well, you have to ship the games to the US and pay customs and other fees, which probably adds 15 to 20%

The games would ship to individuals from a US location, but the games would first need to be shipped, in bulk, to the US. Shipping individual games overseas would be a operational nightmare.

Based on the last few pages, you are clearly worked up over this, not quite sure why. You have made your point, multiple times and time will tell if you are right about it not selling. Is there something else going on that has you so inflamed or was it that there was just not much else on pinside that was of interest to you last night?

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From day one it was clear that TBL fans would be all over this and there was a sense that the broader community would have a wait and see approach. At 10K, no machine is going to sell a ton of units, and I have not seen a machine yet that I would pay that for, but that is just me and each person makes their own decisions as to if it is worth is, as my mom loved to say, 'everyone is funny about money', and I've tried not to judge or label people on how they choose to spend their money.

I still expect this game to be awesome, with cool features, great 'dots' and, well, we shall see what happens with the sound package. Not saying what they have done has gone smooth, but that is certainly not surprising. I can understand that the the of lack of visible progress between the two expos was disappointing and concerning, but I'm not going to read too much into that. It was a huge endeavor and I'm sure it has been more complex and taking longer than they would like. Does seem they are making progress.

Bottom line, I look forward to seeing these show up in the US and to see how this roller coaster ride plays out. They are nice guys and trying to do something of significance, and they seem to be doing relatively the same to other projects (e.g. JJP, MMr), and have had similar bumps in the road. For those who have jumped on board, hopefully they are enjoying the ride.?

always makes me a little crazy when I see this phase, and it has become all too common. The phrase is redundant and it should just be 'deja vu'. or "I'm feeling like this is deja vu" Yogi Berra, famous for his mis-spoken statements, is the one who first said that phrase, which was viewed as funny at the time, but somehow it has become the common use of the term (so I guess I should not let it bother me at this point).

While a true deja vu experience can be experienced by anyone on occasion, it can also be a medical condition often seen with epilepsy, where strange shit happens in your brain. I know in my case it can be very disconcerting when it happens and can lead to something akin to a panic attack. I had no clue about it being a medical thing until the first time I had a seizure. Fortunately, meds have been effective in minimizing them, and I can tell you I don't miss them at all.

Funny thing is, from a medical standpoint, a true Deja Vu experience, a feeling this has happened before, is a brain/memory thing and the reality it hasn't happened before. In this case, I think Sad Sack is saying we have heard this before -- so the use of the term is technical wrong, but, I'm just being pedantic, and there is no place for that on pinside. I'm sure Sad Sack was just being funny, and by no means is this meant to be an attack on him.

in reality, as far a what the brain is doing, it is believed to be sort of like that. It has a rapid repeat of the memory in different parts of the brain that gives you that feeling of having experienced it before.

Lebowski less I believe, Hobbit, might be getting close and while I would have said it was due to production backups on WoZ, not really sure given where it is at, that you can use that as a valid excuse.

Not really comical to take this long, the comical part is that these brand new companies thought they could have machines coming off the production line in a year or two.

When I look at it, it seem to me there are really multiple 'markets' with the pinball ecosystem . . .

There are the deep pocketed collectors, who like to go NIB and get the latest and greatest. Many, but not all, of these folks are often willing to buy before playing. Typically, they then look to sell those games when out of space to go buy the next NIB. There are a few NIB buyers who are not deep pocketed and tend to churn games quickly to support their NIB addition.

The second group are those that like NIB games, but are more price conscious, they will go Pro, but often look to go premium -- if the game has shown itself to be a higher quality game. Theme can be more important to this group, as far as getting them to go premium, but they don't buy NIB as often as the first group.

The third group, are Stern fans, but those that rarely, if ever, get NIB game. They like the latest Sterns, but are not as deep pocketed, so they look to pick up the games in the secondary market. They like to play the machines first, since they have various limits in their collection. They are often looking to trade for similar games. Often some portion of the collection will be 90s DMD games, but they are more Stern oriented (really like blinding flashers and bright playfields)

The fourth group is the "Bally Williams die hards", these are guys with collections dominated by 90s B/W titles, with some other brands or late 80s games thrown into the mix. While they may have a newer stern or two in their collection, they prefer the B/W stuff (frequently say "stern flippers suck"). Accordingly these guys are rarely interesting in a game over 5K, unless a true 'A' title, like AFM, MB, MM, SS. Some of these guys will have an 80s game or two or even an EM game in their collection for variety.

The fifth group is guys who like old school games, like 70s and 80s bally and sterns. These 80s titles often make up a decent chunk of their collection. They often have the 90s B/W games and a few newer sterns sprinkled in, but they do dedicate a decent amount of their collection to the games of this era, that are often at a lower price. They often will have a couple of EMs in the mix, just because they like to be eclectic. In general they are price conscious like the previous group.

The sixth group are the EM fanatics, who typically rarely even consider something with a alpha numeric or DMD, they may mix in a newer game or two, but they are EM first and foremost. The whole NIB conversation is just noise to them.

Any of the groups (well maybe not he last group, unless it was juicy melons), could jump in a NIB game, if it is a must have theme for them, but other than the first two groups, most of the others are 'play it first' and 'buy it used'.

Not everyone will fit perfectly in these buckets, some sort of sit between. And obviously there will be plenty here on pinside who will totally disagree with this. But in reality the pricing of NIB games, for many, is not something they get too worked up over.

Playing the in wild -- a dying breed, given how hard it is to find games in the wild, although maybe easier then it was 10 years ago. The focus was on buyers and pricing, but sounds like you are a close fit for bucket 2, like NIB, but price conscious and theme is very important.

I said it is easier to find them in the wild now, than 10 years ago. I agree, at least around here, there are more places to pay then there were 5 and 10 years ago. But I don't think that is necessarily the case in most parts of the country.

I will still argue that it is harder to find games in the wild than it was in the 90s and before.

This is probably subset of some of the fourth, fifth and sixth groups (90 B/W and the early Stern/Bally and the EM guys).

I'm sure there are a lot of folks who would put themselves between buckets and there are also various forms of migration. No doubt we have seen EM guys be wiling to move into the 80s bally/stern games and some NIB guys have certainly added a B/W game or two. Probably common for a B/W guy to slowly gain appreciation for the early games and diversify and pick up a newer Stern along the way that they like the theme or game play.

I will say I love having an EM and have had a couple, but working on them is a totally different thing than solid state. If you have good 'logic' skills, then you can learn to work on them, if not, you definitely want to get one that is already fully restored.

Not sure the growth is universal, across the country or globe. Big metropolitan areas seem to have the resurgence, not sure that has spread all over. And you are certainly correct, I am not as focused as I once was in finding machines on location since I started collecting (which was when the arcade near me shut down in 99, and that I later learned was a beta test site for Williams -- which explained why the place had a killer lineup). Now I need to go no further than my basement or go to your basement or lionman's basement or PBL or . . .

aren't there TBL conventions? If so, betting you could charge $5 a game at one of those (okay maybe two games for $5), that would at least make a little bit back on the "investment".