I'm not sure I buy that argument (the euro is weaker...The USD isn't stronger). Over the last 6 month the USD is up 20-40% over everything.

It wasn't long ago CAD was at par or even ahead of USD. USD is now plus 42ish

<blaockquote cite="#2925738">Wow, this thread exploded. Wish only that some people would take the fighting to PM. But it's Pinside and it has happened befor and will happen again
When talking about exchange rate, yep the dollar is stronger so pricing should decrease. However, it is not that the dollar is stronger but the euro is weaker.
So parts coming from outside Europe all have become more expensive. Think not only about flippermech's but also displays, computer etc. so the advantage vapors quickly
On a personal note : DP is working hard to get the job done and very likely those visiting TPF will see the latest result of their work. My personal thoughts of a Dutchman

I don't buy it either, and I am living in the Euro Zone and travelling a lot (currently in Japan)

It's a mechanical marvel for sure. It's costly... but I suspect it may become boring extremely fast.

Give me a TBL "Pro" priced like a Stern Pro, without this lower PF, put a picture of the dude instead - ACDC Pro-like - and replace the bowling alley by a virtual bowling game.

WPT upper PF is really good. TBL is not bad either, but in a very different way. Has to be compared with other single flipper PF. WoZ left upper PF may be? In any case, nothing wrong with it.

I think the game looks like it has potential. I'm personally not a fan of the art but that's very subjective and just my opinion. I think the upper playfield is really well done and has the potential to be one of the best ever. I had the opposite feeling with the bowling mech, felt cheap and not really that much fun. As for them being made right now I thought they were subcontracting out building the games? If that is the case just look how long it has taken MMr to get made and an actual pinball company is building those. Whoever they contract to build them will be starting from scratch with little to no experience. It could be a long road to getting these made. I hope it works out, the more pinball the better. I'm out at that price point though, 8K is my breaking point and even then I'm an idiot for paying that much for a game.

I dont' understand how a game can cost a certain amount of euros like say 7500 euro. If the dollar is stronger, we should be getting closer and closer to 7500 USD.

It may have been mentioned already but what was the price increase for purchasers in Europe and Canada?

The games would ship to individuals from a US location, but the games would first need to be shipped, in bulk, to the US. Shipping individual games overseas would be a operational nightmare.

Based on the last few pages, you are clearly worked up over this, not quite sure why. You have made your point, multiple times and time will tell if you are right about it not selling. Is there something else going on that has you so inflamed or was it that there was just not much else on pinside that was of interest to you last night?

.

From day one it was clear that TBL fans would be all over this and there was a sense that the broader community would have a wait and see approach. At 10K, no machine is going to sell a ton of units, and I have not seen a machine yet that I would pay that for, but that is just me and each person makes their own decisions as to if it is worth is, as my mom loved to say, 'everyone is funny about money', and I've tried not to judge or label people on how they choose to spend their money.

I still expect this game to be awesome, with cool features, great 'dots' and, well, we shall see what happens with the sound package. Not saying what they have done has gone smooth, but that is certainly not surprising. I can understand that the the of lack of visible progress between the two expos was disappointing and concerning, but I'm not going to read too much into that. It was a huge endeavor and I'm sure it has been more complex and taking longer than they would like. Does seem they are making progress.

Bottom line, I look forward to seeing these show up in the US and to see how this roller coaster ride plays out. They are nice guys and trying to do something of significance, and they seem to be doing relatively the same to other projects (e.g. JJP, MMr), and have had similar bumps in the road. For those who have jumped on board, hopefully they are enjoying the ride.?

It's deja vous all over again.

This is where a NSNL would come in handy. Calm the nervous natives with an update and identify outstanding issues. Add a few pics and walla! Also not buying any argument that it takes too much effort away from the project to provide some answers to your paid-in and potential customers.

always makes me a little crazy when I see this phase, and it has become all too common. The phrase is redundant and it should just be 'deja vu'. or "I'm feeling like this is deja vu" Yogi Berra, famous for his mis-spoken statements, is the one who first said that phrase, which was viewed as funny at the time, but somehow it has become the common use of the term (so I guess I should not let it bother me at this point).

While a true deja vu experience can be experienced by anyone on occasion, it can also be a medical condition often seen with epilepsy, where strange shit happens in your brain. I know in my case it can be very disconcerting when it happens and can lead to something akin to a panic attack. I had no clue about it being a medical thing until the first time I had a seizure. Fortunately, meds have been effective in minimizing them, and I can tell you I don't miss them at all.

Funny thing is, from a medical standpoint, a true Deja Vu experience, a feeling this has happened before, is a brain/memory thing and the reality it hasn't happened before. In this case, I think Sad Sack is saying we have heard this before -- so the use of the term is technical wrong, but, I'm just being pedantic, and there is no place for that on pinside. I'm sure Sad Sack was just being funny, and by no means is this meant to be an attack on him.

Walla?

Maybe it is just a glitch in the matrix. Serioulsy, when we watch mass stockholm syndrome sufferers defend their captors, it's really pathetic. And yes, the phrase is a facetious comment that suggests we have forgotten our recent experiences.

in reality, as far a what the brain is doing, it is believed to be sort of like that. It has a rapid repeat of the memory in different parts of the brain that gives you that feeling of having experienced it before.

Voila'! Should have typed voila' dammit.

I deal with facts. The facts don't point to anything related to what Shit-Mask or Jplop did. There is no stockholm syndrome. There are no captors. The only pathetic thing is those who wish to deal with negativity with no FACTS to back up their claims.

It's nothing short of comical how long it's taking some of these games to actually see the light of day.

I remember thinking it was a miracle when people started receiving their BBB remakes. Has it been longer for the likes of Hobbit and Lebowski?

I just don't get all the crying over price.

Is it expensive? Yes.

Is it too expensive? Probably.

It's a toy. Don't buy it if you think it's too much.

Lebowski was announced in early 2014. Prototypes were at Chicago Expo in 2014. Most orders were probably placed then. Engineering samples were shown in Nov'15. How long was BBB from announce to delivery?

Lebowski less I believe, Hobbit, might be getting close and while I would have said it was due to production backups on WoZ, not really sure given where it is at, that you can use that as a valid excuse.

Not really comical to take this long, the comical part is that these brand new companies thought they could have machines coming off the production line in a year or two.

Can't wait for Nate to talk about this one on the next Coast 2 Coast pinball..

For the sake of accuracy, TBL was actually announced in December 2013.

http://www.pinballnews.com/news/lebowski.html

So it's been more than 2 years. If they start shipping soon, I think that is fairly impressive to get a pin out in that time frame from a new company.

But frankly I don't think we will see TBL shipping for quite some time (3 years after announcement).

Who be unboxing first, Hobbit or TBL?

Fun stuff. Loosen up a bit. I'm done aggravating poor Greg

The "fact" still remains that it is WAY overpriced and I'd say the same thing about TH but hey, if it floats your boat knock yourselves out

I agree that $8,500+ is expensive for a game. There is no doubt about it, but to say it won't ship is insulting to those with skin in the game (including the US/Canadian distributors).

FWIW, I received a friendly reminder to make my last Achiever payment. The communication from Barry and Melissa (Cointaker) was great. The email implied that production is starting very soon, hence the request for final payment. They even followed up after receiving my final payment.

They also acknowledged our patience and apologized for the delay. I like that DP takes ownership of their mistakes/mishaps. No company is perfect and I would still buy a TBL over a NIB Stern.

I'm sure a NSNL is coming soon but I'm positive they are busy working on getting the game ready to go.

Please ignore these naysayers. I can't wait to see everyone's unboxing photos.

I really liked the game when i got to play it but 10k No Thanks. I think for 10k you should get the real songs from the movie.

Sorry but I've watched TBL gameplay videos and yeah its a good looking game but its not any better than the recent Stern LE/PRE's or JJP or Heighway, really not seeing the superiority that many have claimed to be bulit into this game, yeah it has some very nice features but please explain to me how TBL trumps GOTLE or STLE, WOZ and TH and so on. I'm not knocking the game or the price just curious.

Europeans can't do anything on their own without Americans. What makes you think manufacturing a pinball machine is any different?

Universal healthcare, education, mass transit, vacation time, life expectancy, pinball forums...

It's easy to explain, it doesn't trump anything. When it finally gets delivered and we can see the whole package then we'll see how it measures up.

Food.....

Gun control? Just saying.

A permanent eject was given for that inflammatory & unnecessary comment. Please lets keep this thread on topic and leave that in the rear view.

Ice you have made your point thoroughly please allow others to discuss.

And sanitation, the aqueduct, roads, irrigation, medicine, education, public health, and the wine.

TBL looks good so far, but it's not complete without the rug modes, so can't really judge it yet.

Crying over price is actually feedback to the sellers that their customers would buy if priced differently. I want(ed) one but will not support the price.

I think it was pretty obvious those who think it's too much ain't buying it.

If the comments weren't a clear indication of that, future sales may be.

but if sales are not up to snuff. They won't know why people are not buying it, unless the ones that wanted to buy it, but choose not to didn't speak up. Without input, companies have no idea why a product is or is not moving as much as they had hoped. If they want to boost sales, they will notice that they would have a huge increase in sales, by taking off a $1000 or so. Sometimes not making as much profit, means more profit in the long run.

Here in the UK we regularly pay $8K for PROs! $10K for PREM & $12K for LE's

Import tax is calculated on machine price and the cost to ship it over!

Even Highway Pinballs are cheaper for you guys and they are made here! Go figure!

Please forgive me if I am not sympathetic to the pinballs are too much! If you don't like the price don't buy it.

Pinball companies will not lower prices because someone on a forum moans about it.

Only on a mass boycot INTERNATIONALY which won't happen. See the amount of pins that go abroad on Sterns factory tour and George Gomez says Australia market is huge, Western Europe market is biggest buyer.

We are paying through the nose for games from the US. You guys are lucky.

DP CHARGED £6000 for pre order which was $9000 at that time of interest rate.

Don't like it, don't pay it, get one on the second hand market.

Rant over

I've tried to contact Melissa a few times with no luck...Anyone know if she's away or something?

We're at the tail end of a blizzard. I wouldn't expect them to have regular business hours today.

I think a forum is an appropriate place to express the opinion that a pin is over priced. IMO companies will soon hit the ceiling and lower prices because some (not all) refuse to pay such a premium for a toy. I get it it's an expensive hobby. However, many myself included think it's getting out of control. Will it help to complain on a forum? Maybe, maybe not. What is guaranteed not to help is to silence those that refuse to pay a price for a pin and respectfully express that point.

What we do know at least from Stern and JJP's part is they pay close attention daily to what is expressed on Pinside.

Stern has done a much better job recently with code and updates. Other changes coming in 2016 that benefits us the consumer.

Price being another issue, the "buy it or don't" mantra means what?

As prices go higher and higher the "don't" column is going to add up more and more.

We just saw this with SMVE. I don't know about OPs and what they need to pay to make it profitable but I can't imagine an endless flow of $8k plus games and HUO people screaming "take my money" over and over.

My kingdom for a new shit newsletter...

When I look at it, it seem to me there are really multiple 'markets' with the pinball ecosystem . . .

There are the deep pocketed collectors, who like to go NIB and get the latest and greatest. Many, but not all, of these folks are often willing to buy before playing. Typically, they then look to sell those games when out of space to go buy the next NIB. There are a few NIB buyers who are not deep pocketed and tend to churn games quickly to support their NIB addition.

The second group are those that like NIB games, but are more price conscious, they will go Pro, but often look to go premium -- if the game has shown itself to be a higher quality game. Theme can be more important to this group, as far as getting them to go premium, but they don't buy NIB as often as the first group.

The third group, are Stern fans, but those that rarely, if ever, get NIB game. They like the latest Sterns, but are not as deep pocketed, so they look to pick up the games in the secondary market. They like to play the machines first, since they have various limits in their collection. They are often looking to trade for similar games. Often some portion of the collection will be 90s DMD games, but they are more Stern oriented (really like blinding flashers and bright playfields)

The fourth group is the "Bally Williams die hards", these are guys with collections dominated by 90s B/W titles, with some other brands or late 80s games thrown into the mix. While they may have a newer stern or two in their collection, they prefer the B/W stuff (frequently say "stern flippers suck"). Accordingly these guys are rarely interesting in a game over 5K, unless a true 'A' title, like AFM, MB, MM, SS. Some of these guys will have an 80s game or two or even an EM game in their collection for variety.

The fifth group is guys who like old school games, like 70s and 80s bally and sterns. These 80s titles often make up a decent chunk of their collection. They often have the 90s B/W games and a few newer sterns sprinkled in, but they do dedicate a decent amount of their collection to the games of this era, that are often at a lower price. They often will have a couple of EMs in the mix, just because they like to be eclectic. In general they are price conscious like the previous group.

The sixth group are the EM fanatics, who typically rarely even consider something with a alpha numeric or DMD, they may mix in a newer game or two, but they are EM first and foremost. The whole NIB conversation is just noise to them.

Any of the groups (well maybe not he last group, unless it was juicy melons), could jump in a NIB game, if it is a must have theme for them, but other than the first two groups, most of the others are 'play it first' and 'buy it used'.

Not everyone will fit perfectly in these buckets, some sort of sit between. And obviously there will be plenty here on pinside who will totally disagree with this. But in reality the pricing of NIB games, for many, is not something they get too worked up over.

This aggressive pricing will not stand man, The Dude minds!
This isn't Nam, this is pinball and there are rules.
For 10K I have to mark it a zero or I will be entering a world of pain.

^^^ right on, Walter!

How much do they shave off for no rug and chrome?

Dont forget about us location players who prefer to play in the wild, but will consider NIB on rare occasion. My last Stern NIB was TSPP for $3700 shipped. My next NIB Stern will be TWD premium for considerably more.

Gary treats objects like pinballers man.
All he really wants is his rug back, it really pulled his ears together.

Playing the in wild -- a dying breed, given how hard it is to find games in the wild, although maybe easier then it was 10 years ago. The focus was on buyers and pricing, but sounds like you are a close fit for bucket 2, like NIB, but price conscious and theme is very important.

Gonna have to disagree with you on this one. There is increasingly more pinball found on location to play, especially over the past few years. Several large locations just in the Chicago area. During this time, Emporium went from 1 to 3 locations, Headquarters opened 2 locations, Logan arcade, Level 257, Punch Bowl, Chicago Street in Joliet, etc. Not to mention many of the smaller locations. The evidence suggests otherwise. Maybe you need to get out in the wild a little more