(Topic ID: 163782)

BoP: Father and Son's First Restoration [COMPLETE]

By jsa

7 years ago


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  • 52 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by MajorHavoc
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#72 7 years ago
Quoted from jsa:

I'm terrible at soldering!

Get a Hakko soldering station. I should've done this years ago.

Great thread.

1 week later
#89 7 years ago
Quoted from jsa:

All good advice. I'll experiment with my 1.7mm nozzle and see what works and what doesn't. I'll post my results here.
Meanwhile, completed the backbox with 120 and 220 grit:

The only things we haven't done is "break" or bevel the edges and make/install new chocks. Anyone have any feedback on the beveling? The backbox and cabinet did not have beveled edges on all the edges. It had that on the bottom of the backbox and maybe the back edges, but most of the edges came to a point. I understand there is value in the beveling for installing the decal art, but what exactly? The beveled edges would need to be painted the color of the art (purple) and match pretty perfectly to not stand out.

My understanding is that the beveled edges make it easier to trim the decals. You just need to run a xacto blade at a 45 degree angle.

The only decal job I did was without them because I feared I wouldn't get a nice regular bevel. It turned out trimming the edge was still super easy with a long straight metal ruler.

Regardless, you still need to paint the edge a color that matches the decal edge as the decal does not go all the way to the edge of the cabinet. Maybe you have 1/16th of an inch but it's enough to see the color that's underneath.

2 weeks later
#115 7 years ago
Quoted from jsa:

The HVLP gun sprays a super consistent coat, but fair warning, it's also SUPER THIN. This latex paint covers really well so it's hard to tell how thin it is. I hit the black from yesterday with 220/320 before spraying the final coat, and the white primer was quick to show through in places. You can't spray thicker because you'll get orange peel, so you may need multiple coats, your milage may vary. I think I'm good with two coats.

I am no paint expert, but I use enamel black paint. I find it easier to sand than latex paint.

#119 7 years ago

Paint too thick and/or two much of it?

Where is it?

#121 7 years ago
Quoted from jsa:

My guess is that my sprayer was too close to the surface. It's on the very back of the main cabinet.

I would start by gently dry sanding an small area with 400 grit and see.

#129 7 years ago
Quoted from jsa:

Do you folks typically paint the sides where the decals go?

Yes. Nice paint job!

#133 7 years ago

Looks like you've got a bit of orange peel there as well. You're not thinning your paint at all?

#135 7 years ago

I have used the Rustoleum spray cans quite extensively for my TZ cab and other stuff. I like them a lot except that I find the solvent so hot that unless you wait long enough between two coats, you end up dissolving the previous coat. It's happened to me multiple times, as recently as Sunday, painting wood rails. The other problem is that the geometry of the spray pattern isn't as wide and adjustable as with a gun.

As far as the clear goes, I'm pretty sure it's a lot easier to apply than paint. Back to the rails I had problems with, I ended up sanding the painted problematic areas and applying the oil based clear gloss over it. The rails came out great with a beautiful gloss. The clear is almost as fluid as water, it isn't that hot so it plays nicely with the rustoleum even when it hasn't fully cured, and it dries relatively fast. If you wait a few days after you have screened, you should be able to apply some semi-gloss clear without a problem.

For the glue, try alcohol.

#138 7 years ago

You should be good to go with that.

#158 7 years ago
Quoted from jsa:

Also, can someone explain to me the science/wisdom around this:

or from another angle:

It seems that after sanding a coat of paint (say, at 320 grit), the entire surface will appear 100% uniform. Then, when I paint a new coat, there will be some areas that look like that. Almost like a naturally occuring steel diamond plate pattern. Is this random? Something left behind in the previous coat? We're at a loss.

What you have here is exactly what I described earlier and still routinely happens to me.

Quoted from lb1:

I have used the Rustoleum spray cans quite extensively for my TZ cab and other stuff. I like them a lot except that I find the solvent so hot that unless you wait long enough between two coats, you end up dissolving the previous coat. It's happened to me multiple times, as recently as Sunday, painting wood rails.

The problem with the spray cans is that the solvent is very hot. Unless you spray light coats, you risk melting the previous coat - unless you wait several days for the paint to cure, with makes for a very time consuming restoration. And it's hard to get a wet uniform coat without spraying quite a bit. Going forward, I'm thinking of either spraying can paint a bit diluted with a HVLP gun or spraying a light first coat just to get the color and using clear to get the finish - base coat / top coat. That's what I did in https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/lotr-refresh/page/2#post-3302312 after having had exactly the same problem you show in your pic.

#159 7 years ago
Quoted from jsa:

You can see some inconsistency with the semi-gloss clear. I'm pretty sure this happened because the pressure out of the can was so high, even at 12", it pushed or blew the previous line of paint aside.

Do you guys recommend we add a coat or two, or sand down (maybe wet sand with high grit) and then a new coat?

For this one, I would do a light sanding, and add two wet coats of clear applied with a foam brush or a spray can, but with the head horizontal. This way you can get a nice wet coat with no run.

#160 7 years ago
Quoted from jsa:

Doing a playfield swap is also new for us, so we're researching good ways to document our teardown.

Some good advice in your other thread. I typically do is what Bryan suggested and many probably do - take detailed pictures or the tear down process in the exact order of the tear down. For areas where there can be some ambiguity on say, the size of a spacer or a screw, I take extra pics showing a close up of the part.

In addition, I often go to HEP Gallery for some high-quality larger pics.

image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg

image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg

#162 7 years ago
Quoted from jsa:

My concern here with a rattle can is that we'll end up with the same effect (inconsistent gloss) due to the burning or blowing away the clear as the can makes each traversal across the face. That leads you to using a roller, but with a roller, does it dry flat or is the nap of the roller an issue? I suppose I could do a light sanding (what grit, by the way, do you recommend for this, and any reason to wet sand vs. dry at this stage) and then wait for a few days before spraying, and worse case, sand it again.

With the rails in https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/lotr-refresh/page/2#post-3302312, I had the exact same inconsistent gloss problem when spraying gloss black paint. This was resolved with the clear applied with a foam brush. The texture of the foam is not an issue because the clear is very fluid. I think the MixWax fast drying clear is more fluid because it contains more solvent. I like foam brush better than roller. Sometimes with the roller I get tiny bubbles.

Wet sand lightly with 400 or 600 grit.

Unless you get a wet coat with the spray, you can get inconsistent gloss.

If you look at https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/lotr-refresh#post-3182125 you can see the melted paint from the hot solvent.
I ended up spraying semi-gloss paint as a mist from 2 feet away to get a egg-shell pearl like texture that has an homogeneous gloss and hides surface defects a bit more. Result in https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/lotr-refresh#post-3187382. I did the exact same for my TZ cabinet (see https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/another-tz-restoration-thread#post-2131726).

#165 7 years ago
Quoted from jsa:

I seem to recall Vid saying that oil-based polyurethane will yellow over time...

Yes, hence, not a good choice for a playfield. Could yellow a bit your cabinet. It wasn't a problem for my black rails. Water base will dull a bit the color. Do you really need to clear your cabinet? A good semi-gloss paint should hold on well. I did https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/another-tz-restoration-thread#post-2265972 with three coats of black semi-gloss enamel and a roller. No clear. The finish is nice enough.

#167 7 years ago
Quoted from jsa:

I agree, no need for clear, the issue was that my HVLP sprayed on latex had inconsistent semi-gloss on the back of the backbox. The purpose of the semi-gloss clear was to even it out. Ironically, it just made it less even, furthering the wisdom that what is on bottom is amplified by coats above it.
Pretty soon we'll be finished with the painting... I can't wait. I'm done with this respirator! We need to psych ourselves up for wet application of decals next.

Folks aren't joking when they say they spend 60+ hours on the cab alone.

The wet decal isn't difficult at all.

Use some Windex and a rubber brayer, not a squeegee. You can press as hard as you need with a brayer. You can't with a squeegee.

Put some paper towels all around to avoid Windex leaking onto the rest of the cabinet.

Start with the head.

The transformer is great to hold the decal in place. Make sure you put plenty of protection though.

Cut right away and close to the edge (1/32")

Use a wood panel to fill in the door area. I have one you can borrow though it isn't hard to make from an old piece of plywood.

#170 7 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

Did you do one side at the time laying the cabinet face up or did you do all sides with the cab standing normal? Would the clear run down? would the brush mark show up for large surface?
I'm tempted to try it with Varathane interior Diamond Finish, it ends up way more cheaper in pint than in spray cans.

These were rails. The clear did not run down but this was a small surface. I probably would do the cabinet standing normal because this clear is thin and you can easily correct the runs. Runs when spraying are a killer but not so much when using a brush and some thin clear.

#171 7 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

No, not a joke. I don't understand how professionally restoring pinball machines can be profitable or how much it must cost to get it professionally redone... Does not even include the cost of all the new parts...

I could not agree more. The talent it takes to do top end restorations relative to the money that's in it makes me respect the top pros all the more.

2 weeks later
#183 7 years ago

Perfection can be the enemy of good. Looks good enough to me, particularly for your first resto.

If I think the sockets are what they are, you can find them at https://www.marcospecialties.com/control/keywordsearch?SEARCH_STRING=24-8818. That's what I used for TZ. No need for a tool. Use a flat screw driver to gently push the wire back in. Verify the connection through the whole circuit afterward with a DMM.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/backbox-plastic-idc-lamp-sockets-extraction

#185 7 years ago

Personally, I tend to OCD over the playfield. That's what you see and experience when you play.

#187 7 years ago

You are better off with the wood. It takes 15 minutes to build using plywood scrap. It helps support the decal particularly when you press on it to get the application fluid (i.e. Windex) out. And you want to press pretty hard if you use the brayer. This is the front decal, the one you see the most. No point cutting corners there.

#189 7 years ago

You can sort of see what I did in https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/another-tz-restoration-thread#post-2110881.

You're welcome to borrow mine though it's probably not worth the round trip to Berkeley.

The fit does not have to be exact but the panel has to be flush. You can easily adjust the depth with washers The wood panel is screwed into a support bar. The support bar is behind and is screwed into some of the existing #6 holes on each side of the opening. Two on each side is enough as you won't push like crazy. To locate the place where you need to drill, screw in some old #6 machine screws and put a small drop of paint on top, then, put the support bar. This will mark the spots. The fit won't be exact but that's fine as you can drill fairly large holes and use some washers. If you have a piece of http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-1-2-in-x-14-Gauge-x-72-in-Zinc-Plated-Slotted-Angle-800517/204225758 lying around it's even better as you'll likely find a position with holes facing each others.

#191 7 years ago
Quoted from dudah:

Why did you spray clear on the ground plate? You need it to make good contact with the ground braid for a solid ground connection. At this point I'd sand down around the holes where the ground screw clips go. Double check resistance/continuity with a multimeter.
As for the light panel, Terry at Pinball Life is 3D printing new ones of these for CFTBL, perhaps if you contact him and send him yours he'll be able to make a reproduction of it?

I thought the same when I saw it but the braid goes behind and it hopefully wasn't cleared.

#200 7 years ago

Brayer, FOR SURE. It acts just the same as the squeegee to get the liquid out. Start from the center and press outward.

Leave at least 1 inch all around. 1/4" seems like very little to play with.

Trimming is easy. Have a long straight edge Don't wait until it's dry. Use a fresh Xacto blade. Trim as close as you can from the edge. Like 1/16". Enough to avoid having the finger catch the decal edge but as little as you can get away with. I never did the 45 deg thing as my edges were not beveled.

Flip the next day. Use soft towels to protect the underside.

Start with the head, not the front. The head is easy. Once you are done with the head do the front then the sides since you have to do the alignment right for the start button and then the rays on the sides.

#205 7 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

What you mean exactly? Wait 1 day before doing the other side. And use towels to catch any dripping water?

The dripping application fluid I catch tapping some paper towels all around the area and small pieces of paper towels in openings.
The soft towels are to avoid scratching the decals. There is not that much fluid anyway.

1 week later
#214 7 years ago
Quoted from jsa:

Dos the fluid really hurt anything? It's just soapy water, right?

Windex has a bit more in it, like a bit of ammonia. The only place I can think of where you don't want (too much of) it is on the cabinet bottom. Not the end of the world, but it could soak in, discolor, raise the particle board grain.

#216 7 years ago

You do the trimming as soon as you are done installing the decal. If you wait, you might pull some paint. I did not have beveled edges and had no problem whatsover. Use a LONG (i.e. 3 feet) straight edge and a fresh Xacto blade. Cut as close to the edge as you can. The decals are very thin. You don't need to press too hard.

#219 7 years ago

Nice one.

PS - Not sure if you are interested, but I just finished my LOTR and I am getting ready to put away the rotisserie. You are welcome to borrow it for as long as you need.

#221 7 years ago
Quoted from jsa:

Thanks for the offer. I guess that since I already have a (crappy) rotisserie, and the way you tear it down/build it up in a swap is linear, I'm not sure I could take advantage of two at once, right?

You're good then. I wasn't sure if you had already built one - maybe you mentioned it in your thread. Some folks use two rotisseries side-by-side to swap, but it isn't a direct swap. Also, properly cleaning and polishing parts means there are some steps between when one part leaves the old playfield and lands on the new one. This said, one the wire harness is off, I could see how (if you don't do extensive part cleaning) you could move many parts directly from the old to the new playfield.

#228 7 years ago
Quoted from jsa:

This is what we're thinking... Removing the playfield in batches and doing a tumbling/cleaning as we go. Also, we're a little nervous because the playfield seems to be missing some parts, posts, etc. It's hard to figure out what the original was supposed to look like since this was Frankensteined over so many years. Any favorite photo locations we can compare against?

I always use HEP's gallery as a reference. Chris' pictures are top notch. Daylight, multiple angles and high resolution. See for instance http://christopherhutchins.com/gallery/album375.

If you can't find what you are looking for ask on the forum. There are probably a few threads on the same game and the OP probably also took tons of pictures.

1 week later
#233 7 years ago

Looks like you went for the beveled edge on the front and used it as a guide to cut?

#235 7 years ago

Not to be a nag, but be careful putting stuff (particularly metal) on the inner cabinet black sides. Black shows scratches like nothing else and it looks like you have a nice smooth finish. I'd put at least some paper towels to protect.

#249 7 years ago
Quoted from eskedran:

I was wondering if I could sneak in and hijack your thread to ask a quick clarifying question...(I have enjoyed every moment of your restoration and appreciate all of your posts...I have learned so much!!!)
I just got a replacement BOP playfield...mmm...so pretty!!! I have been reading thread after thread to be prepared for swapping it in this winter, and have a question that was never directly answered.
I read somewhere that you need to predrill before screwing into the new playfield so that you don't risk damaging the playfield or cracking the clearcoat.
In determining the predrilling size for the bit, do I just go with one a bit under the shaft diameter of the screw, like I would with normal predrilling and go as deep as the screw is...or do I also need to come back and drill just barely through the clearcoat with a larger bit that will allow for the width of the shaft and threads? I don't know if the minor extra width of the screw threads is enough to crack the clear.
I'm just terrified to risk throwing away that much cash on a silly mistake.
Thanks in advance for any advice (and for letting me sneak in my question!!!)

I just went through this for the first time on a cleared LOTR playfield that was immaculate. What I can say is:

- It is actually VERY easy
- Do this before you put anything else on the playfield so you can properly clean up afterward
- You only need this for posts, not screws (I think)
- Use a sharp new bit from a set that has small increments so you can find the size that gives you the exact tight fit
- I'd think the right starting size is based on the size of the hole, not one size under the size of the shaft. Change as needed if it does not work.
- Find a way to protect the playfield around the area you drill. My hand coordination isn't the best and it's happened before to drop something.
- Start by running the bit counterclockwise and just enough to remove the extra clear that's at the top and prevent the post from going in. Doing the very top part should be enough.
- Even if there is a very slight lifting (and there shouldn't be if the clear was properly applied), you can ad a small washer to cover the problem.

#252 7 years ago

I did it from the top. You just need to go through the top layer of clear that prevents the post from going through. If you do it from the bottom, you may remove a tiny bit of addition wood and loosen the fit, and also, you could push out clear and create some separation.

I said you needed to do posts only, but I forgot about the T-nuts that sit on top, if there are any, and possibly the pop bumpers fin screws. It's really easy if you have sharp bits.

#253 7 years ago
Quoted from MustangPaul:

Some good advise from lb1. Also I've heard it's a good thing to drill out the clear under the T nut fittings so they are flush with the playfield and the barbs bite into the wood not the clear, same for the pop bumper nails. Maybe someone who has done this can elaborate. kruzeman recommends this.

Great points. Personally, I did not do the T-nut fitting you describe, and I would not do it myself by fear of removing too much.

I first tried to have the T-nuts teeth go back into the existing holes but I found it hard because each the used T-nut teeth are bent differently. I also bent a few teeth back to their positions when new and it helped some but it's a pain. So in the end, I left the clear, just drilled so the sunk part of the T-nut could go through, and re-used the old T-nuts.

1 week later
#263 7 years ago
Quoted from MustangPaul:

I've used red Plastic Dip and dip them a couple of times, letting the first dip dry for a couple day before doing it again. Or you could use yellow. It works great.

I second this. Dip two or three times.

1 week later
#280 7 years ago

Looking really nice.

By high voltage switch/bracket, are you referring to the switch/plate that pushes against the white switch(es) that is installed inside the cabinet to the left of the door and registers when the door is opened?

#284 7 years ago
Quoted from jsa:

Yes. On my original BoP coin door, the switch is integrated into the door, as in this photo:

There doesn't appear to be any integration options on replacement doors. However, there are holes in the door where you can mount a bracket that triggers a switch (or two) that would be mounted inside the cabinet.

3D printing might well be your best choice here to make a bracket that attaches to the inside left of the cabinet and positions the switch where it needs to be.

#286 7 years ago

This is the type of bracket I have in my TZ but the set up is a bit different. There is a L-shaped bracket soldered to the door that pushed the switch button, which is parallel to the coin door (see http://christopherhutchins.com/gallery/album371/173_G?full=1 though there the bracket only has one hole). You could still use this bracket, which has the correct rectangular hole size, but you would need to mount it differently.

#292 7 years ago

You may want to check with Silver Ball Amusement in Novato, CA. Tony did some repairs on a HS board for me a while back. He may be able to do this for you.

#300 7 years ago
Quoted from jsa:

Just a bump on the question from before... Which is the accurate tag?

Post this question as a separate topic in the restoration sub forum if you don't get a response.

#305 7 years ago

Me, I would either cut corners and live with a messy imperfect hole hidden by the speaker OR try to make the cut using a small round plate and a cutter/xacto knife, OR use the Dremel Moto saw I just purchased to make the cut. Probably option 3.

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