(Topic ID: 71543)

Bogus Ratings


By mof

5 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 100 posts
  • 49 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by DefaultGen
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 6 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

health-alert-youre-taking-crap-wrong-is-you-poop-properly.w654.jpg
FNXKIPKFD2IBRXG.LARGE.jpg
Screenshot 2013-11-29 12.35.13.png
Screenshot 2013-11-29 12.37.09.png
BT_3_bogus.jpg
image.jpg

There are 100 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 5 years ago
Quoted from PEN:

How many people go back to change their rating?

I do, quite often actually.

#52 5 years ago

Yep... I update my ratings as I deem fit. Sometimes I only get to play a single copy of the deck. Other times I get to play a game I haven't seen in years. Sometimes there are software revisions and other times a game is taken care of as it should be and plays differently than it had in a less than ideal state of operation.

I keep the old reviews and add on to the history of my experience with the deck . A review is not an absolute.

#53 5 years ago

Who rates what? And why? What am I missing?
What was that extremely long opening paragraph about?

#54 5 years ago
Quoted from centerflank:

I do, quite often actually.

I'm sure your the exception not the rule. Your also an honest guy from what I can tell.

#55 5 years ago
Quoted from Caucasian2Step:

Yep... I update my ratings as I deem fit. Sometimes I only get to play a single copy of the deck. Other times I get to play a game I haven't seen in years. Sometimes there are software revisions and other times a game is taken care of as it should be and plays differently than it had in a less than ideal state of operation.
I keep the old reviews and add on to the history of my experience with the deck . A review is not an absolute.

I think thats respectable. I just do not have the drive or time to rate all or even half the games I have played. So I rate games I have played a fair amount of through the years.

#56 5 years ago

If I believe it's a ten, it's a ten to me.

#57 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Rating themselves are bogus, just read the comments and take those opinions with a grain of salt!
How would the ratings look now if they were started over from scratch? So many of the reviews were done when recent pins weren't even out to compare to.

Exactly! I was recently criticized for making a comment about them being overrated.. I have rated several games. Big deal. I still enjoy rating them and try to be fair, but the reviews shouldnt be used for anything other than fun.

#58 5 years ago
Quoted from PEN:

Your also an honest guy

Crap, I guess I better tell you I dont really live in Hulktown then

#59 5 years ago

Lets all get crazy and push southpark to #1 just to mess with the system. JK

#60 5 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Why? That could be fairly well thought out rating.

Maybe it is/was. But to me, when the scale would appear to be from 1-10, a 5.something rating connotes a D-. Far below average. To say that WOZ is far worse than most pins ever made "sounds" (that's the word I used originally. Not "is". Sounds.) "bogus".

#61 5 years ago
Quoted from centerflank:

Crap, I guess I better tell you I dont really live in Hulktown then

I feel dirty now

#62 5 years ago
Quoted from wtatumjr:

A 5.92 rating puts WOZ in 279th place just above "Bugs Bunny Birthday Bash"....really?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

#63 5 years ago
Quoted from PEN:

I'm sure your the exception not the rule.

Why are you sure of that? My board game reviews are constantly being revised as my opinion changes over time. Most people I know who have large collections enjoy going back and looking at their old ratings and revising them. It's kinda like experience scrapbooking. I haven't started reviewing pins but I'm sure those will change with time as well.

When I first played Seawitch, I thought it was janky and irritating. Now it's in my top 5. My opinion changed. I wouldn't rate a game based on what I believe its objective value is to other people, I rate games based on my experience with it.

#64 5 years ago
Quoted from Ilthuain:

Why are you sure of that? My board game reviews are constantly being revised as my opinion changes over time. Most people I know who have large collections enjoy going back and looking at their old ratings and revising them. It's kinda like experience scrapbooking. I haven't started reviewing pins but I'm sure those will change with time as well.
When I first played Seawitch, I thought it was janky and irritating. Now it's in my top 5. My opinion changed. I wouldn't rate a game based on what I believe its objective value is to other people, I rate games based on my experience with it.

Ok, let me rephrase. I am willing to bet, most people rate a game and leave it at that. I'm not including you, as most people. No offence intended

#65 5 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Maybe it is/was. But to me, when the scale would appear to be from 1-10, a 5.something rating connotes a D-. Far below average. To say that WOZ is far worse than most pins ever made "sounds" (that's the word I used originally. Not "is". Sounds.) "bogus".

That would be an issue with the presentation of the scale, and not the review itself. The user is asked to rate each field with a 1-6. They are not asked to give a percentage.

And still, it's subjective. If I tend to enjoy most pins and I am very forgiving of their shortcomings, the division between the top 10% and the bottom 10% might be between 4 and 6 in each category. If I am more critical, then a pin that scores a 5 in gameplay might be one of my favorites because I reserve 6 for my absolute favorite.

#66 5 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

A "7" would be "average" by the common measure, which I consider the school grading system. 7 would be a "C" - 70% out of 100 and considered "average".
A 6 would be a D...and anything under 6 a D minus, which is decidedly below average. Personally I think anything in the 5's could be considered an "F"...otherwise known as a failing grade.

5 people agreed to this "line of reasoning." (quoted above)

This motivates me to help those who are struggling to see how the Pinside system is quite different from other rating systems. I'll try to show how in as few words and steps as possible to demonstrate the difference.

Take the quiz below, and let everyone know how it turns out. If you get it 100% correct, you can thumbs up this post to let everyone know you got 100%! No peeking!

(I'll post the answers at the bottom of the post, to not spoil it.)

QUIZ
1. What is the average LETTER choice in this 5 point scale?: F-D-C-B-A?
2. What is the average PHRASE choice in this 6 point scale?: "terrible", "poor", "not so good", "decent", "good", "excellent"
3. What number (60-100) do we typically assign to C in the US school system? (If your answer is +/-5 of the answer I give, you get this right)
4. What number would we assign as an average score in a system that goes from 1 to 10? (Now multiply that number by 10)
5. Does 75 equal 55?

Bonus question (If you want to earn a 6 out of 5 score!): What makes these two systems so different?

the
answers
are
way
down
here
don't
cheat
santa
is
watching

Answers: 1.C, 2.'the midpoint between "not so good" and "decent"', 3. 75, 4. 55, 5. no.

To learn more about Likert scales: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likert_scale
To learn more about school grading systems: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grading_(education)

Both are good reads.

#67 5 years ago

How is the answer to 4) 5.5 if its multiplied by ten?

#68 5 years ago
Quoted from mof:

5 people agreed to this "line of reasoning."
This motivates me to help those who are struggling to see how the Pinside system is quite different from other rating systems. I'll try to show how in as few words and steps as possible to demonstrate the difference.
Take the quiz below, and let everyone know how it turns out. If you get it 100% correct, you can thumbs up this post to let everyone know you got 100%! No peeking!
(I'll post the answers at the bottom of the post, to not spoil it.)
1. What is the average LETTER choice in this 5 point scale?: F-D-C-B-A?
2. What is the average PHRASE choice in this 6 point scale?: "terrible", "poor", "not so good", "decent", "good", "excellent"
3. What number (60-100) do we typically assign to C in the US school system? (If your answer is +/-5 you get this right)
4. What number would we assign as an average score in a system that goes from 1 to 10? (Now multiply that number by 10)
5. Does 75 equal 55?
If you got all five answers right, you get to mark this test thumbs up and show off your High IQ!:
the
answers
are
way
down
here
don't
cheat
santa
is
watching
Answers: 1.C, 2.'the midpoint between "not so good" and "decent"', 3. 75, 4. 5.5, 5. no.

Ahhhh, sounds a little bogus to me!

#69 5 years ago
Quoted from centerflank:

How is the answer to 4) 5.5 if its multiplied by ten?

TY for the proofread, corrected !
-mof

#70 5 years ago

I don"t really put to much into the Pinside Ranking system. It's a subjective thing. One man's meat is another man's poison. I am curious though. Is this photo bogus?

image.jpg
#71 5 years ago

BT_3_bogus.jpg

Every time I see this thread, this is all I can think of.

#72 5 years ago
Quoted from PEN:

As a side note. I can not wrap my head around why anyone would want to rate a pin before software is done.

so in your opinion no stern games should have any ratings.

#73 5 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

I don"t really put to much into the Pinside Ranking system. It's a subjective thing. One man's meat is another man's poison. I am curious though. Is this photo bogus?

image.jpg 72 KB

Negative.

-1
#74 5 years ago

I always think it is funny when people talk about "not even looking at ratings." Ratings are important because, like it or not, higher ratings = higher value this is why Demolition man, made a year after though still wide body, is less valuable than Indiana Jones the pinball Adventure.

It doesn't take anything away from the "fun" of Demo man but, the theme art package etc....well, detract from its desirability.

unfortunately the ratings system is used to inflate game values on Pinside...which makes the market(on pinside) kind of skewed.
If you really want to learn about a pin though...you know, to "compare" it to others you have liked to see if it might be worth buying...use multiple sources like you were taught in school...even then you STILL might trade it in a month

I personally think that Wizard of Oz is in no way less than a top 20 machine but...that is just me being hypnotized by all the pretty lights

#75 5 years ago

One of the coolest things about ratings for me is that I'm now always on the hunt to play a new game wherever I go. When I find a table that I haven't played before it's an "Automatic Great Day" for me. I feel like I'm a 6 year old kid with a pocket full of quarters at the roller disco. I'm giddy and then I do the happy pinball dance as I get to play a "new" game and take some notes so I can write a review. Depending on the experience playing the game ... This can be a thing of beauty or a glorified rant. Either way, I'm gonna enjoy sharing the experience and I can't wait to find a "new" pinball game again.

At least, that's how it works for me!

#76 5 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

so in your opinion no stern games should have any ratings.

I see what you did there.

There is a big difference between finished and done.

Until the product is said to be finished or is no longer being produced I can not assume it is finished.

#77 5 years ago
Quoted from Caucasian2Step:

As someone who LOVES to write pinball reviews. I've got a few things to say. You have been warned... HA!
1) I see reviews as a representation of a person's pinball "Philosophy". Personally (as a person who loves pinball) I am all about the game within the box. Do I have biases... yes. Do I find games that exceed or alter my expectation, I certainly do. Especially older games from the 50's and even the 40's. I usually don't care for these games, but the more I seek out games to review, these are the ones that I am finding, playing and spending time with to put together an honest assessment. I am not starting to understand why some collectors focus on these decks. The oldest game in my collection is from 1963 and if I found a great playing game that was older, I'd seriously consider buying it. In line with my personal pin-philosophy, I have altered the importance of certain aspects of my own ratings (reduced the importance of the cabinet and increased the value of game play) to reflect this point of view.
2) I don't take anything that anyone says here personally. I love pinside and all the characters that inhabit it, but in the grand scheme of life, no one here has any real effect on my life. People that get their panties in a twist over things like this are very silly people and should be mocked for the fools they are. Part of this has to do with my own pinball journey through life. A while ago I earned the reputation for being an angry player. I'd take out my frustration on games. This got to the point where people would have to take me to the side and set me straight. I stopped getting invited to events because people believed I'd abuse their games.
I like my friends.
I had no excuses for my behaviour.
Real change had to come from within.
I work on it every day because every day I do, the further away from that emotional retard that I had let myself become.
This is what I see when I see people do things like this on pinside, or RGP, or IPDB or in real life. I see part of me that I really don't like. So I laugh at them as I laugh at myself. I forgive them for being having a low EQ as I do sometimes. I try to be the best I can to them, because that is what they usually want (good and real attention as compared to just any kind of attention). Lastly, I love them for who they are and that's that. I love you too. I sincerely try to practice that honest love to everyone I meet. Unless you are an douchenozzle, of course...
3) When I say things that are mocking or negative, I do it with a smile on my face. You know... as a joke. Get it? The more people get angry about things like this the funnier it is and the joke is on them. The joke will continue to be on them until they get it. You are not Joe Pesci in Goodfellas. You are a pinhead. Pinheads are big kids who play with big box toys. I have certainly have met a few characters in the pinball community. I even had one treat me really badly. But that was him, not me. Out of all the pinheads I have come across in my life I have NEVER met a mean pinhead. I have met some incredibly intense competitors, but they are not mean. They just really want to win so badly that they forget who they are in the process sometimes. Not that "I" have ever done something like that before. Nope. Not me. Ever. (Psssst... that was a joke.) In summary this string needs a review as only Caucasian2Step can do the voodoo that pinside loves, so well.
The Pros:
We are playing pinball.
The Cons:
We forget we are playing pinball.
The Takeaway:
Hey, it's only pinball!!! - Rudy

Really love reading your reviews my friend, thanks for taking the time to really go into depth which each machine you rate, and sharing it with the community, I remember one night I started reading your reviews and by the time I was finished it was like 6 in morning, and I didn't realize because they were so in depth and interesting, Keep up the good work, hope to read a few more in the future...cheers...

-4
#78 5 years ago

WoZ being rated a 1 is just fine and not bogus. 10 is fine as well.

#79 5 years ago

Sorry my late reply to this thread. I already contacted MOF about this but figured to also post some remarks here.

First of all, the top 100 took a lot of time to built and a lot of time to maintain and I expect people who decide to participate in it to take rating machines serious. If I find people clowning around with the ratings system then I will simply reset their rating status to 'unchecked' which will cause their rating reviews to disappear from all Pinside pages but their own personal Pinside profile page. That will also stop their ratings from counting towards the Top 100 listing and counting towards a machine's total score.

The key phrase in the above paragraph is "if I find" because that's where the problem is. I can't keep up monitoring the thousands of ratings being made by people who were already approved initially.

And that's where you, the helpful Pinside member, step in: You can use the bogus flag to help identify these people.

When you use the "bogus flag" button, nothing actually happens but a number is stored in our database. Once a rater has an x amount of bogus flags, I will be triggered to look into his/her ratings and take action if needed. This usually means that someone loses their rating status (their ratings no longer count, as described above).

I do think MOF makes a good point, the bogus flags count are a "stain" on good reviews (and yes, I consider his review on WOZ a good rating review) and for that reason I have decided to hide the amount of bogus flags from now on.

The amount of people who starred a review is still visible.

Additonally, I have added functionality to remove your bogus flag or your rating star:

Screenshot 2013-11-29 12.35.13.png

And when you remove it:

Screenshot 2013-11-29 12.37.09.png

Note, the above is just an example - There's nothing wrong with PDXMonkey's review there

#80 5 years ago
Quoted from PEN:

I see what you did there.
There is a big difference between finished and done.
Until the product is said to be finished or is no longer being produced I can not assume it is finished.

well i mean ok, but all snark aside, without exaggeration that can literally take years to happen. i mean new code is still being developed for Metallica (and WOZ).

#81 5 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

WoZ being rated a 1 is just fine and not bogus. 10 is fine as well.

It's not really. If you think about it, your rating is for other people. For the community, otherwise, why bother? Anyone rating a game for himself - or trying to manipulate others by way of his/her rating is being a narcissist. And truly engaging in mental masturbation. Rate fairly and with an open mind. While a 10 might actually be possible to some, is a 1 really possible? For someone who purports to love pinball? A 1? Really?

#82 5 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

is a 1 really possible?

Although a 1 rating is technically possible, I personally believe that it could never be given by anyone claiming to even remotely liking to occasionally play pinball. Even my most hated game ever scores way more than a 1.0

A 10 on the other hand should be possible, but I don't think one should have more than one rating of 10. After all, given the choice between your top 2 rated machines you would always be possible to pick one above the other, right?

Maybe these limitations should be imposed somehow, avoiding people to rate a game the same as another. Hmm, don't know if that would be even possible...

All of the above is all IMHO

#83 5 years ago
Quoted from whisper:

Really love reading your reviews my friend, thanks for taking the time to really go into depth which each machine you rate, and sharing it with the community, I remember one night I started reading your reviews and by the time I was finished it was like 6 in morning, and I didn't realize because they were so in depth and interesting, Keep up the good work, hope to read a few more in the future...cheers...

Thank you. You just made my day.

Now go play some more pin!!!

#84 5 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Don't mean to crush your soul but Diner is no 9.5!! I'm gunna have to hit you with a bogus rating on that one
"Just hilarious"

Correct. Diner is 9.9 and only because nothing is perfect.

#85 5 years ago
Quoted from maddog14:

Well, here is the thing about ratings. The condition of the machine greatly affects the players perception.
I fully plan on changing my rating of MM to a more positive one. The first time I played MM it was a piece of crap. My rating reflected that.
The second time I played MM it was pretty darned cool. Because the machine was in great playable shape.
There probably needs to be a rating added to the condition of the machine you played that you are basing your rating on.

That is one of the best comments I have heard lately. Condition of pin does greatly influence your ratings. In fact, if you were to take a HUO or restored game of any title and rate it, and then compare it back to ratings you did on same title at an earlier date, I guarantee you would rate the latter significantly higher.

1 week later
#86 5 years ago
Quoted from mof:

Sounds like Robin needs to put a tutorial up front on what the rating scale is, and what an "Average" rating is.
In the meantime, I'll try and figure out what an "Average" rating is in the system both from a math point of view, and from just clicking the buttons.

Since you love numbers i ran a simple average for you on your ratings. As of the time of this post you have rated 26 machines. When you add the final rating of each machine you get a score of 210.548. Divide that score by the number of machines you have rated (26) and you get 8.098 for you personal simple average. Since we seem to agree each person has a subjective rating, you rated WOZ below average by your standards.

Not saying it is a good or bad rating, just saying by your own standards it is not average as you tried to use numbers to justify your rating before. I am not sure why you started to post other than to justify your rating. The only reason to do that is if you know it is not valid so you are digging for others to agree with you.

#87 5 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

That is one of the best comments I have heard lately. Condition of pin does greatly influence your ratings. In fact, if you were to take a HUO or restored game of any title and rate it, and then compare it back to ratings you did on same title at an earlier date, I guarantee you would rate the latter significantly higher.

even more than that, I see ratings for some machines that are like "had this in my collection .. it was a maintenance nightmare. 4.0."

now, that is an honest and valid opinion ... but I don't think it's what the rankings are intended to reflect. the rating isn't "bogus" per se, although it is misguided.

ps - yes, my love for Black Hole and STTNG is showing

#88 5 years ago

I have one 10 for my favorite game. after that I try to score at least the first few to rank (in my profile) in order of how much I like the game.

#89 5 years ago

If 1 is not valid it should not be an option. IMHO as it is now 1 is legit, so is 10. Trying to thought police will not help TFA . If you don't want the lowest end of a scale used, eliminate the lowest score option. LOL.

#90 5 years ago

Just so there is no confusion, there is nothing remotely Likert about the rating system on Pinside. Likert scales require a relative change in the level of "agreement" (or other measured response) that coincides with a change in the numerical scale (i.e. an interval scale). There is no such presumption or even structure set up in the Pinside ratings, which are simply an "arbitrary" numerical assignment by the rater.

There is also no real problem with the current form of the ratings (numerically speaking) as long as everyone rates every game or at least a relative proportion of "high raters" and "low raters" rate each game. Of course, neither of these are likely.

6 months later
#91 4 years ago

Until the sea of WOZ Haters stepped up in mass to do everything possible to keep WOZ ratings down, I used to consider Pinside a credible place to learn about a machine. I just saw a 4.66 rating for WOZ. Come on…really? These IMO bogus ratings come complete with back-handed compliments and other bipolar perspectives. WOZ is full of sub 6 ratings that actually use the words AMAZING and IMPRESSIVE in the write-up. Face it folks, WOZ just redefined the pinball machine. It is OK for us to still love our old machines (I have 15 now including TZ and over 75 since collecting) but don't disrespect pinball, pinside's rating system, and JJP just because all of our old pinball machines just got older.

JJP -- If you are listening…keep up the great work and thank you for opening up a new chapter in the world of pinball.

Pinside -- I am not sure there is anything you can do to right the ship. Perhaps better analytics to detect the manipulation of ratings. WOZ, for example, has seen more rating manipulation than any other machine (cause it so drastically challenges everything we thought we knew about pinball) almost suggesting that its current 8.279 rating would normalize to around a 9.2 if delivered in the hey-day of the 90s. I suppose that's why a machine with no supply limits sells for nearly 2x what the other top machines sell for in scarce supply…hmmm…perhaps that says it all right there.

#92 4 years ago

get real scf. My low woz rating (yet to be updated) was on early code, if you think it played great in that state your ratings are bogus.. Everyone manipulates the ratings when they write their own thoughts in, heaven forbid someone thinks your grail pin stinks.
What in woz challenges anything I thought I knew about pinball?... cuz I don't see anything mind blowingly new.. I don't think pinball needs any fundamental change anyways.

#93 4 years ago
Quoted from Kneissl:

get real scf. My low woz rating (yet to be updated) was on early code, if you think it played great in that state your ratings are bogus.. Everyone manipulates the ratings when they write their own thoughts in, heaven forbid someone thinks your grail pin stinks.

You are a typical example of what is wrong with the rating system….and why its meaningless…...

#94 4 years ago
Quoted from scf:

Until the sea of WOZ Haters stepped up in mass to do everything possible to keep WOZ ratings down, I used to consider Pinside a credible place to learn about a machine. I just saw a 4.66 rating for WOZ. Come on…really? These IMO bogus ratings come complete with back-handed compliments and other bipolar perspectives. WOZ is full of sub 6 ratings that actually use the words AMAZING and IMPRESSIVE in the write-up. Face it folks, WOZ just redefined the pinball machine. It is OK for us to still love our old machines (I have 15 now including TZ and over 75 since collecting) but don't disrespect pinball, pinside's rating system, and JJP just because all of our old pinball machines just got older.
JJP -- If you are listening…keep up the great work and thank you for opening up a new chapter in the world of pinball.
Pinside -- I am not sure there is anything you can do to right the ship. Perhaps better analytics to detect the manipulation of ratings. WOZ, for example, has seen more rating manipulation than any other machine (cause it so drastically challenges everything we thought we knew about pinball) almost suggesting that its current 8.279 rating would normalize to around a 9.2 if delivered in the hey-day of the 90s. I suppose that's why a machine with no supply limits sells for nearly 2x what the other top machines sell for in scarce supply…hmmm…perhaps that says it all right there.

Maybe they can set up a WOZ fan club only ratings page where only ratings of 10 and higher are allowed
Anything less will simply not be tolerated! and when WOZ finally rates a perfect 10 you will realize it doesn't freakin matter and it never did.
Enjoy the games you love and try not to let other peoples opinions bother you.

#95 4 years ago

It's always cool to see a good 'ole thread necro'd.
-mof

#96 4 years ago

FNXKIPKFD2IBRXG.LARGE.jpg

Maybe these guys have a better idea about a rating?

#97 4 years ago

health-alert-youre-taking-crap-wrong-is-you-poop-properly.w654.jpg

I'm thinking that most of the ratings are done while doing this……..and the value is about worth what's in the bowl

4 months later
-1
#98 4 years ago

The ratings system and democracy have the same major flaw. Too many idiots can have a say. The world and the pinball top 100 would be such a better place if I would be supreme ruler.

#99 4 years ago
#100 4 years ago
Quoted from mof:

It's always cool to see a good 'ole thread necro'd.
-mof

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 11,500.00
From: $ 54.00
From: $ 42.00
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
ModFather Pinball Mods
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Minneapolis, MN
$ 12.99
$ 45.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Photos
8,600
Machine - For Sale
New York, NY
$ 16.95
From: $ 42.00
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 399.95
$ 42.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
ModFather Pinball Mods
From: $ 24.00
$ 55.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Photos
$ 120.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 40.00
Cabinet - Other
ModFather Pinball Mods
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Bensenville, IL
From: $ 40.00
Cabinet - Other
Rock Custom Pinball
$ 15.00
Playfield - Protection
Pin Mods
11,500 (Firm)
Machine - For Sale
St. Clair Shores, MI
There are 100 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside