example of varied layouts.

If you want unique at Stern today, go to Trudeau. His designs are wildly different across all eras.

Go back and re-read the first few pages of the Star Wars thread. Everyone was giving their honest first impressions. They were calling it like they saw it based on some shitty low res images. I don't think they were lying about their opinions of what they were seeing/feeling about those initial pics. So yes, when it comes to reveals Pinside doesn't hold any punches. They tell it like it is and it paid off in regards to the Hobbit. Jack didn't call pinside a disease because some of pinside hated the art. He took that info and had the art completely redesigned based on the honest truthful feedback people were giving right here on pinside.

So maybe we are just talking about two different things. I'm talking about Pinside calling it as they see it in relation to the Star Wars thread and similar reveals like it. You seem to be applying that comment to everything Pinside. If I rephrased it to say "Pinsiders call it like they see it in reveal threads" would you still "lol" at that comment?

Back on topic. I think both designers kick ass and have some great games. Take code out of the picture and they are pretty darn equal in terms of great shooting playfields. I give a slight edge to Borg right now because IMO Star Trek=Spiderman, and ACDC=Terminator 2 (again, taking code out of the picture)

I think the title the OP should have used is "Borg or Ritchie - Who's Better?" Many other choices for the "best".

What's your opinion on Aerosmith=KISS, IM=AP, XM=TRON?

Borg is definitely my favourite at the moment - Metallica, X-Men, Tron and Aerosmith are games where I've thoroughly enjoyed his layouts, but Ritchie will always be the king of flow and make the faster games...I'm happy we have a variety of designers making very different games right now

Alright, I agree, Pinsiders call it like they see it. Many generally just do it in a totally classless way with little to no thought of the people behind the work. My "lol" was that in my experience with the expression "calling it as I see it" is used as an excuse to be offensive. From page 1:

How is that a constructive piece of criticism? Should Steve or anyone read that and be like "thanks Pinside!!!!!!!". Anyway, we could argue about this all day (and have). If the fact that Steve taking a shot at Pinside makes you think less of him as a designer, thats your business. I just think it is a stupid reason with no basis other than people are being overly sensitive. Just calling as I see it.

Fair enough. Guess I haven't played Aerosmith or Austin Powers to make those comparisons. But love the shots on KISS and IM.

Borg is awesome.
Ritchie is awesome.

Between them, they have designed some amazing games. I like them both. They both play to their strengths. In the end they are great designers.

(I will say that Steve tends to sit on his laurels a bit more and recycles geometry, but it works for him, and it works for me).

Borg is the best today

Ritchie was the best yesterday. And still pretty damn good but lacking creativity.

Also love Trudeau when he goes GB route.

This thread is hillarious!

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Between these two? Borg, and it isn't close. SR puts out the same damn game over and over with little tweaks. Borg mixes it up and innovates. Nordman is the best IMO though.

If i have to pick between these two designers i would say Borg. I really enjoy both of their games but i tire of SR games a lot faster.

'Difficult'? Try IMPOSSIBLE. And yes I *am* speaking for myself, thank you.

Borg.

Gomez barely beat JPop..... lmao

Borg, but I really REALLY don't like Steve Ritchie pins.

Just sayin...

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If we are speaking strictly Stern, going back to early 2000s

Ritchie: T3, Elvis, WPT, SM, AC/DC, ST, GOT

Borg: AP, IJ4, IM, BBH, Avatar, TRON, XMEN, MET, TWD, Kiss, AS

Ritchie might tweak play around with his own designs more, but Borg is great at tweaking and playing around with others designs. Either way the both make killer games and the best part of it, they both have a completely different feel and style of play, but they both copy, recycle, tweak past designs. Only so much real estate under the glass, although Pat Lawlor seems to be a god damn magician when it comes to layout design.

I have 3 SR (SM, AcDc pre and STLE) and four JB (Tron, IM, Met pro and TWD pro) and think JB is better.

They are both awesome in their own rights, Borg has shined while at Stern though as he was there during the hard times and made some kick ass games, he is easily the king of less is more - without that magic we may never have got IM or TRON.

Im not surprised. Alot of guys like his style with lots of stuff on playfields it seems, plus with the DI bandwagon drumming along so strong right now with its release all the potential owners and fans voices are louder right now.

To me personally the coder is more important then the designer but i prefer Richie over Borg if i have to pick.