(Topic ID: 258426)

Bonus arrows sporadically lit. Is this the AS-style "I" relay again?


By TeaHaus

51 days ago



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  • 17 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 49 days ago by TeaHaus
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0Royal-Flush-pinside-pic (resized).jpg
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#1 51 days ago

After my last shot at fixing my bonus count-down in my 1976 Royal Flush, after cleaning and adjusting the "I" relay, everything scores as it should now, there are definite pulses at the appropriate bonus point but I've noticed that the yellow arrows indicating the bonus position are not always lit. From the schematics I've found where all this occurs but my schematic reading/understanding is still at novice level. Can someone enlighten me on where to look and adjust something so the lights work properly. I've checked all the bulbs and they are all good. The lights will sometimes light and sometimes not. Seems like some contact point is wonky. Here's the portion of the schematics referring to the bonus lights. Thanks for any advice.........

RFschematicsIrelay (resized).jpg
#2 51 days ago

The double arrow inside the dashed box labeled "I Relay Disc" represents a small wiper on the I relay that gets rotated as the relay advances. The wiper connects different points on the contact board beneath it. The I relay has 10 positions so this pattern is repeated twice on the contact board that controls the lights. Chances are that the wiper that controls the arrow lights isn't making reliable contact with all of the positions on the contact board.

You may be able to manually advance the I relay and see the arrows on the playfield advance. That would help you identify which contacts aren't reliable.

Note that there are two wipers and two contact boards so check the wire colors to identify which board controls the lights.

/Mark

#3 51 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

The double arrow inside the dashed box labeled "I Relay Disc" represents a small wiper on the I relay that gets rotated as the relay advances. The wiper connects different points on the contact board beneath it. The I relay has 10 positions so this pattern is repeated twice on the contact board that controls the lights. Chances are that the wiper that controls the arrow lights isn't making reliable contact with all of the positions on the contact board.
You may be able to manually advance the I relay and see the arrows on the playfield advance. That would help you identify which contacts aren't reliable.
Note that there are two wipers and two contact boards so check the wire colors to identify which board controls the lights.
/Mark

Thanks Mark for the concise explanation........will have a look at that right now.

#4 50 days ago

Hi TeaHaus
look here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/1976-royal-flush-bonus-issue-as-relay#post-5379406 on the bottom, left on the last JPG - one of the bakelite disks --- on the bottom on the disk the left-side solderlug is referred as "C" for common (think Your wire-BL-BLK in Your snippet of schematics is soldered-on to "C for common"). Then the (bottom) right-side solderlug is "0 means Zero" - the next upwards is "1" and so on. Also (on the bottom-right-corner of my JPG) - see the wiper B-9015. Greetings Rolf

#5 50 days ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi TeaHaus
look here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/1976-royal-flush-bonus-issue-as-relay#post-5379406 on the bottom, left on the last JPG - one of the bakelite disks --- on the bottom on the disk the left-side solderlug is referred as "C" for common (think Your wire-BL-BLK in Your snippet of schematics is soldered-on to "C for common"). Then the (bottom) right-side solderlug is "0 means Zero" - the next upwards is "1" and so on. Also (on the bottom-right-corner of my JPG) - see the wiper B-9015. Greetings Rolf

Hi Rolf: Thanks for the link........yes, I see all those lugs and they all seem to be in order. The wiper doesn't seem to stall when it's doing the bonus count. Count seems ok but the lights don't all come on as they should. I will try and post a video of what is happening. Before, the arrows were lighting but going through the steps way too fast. Now the pulses seem correct but no lights but bonus count works.

#6 50 days ago

Hi TeaHaus
do the basic test - do the lights function ? Clip-on a Jumper-Wire on the Switch on E-Relay, side wire-WH-BLK is soldered-on - the other end of the Jumper-Wire tip-on at the solder-lugs on the bakelite plate - first onto lug having wire-MAR soldered-on - then onto wire-MAR-WH and so on - You learn about "is the fault in the part You do the jumpering - or is the fault on the connections to the bulb-1,2,3,4,5 ? Greetings Rolf

0Royal-Flush-pinside-pic (resized).jpg
#7 50 days ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi TeaHaus
do the basic test - do the lights function ? Clip-on a Jumper-Wire on the Switch on E-Relay, side wire-WH-BLK is soldered-on - the other end of the Jumper-Wire tip-on at the solder-lugs on the bakelite plate - first onto lug having wire-MAR soldered-on - then onto wire-MAR-WH and so on - You learn about "is the fault in the part You do the jumpering - or is the fault on the connections to the bulb-1,2,3,4,5 ? Greetings Rolf[quoted image]

Thanks for the to-do list Rolf! So I jumpered all the relevant wires on the lugs of the "I" relay to the wh-blk on the E relay and all the bonus arrow lights are working. I guess this tells me that the bulbs and connections are all good. Still getting sporadic lights when the bonus is scoring though.........

#8 50 days ago

Have you already checked the I relay wipers? Are they clean and tensioned? You might also check the I relay jones plugs. They usually have their own jones plugs so they can be removed from the game for servicing.

#9 50 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Have you already checked the I relay wipers? Are they clean and tensioned? You might also check the I relay jones plugs. They usually have their own jones plugs so they can be removed from the game for servicing.

Hi Mark: I did have the I relay out, cleaned both bakelite boards (nice and shiny), teflon gel on them, carefully cleaned the plastic gear cogs with alcohol, made sure it was stepping nicely, and cleaned the two switches sandwiched in-between the bakelite boards. Here's what's happening when I down all the targets on ball one of a 3-ball game.

1. All the bonus lights come on and the targets score the correct amount.
2. Drain the ball
3. Bonus count starts (should be 15 000 added to the score)
4. 4000 of the 15000 score, 1000 (first bonus level) scores but no yellow arrow; nothing on the 2000 bonus level; 3000 bonus level scores with the arrow
lit; nothing on the 4000 bonus level (no light); and nothing on the 5000 bonus level and again no light.
5. Ball gets ejected into shooter lane. Ball 2
6. Knock down all targets. Double-bonus is lit. Should add 30 000 to score.
7. 1000 bonus level scores with arrow light working. 2000 bonus level scores with arrow light not lit; 3000 bonus level scores but no light; 4000 bonus
level scores with arrow light flickering. 5000 bonus level scores 1000 with no arrow light working. 9000 short of bonus that should have been added to
score.
8 Ball 3. Knock down all targets. 30 000 should be added to score
9. 1000 bonus level scores with bonus arrow lit; 2000 bonus level scores but no arrow lit; 3000 bonus level scores with arrow lit; 4000 bonus level scores
with arrow lit; 5000 bonus level scores with no arrow lit.

Not sure what all that accomplishes but it kind of works and kind of not works!! (isn't that the way with these EM's)

#10 50 days ago

Also, just to clarify, the above procedure is sporadic. I just went through a 3-ball game (simulated) and the sequence of scoring is different from what I wrote in the above. Strange how the Royal Flush was working fine a week ago, and then just started doing this. EM gremlins??

#11 50 days ago

I thought all the scoring was working properly? Now it sounds like neither the arrows nor the scoring is working consistently.

Have a close look at the two small wipers on either side of the I relay. As they advance they should always land in the center of the copper pads on the contact board. It sounds like your wipers may not be. Also check the boards for signs of wear, burning or pitting.

Quoted from TeaHaus:

it kind of works and kind of not works!! (isn't that the way with these EM's)

I respectfully disagree. If it's intermittent there's still work to do but with few exceptions it can be made reliable.

#12 50 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

I thought all the scoring was working properly? Now it sounds like neither the arrows nor the scoring is working consistently.
Have a close look at the two small wipers on either side of the I relay. As they advance they should always land in the center of the copper pads on the contact board. It sounds like your wipers may not be. Also check the boards for signs of wear, burning or pitting.

I respectfully disagree. If it's intermittent there's still work to do but with few exceptions it can be made reliable.

You're probably right......I meant they kind of work for novices like me!! Yes, the scoring was working and now, not so much. I'll check the I relay again; maybe I'll post some pics or video just to show how it's looking. Could be something I'm not seeing. I had a look at all the relays that sit in that bank under the playfield and notice that the J relay when manually engaged, tends to miss or the cog-wheel kind of misses. This is the double-bonus relay from what I gather from the schematic.

#13 50 days ago

As stated above check the tensioning of the wipers and spring, also check the AS armature alignment and drive pawl travel:

Relay adjustment app note is here: http://www.pbresource.com/relay/gtb-asadj.jpg

If they're out of whack, you can get intermittent operation... occasional jumps of two positions, skidding, etc.

Watch the wipers as the bonus is scoring, see if the wipers jump multiple positions. Sometimes the quick "snap" of the firing solenoid behaves differently than hand actuation.

#14 50 days ago

Deleted

#15 49 days ago

Here's a short video of the "I" relay when I actuate it manually..........does it look ok to you?

#16 49 days ago

Yes, it looks like it is stepping correctly when slowly hand actuated, can you observe it when it is operating in the game?

In game, when the solenoid advances the wipers. it is a more rapid action, more like "flicking" the armature with your finger.

#17 49 days ago
Quoted from DaMoib:

Yes, it looks like it is stepping correctly when slowly hand actuated, can you observe it when it is operating in the game?
In game, when the solenoid advances the wipers. it is a more rapid action, more like "flicking" the armature with your finger.

I'll take a video in-game tomorrow. Thanks for any advice/help!!

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