BOPP with flipper problem-Update- Update #2

This has been happening since I purchased the pin. It has been intermittent, but it seems to be happening a lot more often than not.
I will start a game, the ball will be doing it's thing, suddenly the flippers will be dead. There is not one thing that happens each time to attribute this to. I thought it was from the credit knocker, it seemed to be happening when that goes off. So I adjusted the limit for a free game, setting it higher, and the flippers still go dead. I shut the pin off, switch it back on, and the flippers are fine. It seems to happen when multiple things are occurring simultaneously, which is a pain, because that's pinball. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.
Thank you.

#2 11 years ago

FRX

Frax

Pinside member

Conyers, GA

12y 103K 16,662 2 9

Check all the wires at the coil lugs, EOS switches, and flipper switches.

May not help much...it's both flippers going completely dead at the same time, at random?

*edit* Maybe the fuse or fuse holder for the flipper voltage is going out. That could be causing intermittent failure for BOTH flippers.

#3 11 years ago

RUS

hfdpro

Inactive member

Frax,
Thanks for the reply. I will re-check all the wires. It is both flippers at the same time, randomly.
I will also check the fuse and holder.

#4 11 years ago

RUS

hfdpro

Inactive member

Checked all of the above, seem fine. I did however notice what is best described as a "clicking" noise from the solenoid driver/voltage regulator module. The noise coincided with the outage to the flippers. Any ideas?

#5 11 years ago

FRX

Frax

Pinside member

Conyers, GA

12y 103K 16,662 2 9

Sounds like you're describing a relay... could be either the game telling the relay to turn on when it shouldn't, or the relay itself is defective.

Unfortunately this is a bit outside my knowledge level as to how to proceed at this point. Maybe someone smarter will chime in.

#6 11 years ago

RUS

hfdpro

Inactive member

Bump.
Still having this same problem. Just played 2 games, no problems, third game started fine then the flippers went dead. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks.

#7 11 years ago

XXX

Craigmack

Pinside member

Cracked solder joints on the flipper relay on the solenoid driver board, or the relay is dying. Easy fix either way.

#8 11 years ago

???

Tommi_Gunn

Inactive member

11y 0 1,634

+1 on flipper relay also check:

housing and cracked solder for header pins on:
J2 pins 1 & 2 - incoming to flipper relay
J1 pins 8 & 9 - out going from flipper relay
J109 pins 5 & 7
J110 pin 1,4,6,7

#9 11 years ago

RUS

hfdpro

Inactive member

Thanks Craigmack. I'm a total noob, so here are some pics of the board I pulled. Not sure where the solder joints for the flipper relay are.
Thanks for the help.

#10 11 years ago

RUS

hfdpro

Inactive member

Thanks Craigmack. I'm a total noob, so here are some pics of the board I pulled. Not sure where the solder joints for the flipper relay are.
Thanks for the help.

photo-1.JPG photo-2.JPG photo-3.JPG

#11 11 years ago

RUS

hfdpro

Inactive member

Relay and solder joints for relay?

photo-4.JPG photo-5.JPG

#12 11 years ago

XXX

Craigmack

Pinside member

Yes you have identified the correct part. Those solder joints look ok from the image but sometimes they are very hard to see without magnification. I would go ahead and resolder them. Then using the solenoid test with the board reinstalled in the game. Test this relay. It should click on and off. If it doesn't or you can see that it is mechanically having a tough time, it will be time to replace it. There are some IC's that could be causing an issue as well, but lets start with the easy stuff first.

#13 11 years ago

AJM

Venom_249

Pinside member

12y 56,700 314 68

Had a relay that went bad on a Pinbot under the playfield once, would only power the flasher side, not the eject holes, a good thump on top would suffice to make it switch over from A to C side until the new one arrived. guess something was broke on the inside. jump started it by a moment of frustration......

#14 11 years ago

RUS

hfdpro

Inactive member

18th test on the solenoid test-K1 relay- was not firing. Tapped the relay, it fired. Any wiki's on re-soldering these come to mind or do I just heat up the joints and apply a small bit of solder?

Thanks.

#15 11 years ago

XXX

Craigmack

Pinside member

http://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=LY2-0-DC48

Yes heat up the joint and apply solder to "reflow". If that fixes it great, I am thinking you will need a new relay if tapping it made it snap back to action.

I recommend purchasing it from Ed at Great Plains Electronics.

#16 11 years ago

RUS

hfdpro

Inactive member

Thanks, will do the re-solder first of course and post my results. Thanks for all your help.

#17 11 years ago

RUS

hfdpro

Inactive member

The re-solder did not help. Off to order a new relay.

#18 11 years ago

RUS

hfdpro

Inactive member

Got the relay in today. De-soldered and replaced with the new relay. Pic included.
Powered up, sadly, same condition exists. Flippers will work, then suddenly in the middle of a game, both are dead. Any ideas?
Thanks

photo-23.JPG

#19 11 years ago

TAB

terryb

Inactive member

Banning, CA

11y 90,150 4,795 14

Do the relay test again and see if it works or you have the same problem. It's not uncommon to have two different problems in a circuit. Hard to tell from the picture, but the second pin from the top in the right column looks like a cold solder joint. Test all your solder joints with a DMM.

OP
Quoted from hfdpro:
18th test on the solenoid test-K1 relay- was not firing. Tapped the relay, it fired.

#20 11 years ago

XXX

Craigmack

Pinside member

Ok... Have you rebuilt the connectors for the switch inputs on the MPU and the connectors going to the SDB?

If you have, try swapping the 6821 PIA IC's on the MPU and see if the problem goes away. The lower PIA on the MPU while looking at it installed in the game controls the relay via the 74154 and the 3081 on the SDB. You have not mentioned having any other issues with the solenoids, so I am thinking it is a failing output of the PIA. If you switch the PIA's and the problem goes away then you can buy a new PIA and call it good.

Other questions:
Did your MPU have any acid damage? Does your MPU have the original sockets in place for the PIA IC's? If so the socket may also be bad.

#21 11 years ago

RUS

hfdpro

Inactive member

Quoted from terryb:
Do the relay test again and see if it works or you have the same problem. It's not uncommon to have two different problems in a circuit. Hard to tell from the picture, but the second pin from the top in the right column looks like a cold solder joint. Test all your solder joints with a DMM.

Solder joints tested OK.

Quoted from Craigmack:
Ok... Have you rebuilt the connectors for the switch inputs on the MPU and the connectors going to the SDB?
If you have, try swapping the 6821 PIA IC's on the MPU and see if the problem goes away. The lower PIA on the MPU while looking at it installed in the game controls the relay via the 74154 and the 3081 on the SDB. You have not mentioned having any other issues with the solenoids, so I am thinking it is a failing output of the PIA. If you switch the PIA's and the problem goes away then you can buy a new PIA and call it good.
Other questions:
Did your MPU have any acid damage? Does your MPU have the original sockets in place for the PIA IC's? If so the socket may also be bad.

I do not have any other issues, just the flippers. Both at the same time, intermittent. I took the PIA out, "plugged" it back in, and now it is working fine. Played 3 complete games. Corrosion, or maybe they were not seated properly? For now all seems good. If it occurs again, I will remove the MPU to check for corrosion on the back, the front is fine, and order a new 6821 PIA?
Thanks for all the help.

#22 11 years ago

RUS

hfdpro

Inactive member

After playing some more games last night, I could not be happier. Of course, that was short lived. I powered it on this morning, trying not to play my LOTR too much until I get the plastic protectors, and now I have about 6 things out. The flippers are fine, but everything from the ball launch, to the up-post between the flippers, to the drop targets are not working. The led on the mpu is only blinking 4 times. This is the original mpu, so I ordered an ultimate mpu from Marco's. Should solve my problems.

#23 11 years ago

RUS

hfdpro

Inactive member