BOP 2.0 Owners Club (Members Only)

(Topic ID: 72381)

BOP 2.0 Owners Club (Members Only)


By awarner

5 years ago



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Topic index (key posts)

5 key posts have been marked in this topic

Post #1756 Product info Posted by rubberducks (2 years ago)

Post #1758 Availability update Posted by Fourbyracer (2 years ago)

Post #1788 Key workaround info Posted by awarner (2 years ago)

Post #1859 How to backup your ssd drive for BOP 2.0 Posted by awarner (2 years ago)


Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#163 4 years ago
Quoted from BadBrad97:

Another week past, another missed deadline, with no communication.....

Don't forget there is another thread running on BOP 2.0

That got an update a couple of days ago by the person receiving the first kit in Europe - they're doing a final "non Dutch Pinball person" check that it install properly by following the supplied instructions etc, before it gets released to everyone else..

Here....

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/just-pre-ordered-bop-20-kit/page/9#post-2028283

3 weeks later
#184 4 years ago

Funny. From work, if I click on the dutchpinball link, it's blocked..

URL Categories: Malicious Sites
Policy: Block URLs With Bad Reputation

Made me smile, I guess I shouldn't be trying to read their forum from the office

1 month later
#412 4 years ago

BOP and Pinmame - the background for those that are interested in the detail....

I’m Mark (Snux) and for a couple of years I’ve been looking after the version of pinmame which has been modified for use with the P-ROC. Some of you may have been reading my F14 custom “Second Sortie” thread as I P-ROC that. For BOP I’ve recently made some additional adjustments to the pinmame code to fix some issues that have been reported by the DP team and their early testers (flippers working during attract mode, lane change and high score entry not working, helmet lamp issues etc). At this time I believe those changes are only in the latest beta release being tested by some folks. I don't work for Dutch Pinball and I'm not paid for the work on pinmame; it's a hobby and I do that for the benefit of anyone using a P-ROC wanting to try and run the original software.

The build is based upon pinmame version 2.4, and it's just pinmame, no visual pinball or whatever front end. Although the pinmame team have made a number of changes to the base pinmame software over the last few years, none of them are of particular interest to the P-ROC as they’re generally related to adding functionality to emulate pinball machines from different manufacturers.

Pinmame in it’s entirety runs to just short of half a million lines of code; mostly it’s written in C with some C++ thrown in for good measure. That’s just the code to emulate the hardware and throw a basic DMD or alphanumeric display on the screen. For general MAME cab kind of usage, Visual Pinball then sits on top of that with all the table physics, modelling, graphics and so on. That’s not in the half million.

To have pinmame interface via the P-ROC to the physical machine comprises “basically” of :
• Having the P-ROC catch switch activations, passing them to the controlling PC and then updating the status of the switch matrix within pinmame.
• Monitoring pinmame lamp states and updating the P-ROC physical lamp states to match.
• Monitoring pinmame coil states and updating the P-ROC physically driven coils to match. So internally within pinmame we see a coil activate, we tell the P-ROC to do the same. We see it deactivate, we get the P-ROC to follow.

The above comprises around 2500 lines of code. So less than a half of one percent of the total code base is related to getting the P-ROC running; the rest is just standard untouched pinmame.

In this process there will be some latency (call it lag if you want). When a switch is closed, the P-ROC sees it, passes it to the controlling PC which then needs to tell pinmame about it. Pinmame will then react with a sound, a score, flashing a lamp or whatever which the new code will see and pass back to the P-ROC. When you run a MAME cab with VP or FP or whatever, you don’t get that latency – your computer *is* the pinball machine (and people sometimes complain about lag even then).

In most situations that latency is either not noticeable or doesn’t really matter. That said, sound emulation in mame generally (and so pinmame too) has always been something that gets noticed as not great. If you use Google and search for “pinmame sound quality” or “mame sound quality” or “visual pinball sound quality” there are pages of threads about it. Emulating all of those ICs and processors in C code and getting something that sounds 100% original just isn’t always possible. It’s also affected by what sound hardware / software your computer has and the settings being used on that, also the CPU performance of the computer comes into play to some extent. It’s actually *far* more CPU intensive running pinmame for emulating the older games on the P-ROC than running the 2.0 versions (or whatever you want to call them).

Do to these very slight differences in timing, it’s also possible that some switches etc that previously worked just fine are now just slightly out of the tolerance that pinmame will accept. As someone else mentioned, that should just be a case of slight adjustments to have them close a little earlier or something. That’s especially the case where one person reports a problem that nobody else is having. Specifcally regarding coil pulse timings, that we do have some control over but it’s behind the scenes and not adjustable from the front end. If (for example) the ball release pulsing too long and letting more than one ball through is something more people see, then we can look to adjust the pulse time. If 2 balls are getting put in the shooter lane, that won’t be related to a pulse time as it’ll be doing 2 pulses to get 2 balls out, so is more likely to be related to a switch that needs some little adjustment.

So, just like with BOP 2.0, report any issues with the 1.0 (pinmame) back to Dutch Pinball. I don’t think the sound is going to improve much – that’s all handled somewhere in 448000 lines of code that we haven’t touched. Nobody has done any work on it in regular mame, so it’s unlikely to get worked on in pinmame. If there are coil pulse times that need adjusting up or down to resolve issues, we can probably do that. As with 2.0, the pinmame build being used here has only been tested on a very few machines, so as it gets rolled out to a bigger audience I expect things will be found in both 1.0 and 2.0 Report it, we’ll build up a picture of what’s going on and we’ll see what we can do.

One last comment – unlike the 2.0 code, pinmame is all open source, so after I’ve done a little tidying up the full code being used within the P-ROC environment (including BOP) will be available for anyone take a copy of.

#415 4 years ago
Quoted from alveolus:

So aside from the sound quality, is there any chance of improving the lag in the sound?

Maybe. I don't actually have a BOP, let alone a BOP 2.0 kit, so testing is a little painful. But please make sure you report it to the DP folks (support@dutchpinball.com) so we get all things centralized rather than scouring pinside threads. They do have a proper bug tracker set up and I'll soon be able to look at anything reported for pinmame.

There might be some options within the setup of the sound hardware/software in that little PC that runs things, or adjusting the sample rate might help. So not definitely, but maybe. Now I sound like a politician

#422 4 years ago
Quoted from TheKorn:

If I (or someone) were to volunteer to generate a sample set, how hard would it be to hack into the pinmame code?

Hmm, from looking at the code, the answer is "hard", I think. The devices used for sound in pinball machines are basically regarded as "fully emulated", so the hooks for the sound samples are just not designed in apart from some old Bally-35 board "bleeps and bloops". The only exception is for sounds linked to specific items of pinball hardware which the sound board in the machine doesn't produce (like pop bumpers, slings etc). But that's really basic and each sound is specifically tied to a piece of hardware. Of course for P-ROC use we disable even those as your physical machine will produce the real noise.

I will go back and take a look though at some mame code (not pinmame, but the original mame that pinmame sprang from back in the late nineties) and see how they hooked it in. In pinmame there is different code specific for every variation of sound/music hardware that pinball ever produced, so hacking the WPC pre-DCS code might not be possible, but I will dig around.

#428 4 years ago

The sound lag fix, if there is one, will depend on what's causing it. If it just that pinmame is requesting the sound too late due to the already described inherent latency, then having samples available or editing sounds or whatever isn't going to help, even if they were possible. You'll just get lagged sounds (but better quality) in the first example, or chopped sounds starting late in the second.

If however it's related to settings within the sound hardware/software on the PC (pinmame isn't a fan of all those audio "enhancements" like bass boost and things like that, especially if they're done in software), or if by dropping the sample rate a little we can get pinmame to kick the sound off sooner, then we might have an option. I'll look into these options for sure once I start to get feedback (via DP) on anything else that gets reported too. I'll do my best to improve it if I can; not just because it makes BOP 1.0 from DP nicer but it'll benefit other P-ROC Pinmame users too.

As for the functionality and scope of 2.0, I have no inside information on that whatsoever as I'm not involved; all I know is that Koen is actively working on it.

#429 4 years ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

Edit 2: don't think I can open the rom in pinball browser since it's pre dmd

I don't think Pinball Browser allows any editing of WPC at the moment, it's just Stern as far as I can see, although it'll read WPC DMD.

Also bear in mind that I don't think (here I go, uneducated opinion coming up) DP would be allowed to distribute a modified ROM image. They've got the all clear for standard L7 which is what they're shipping, that's it.

So I'll back off for a bit now and let folks that still want to play the original software kick the tyres on the pinmame version that has been shipped (knowing that there is a beta out there with some folks with some fixes in) and see what gets reported. I'll keep an eye on here too but will try to hold off responding to everything. If it's related to 2.0 I can't help anyway

#454 4 years ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

I was able to improve the sound quality in 1.0 by turning down the windows volume. pinmame at the default 50% is overdriving the amp. I dropped it to 25% and turned up the amp and it sounds much better

Quoted from Cheddar:

of course now 2.0 is too quiet even with the amp cranked. I'll verify this still occurs in the beta and then report it

Interesting. If you have things back as they were, what effect do the Vol +/- button inside the coin door have. Quality still not good, but just quieter? There is also an option to control overall pinmame volume which can be used on its command line; I just checked and its default is cranked up as high as it'll go. I'm wondering if dropping that down some and dropping the sample rate down (BOP, being pre-DCS, has the same sample rate as Sys11 and doesn't need the high pinmame default) might help. I'll drop a note to DP.

#470 4 years ago
Quoted from planters49:

Also how do you pick the BoP 1.0 game. The only time I have seen the game selector screen was the first time I turned the machine on after installing the kit. I have not seen the game selector screen since then.

In BOP 2.0, press and hold the start button for a second or two. In BOP 1.0, during gameplay, hold both flipper buttons and press the start button. (In the beta release, BOP 1.0 quits the same way as 2.0)

#475 4 years ago
Quoted from awarner:

I added a poll to help figure this out

That'll only catch those who are actually on pinside, and are reading this thread. Sometimes we think pinside is the world, but I'd guess there are a lot of folks with 2.0 who never even heard of pinside...

Guess it'll be interesting to see though

#489 4 years ago
Quoted from BadBrad97:

What is the process for doing the update?

The update is a "beta" version, not on general release. If you go to the Dutch Pinball site, look in the BOP 2.0 forum and there is a thread on how to sign up. There are some improvements to 1.0 and 2.0 in the beta (and maybe some new bugs, who knows - it's a beta test!)

#500 4 years ago
Quoted from awarner:

I used DOS so it wouldn't care when I shut it down. I'm sure that wasn't an option for BOP 2.0 though...

On the P-ROC forum, someone did look *very* briefly at controlling the P-ROC from DOS but gave up very quickly. DOS doesn't really do USB (which connects the P-ROC to the PC), and even if it can be persuaded then the drivers which allow the comms with the P-ROC don't exist.

Then you add on top of that all the fancy graphics in BOP 2.0 and the fact it uses a newer version of Python than would run in DOS and it's game over.

Ah, the old days

#537 4 years ago
Quoted from Ed209:

Anyway to resize the DMD on BoP 1.0? It doesn't fill the entire screen when it pops up.

It should fill the whole screen, the DP folks use some piece of software to blow it up to full size. Drop them a line, they should be able to sort you out.

#539 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Wasn't this a problem with the original version of software but fixed in 1.09 (most USA kits shipped with this though vs 1.08.

Good point, the very early releases had the little itty-bitty display...

1 month later
#704 4 years ago
Quoted from alveolus:

and the 1.0 experience still has some issues

As the lucky guy that put the pinmame build together for this project, I'm curious what issues you're seeing as nothing has been passed my way. I know some folks have commented on the sound quality but that's unlikely to improve. If there are other things, have they been reported to DP?

4 weeks later
#751 3 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

Why can't they just deactivate those coils in the code?

They can deactivate the coils, but then the game won't know you're pressing the cabinet buttons. BOP is a pre-Fliptronics machine. The flipper buttons on the cabinet are not on the switch matrix, so if you press them the game doesn't know about it.

It's the actual physical activation of the flipper that the game detects. So for high score entry, video mode etc the flippers have to activate, otherwise the flipper button presses aren't seen. That's why the original Williams BOP game code has the flippers active during high score entry too.

So Scott's modification is to overcome a limitation in the WPC flipper design in this generation of machines. Can't do it just in software.

9 months later
#1303 3 years ago

Adding an autoplunger to BOP is a non-trivial piece of modification. I added one to my F-14 Tomcat with my P-ROC project. In addition to finding space under the playfield to mount the large assembly and coil (which might involve a small cut to the actual wood), you also have to cut metal from the shooter lane cover so that the autoplunger can actually touch the ball.

The other big issue with BOP is that there are no unused coil/solenoid outputs on the WPC driver board to actually connect an autoplunger to. That would mean having an additional small driver board of some kind, driven by the P-ROC directly.

Once you've done all the above, then potential software changes could be looked at. I can't see DP wanting to support folks through cutting wood and metal from their BOP machines, designing an additional driver and then doing the software

#1305 3 years ago

I suspect the physical amount of code wouldn't be huge, if it's only to autolaunch a ball during ball-save. It's designing "what to code" that would take the time.

In BOP, the P-ROC is working in "WPC mode" so is configured to run the WPC driver board with the 28 outputs (plus GI and flippers). It's capable of driving a lot more outputs than that, but it would need some investigation on the best way to do it within the configuration. You'd then get a logic level output, like currently goes to the WPC driver board. So you'd need to connect that logic level output through some new hardware (direct to transistors to drive the load, or via an Arduino to driving transistors, or however you'd choose). So how you connect the hardware could also influence the software design. Will the autolaunch be activated with a logic high or logic low? How long should the duration of the pulse be?

Also bear in mind that unless the DP folks take a saw to some bits on their BOP, fit an autolauncher and get hold of the same new hardware/driver that you're thinking of building, they've no way of testing this, so there would be the to and fro testing cycles for them too.

I remember the other changes you need to make too (at least on my F14, and the trough is the same as BOP) - the bracket for the kicker that ejects a ball to the shooter lane needs moving a little and also the switch in the shooter lane needs remounting a little.

I honestly doubt this would happen as DP have bigger fish to fry with TBL coming along. If they'd seriously considered it, it would have been part of the kit and integrated into a bunch of new multiball modes. Doing all this just to autolaunch a ball save? Not convinced.

1 week later
#1318 3 years ago

With this kit, if you're playing the original (BOP 1.0) version the helmet lamps are a pattern rather than much else. If you're playing the full 2.0 version, then the helmet lamps are properly controlled....

1 year later
#2083 1 year ago

I'm the guy who took the P-ROC version of pinmame and made a few tweaks for DP to use for the "1.0 Experience". We have very little room to manoeuvre in the depths of the chipset emulation, so I don't think much will change.

That said, Koen did suggest something that might considerably improve the sound and I'll give that a try as time allows, it could be some time from and might not even work. Bear in mind that this is just a hobby for me and I also don't have a BOP to try it in, so it's a bit of to and fro with Koen to try things beyond a simple test that I can do.

So no promises, chances are it won't change, but I am looking at it.

#2089 1 year ago

Pinmame is still being developed, but the P-ROC branch is kind of stale. Nothing anyone else can much do, but if I have any luck you'll hear eventually. Whether it will help with lag I don't know, that seems to be something only a few people have issues with.

#2091 1 year ago

I thought I'd seen some people post they didn't have lag. As mentioned, no experience myself as I don't have an actual BOP to try it in. As you say maybe they just don't notice

9 months later
#2365 1 year ago
Quoted from waynestatemac:

The 1.0 emulation sounds do suck!

It was me that put together the pinmame version that's used for 1.0, and I'm finally getting a BOP of my own; all the prior testing was very labour intensive (try something, compile, send to DP, get a response, rinse and repeat). When it arrives here, I'll blow the dust of the pinmame source and see what we can do with sounds and the helmet lamps, it'll be much easier to test now. No promises though.

1 month later
#2374 1 year ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

Snux , I really hope you have a good trick up your sleeve

Oh, I do. My machine sounds awesome. Discussions ongoing about if/how it can be released. If we do push an update, I'll post here first listing what else I've fixed and seek any other things people have issues with on the 1.0 side, be good to fix those (if possible) at the same time.

This will take some time, even if there is an update bear in mind that BOP2 isn't real high on DPs list of priorities.

3 weeks later
#2379 11 months ago

So, regarding the updates to 1.0, here's the information so far.

- DP are in no hurry to release an update. Koen isn't working for them at the moment (and is also in the middle of moving house), and they are busy with TBL. So although things are moving, don't necessarily expect anything real soon.
- The discussion about getting the improved sound distributed isn't settled yet. This is enabled by installing the Pinsound Studio software and the original BOP orchestration, then using a specially compiled version of pinmame. Pinmame then uses Pinsound for sound processing instead of emulating it (which is how it works at the moment). This works really well (my BOP 1.0 sounds great). Hopefully will have an answer here soon, Pinsound and DP both need to be happy with this approach.

Anyway, while we're waiting, here is some more information on the new build of pinmame for BOP 1.0 and what's changed / fixed. If you are aware of anything else that I've missed please let me know and I'll try and get that sorted too. Bear in mind that whenever this does start to get picked up by DP there will be some beta testing going on before a more general release.

- The new version is built using a base of Pinmame version 3.0 instead of the ancient version 2.3 that was used before. This has a number of "behind the scenes" improvements.
- It's also compiled using a newer set of compilers, so in theory might be more efficient.
- There was an issue with holding in the start button to quit 1.0 and going back to the launcher. Often a game would start just before the quit took place, and often that would kick a ball into the shooter lane. That would mean you end up at the launcher (and hence the start of whatever game you play next) with a ball in the shooter lane. Not a showstopper, but annoying. That's been fixed.
- The helmet lamps in the current BOP 1.0 were just playing a repeating/looping pattern. That was because we were unable to process the actual pattern that pinmame wants to play. We've worked out how to catch the correct patterns and get them over to the P-ROC quickly enough. So now the game plays with the helmet lamp patterns as intended by Williams
- Regarding the 'lag'. My machine doesn't seem to show any, but then some other folks with the existing 1.0 code said they didn't see it either. Anyways, the new code should perform better due both to general pinmame 3.0 / compiler improvements plus some adjustments to the P-ROC specific handling. Beta testing when we get that far should indicate if the situation is improved generally or if there is something else we need to look at. During beta testing if anyone is still experiencing some lag there is some debugging we can do to that might help.
- Someone mentioned that there is a bug where some high scores are not saved. Actually there are two parts to this. Firstly there is actually a bug in the Williams ROM for BOP where high scores can be lost. This is documented on another thread somewhere here on Pinside. That I can't do anything about. Secondly, you need to actually quit 1.0 for the save to happen - Pinmame only writes out the nvram file when it exits "nicely". If you just shutdown the machine, pinmame just quits without saving. I'm looking to see if I can do something about this.

So that's kinda where we are at the moment. When I get any more information I'll share it here, and in the meantime if you are aware of any other 1.0 issues then please let me know and I'll see what I can do.

Mark

#2384 11 months ago

Quick update

- Tom (tomlogic) who has also done a lot of work in the P-ROC pinmame build (including getting it working under Linux, updating to Pinmame 3.0 and laying the framework for intercepting low level information like the helmet lamps) knows how to achieve the clean exit. So we should be able to have BOP 1.0 save nvram (including settings, scores etc) on a regular power off without needing to exit the game manually first.
- Discussions between DP and Pinsound should pick up again once DP have got TBL back on track. At the moment we know it works (my machine is the example), hopefully they can work something out to distribute it along with the other fixes when we reach that point in the future.
- I mentioned above that there is a bug in the original Williams ROM that sometimes means high scores don't get saved. That's the bug I can't fix. I found the Pinside thread with more information, it's here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bride-of-pinbot-bop-high-score-problem

That's it for now. Any other issues / wishes for BOP 1.0 that don't involve updating the ROM code please let me know and I'll see what we can do about them.

4 months later
#2435 7 months ago
Quoted from jsa:

I heard a rumor there are sound improvements coming, so we'll hang in there

There are improvements to the 1.0 sound, I've made the changes to the version of Pinmame BOP is using so that it will run with the Pinsound Studio software instead of emulated sound. Using the original WMS sounds for BOP. Sounds a lot better. But it needs DP and Pinsound to come to some agreement, and it's hardly very far up DPs list of things at the moment.

3 months later
#2455 4 months ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

Hey snux, any news on this front?

I wish I could say yes. BOP 1.0 with Pinsound Studio is *so* much better on the sound front (and it's all just a software update, no hardware), plus I've fixed a couple of other things in the pinmame build.

The issue is that Pinsound wanted something in return from DP, to allow the use of the Pinsound Studio in BOP 2.0 which is a commercial product at the end of the day. Basically they'd like the music/sounds from BOP 2.0 to try and put together a package that would work with Pinsound in the original BOP, that way they could sell some more Pinsound hardware. DP don't see the sound improvements in Pinmame (aka 1.0) as very high on their list (they have a lot of other things going on) and didn't want to get into discussions as they spent a lot of time on the BOP 2.0 assets.

I think this will happen someday, if DP allow their sound/music to be used by Pinsound. I'm hoping this all gets sorted out, because pushing an update with these changes would be really simple.

So, we sit and wait

#2456 4 months ago
Quoted from Jesder:

I recently went through the process of cloning the SSD inside my BoP 2.0 machine, so I have a complete plug & play backup should Windows or the drive die.

Nice

#2460 4 months ago

A few people have been in contact asking if they can "beta-test" the BOP 1.0 Pinsound/Pinmame changes or have copies if they promise not to tell anyone.

Sorry, but no can do. The folks at both DP and Pinsound have put a lot of work into their respective products and I promised both parties that I wouldn't distribute this until they're in agreement. The change would then be available as a new update (1.20?) from the DP site like the others.

I hope DP manage to work through their current issues and get TBL sorted out, then maybe they'll have time to revisit BOP 2.0 again.

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