A sub 6 rating sounds pretty bogus to me. Just sayin'.

A "7" would be "average" by the common measure, which I consider the school grading system. 7 would be a "C" - 70% out of 100 and considered "average".

A 6 would be a D...and anything under 6 a D minus, which is decidedly below average. Personally I think anything in the 5's could be considered an "F"...otherwise known as a failing grade.

Grade the game however you want, but rating WOZ a failure is just bat shit crazy talk. Your rating has a little bit of the short bus vibe to it. Calling you out on it has nothing to do with an "everyone gets a medal" mentality.

Lol, smiley, etc. Whatever blows your hair back. If you really didn't care you wouldn't post...and if you care enough to post you probably just want to draw attention to your rating. Which is "special".

Why do the ratings matter to anyone? Just curious as I don't understand.

Please don't interrupt this exercise in mental masturbation with a rationale question.

I don't think everyone uses "school grading". If you rank a machine "decent" across the board it's going to receive a 6.6.

Don't mean to crush your soul but Diner is no 9.5!! I'm gunna have to hit you with a bogus rating on that one
"Just hilarious"

Why? That could be fairly well thought out rating.

The issue is a 'bogus review' is now one that someone disagrees this, which leads it open to being more bogus that the review itself.

If you look at MM. Any recent review that was not 100% favorable is has been marked as bogus. I find most late B/W games to have boring artwork, hence have reviewed accordingly. Why it is now bogus to think the machine is ugly?

Like the ratings system itself, the bogus system is open to manipulation and since large sums of money are involved, people are trying to protect their assets and ego.

its like this guys is begging for attention cause he gave the WOZ a shitty rating, no one cares bro! I do think you are a bit dillusional though. (gave you just what you wanted)

A 5.92 rating puts WOZ in 279th place just above "Bugs Bunny Birthday Bash"....really?

No, to me you have to give WoZ props for things like art, sound, lighting effects etc.... I mean, let's take a generic pinball game like T2 if you say 6 or 7 for art or lighting effects than I believe WoZ has to be a 8 or 9 just because its so much more detailed and has more advanced sound and lights and animations.

Now if the ratings are only for how much do you like the theme or how much do you enjoy playing the game, that would be one thing, but the ratings cover things like: how does this pin integrate the theme? Or how are the sound or lighting or display? In many areas WoZ has to be 'well above average'

I think some people dislike Jack or dislike the theme of Woz so they jury rig the voting so it gets a 5.5 or whatever will sandbag the results.

Since the actual raw data is not displayed, we have no idea what you voted for what area of the game. For example if the question is theme integration, WoZ has to get a 8, 9 or 10. There is no way around that, if the question is art or lighting or animation or sound there is no way WoZ is below average. So if some criteria of WoZ is above average in order for it to score a overall 5.9 that means thing like rules or toys or fun to play have to be down in the 4's or whatever to drag the overall score down.

Also, the average voting typically does not go down to 1 (worst) that would be like a cardboard box full of rocks and 10 (best) so if you are rating WoZ 5.9 then to you it has to be one of the worst games.

if there are total of 2000 pin ever made and if the games were rated 1 best to 2000 worst ever, you would be putting WoZ in the bottom of the top half or some 800 games better than WoZ, at least that's the way I would read a rating with 4s and 5s across the board. As I said something like theme integration on WoZ is not any way below average has to be one of the best or in the high range so you need a lot of 4s in there if the whole rating on things like art or lighting or theme integration or sound are voted honestly.

My point being honest did you rate WoZ low in categories like theme integration or art or lighting effects or sound etc? If so, how can you say it does not integrate the theme in the range of 9 or 10? It can't be lower than that. That does not seem to be any debate.

The question is not if you like the theme, it's asking if the game incorperates the movie theme into the game, and WoZ seems to be everything but the kitchen sink including actual real movie clips, and every character from the movie, if that is not a 10 as far as theme integration I don't know what is.

Here's a good one

http://pinside.com/pinball/community/pinsiders/dragdaily12/ratings

Rates:
Freddy Nightmare on Elm St. 10 (10 for every category across the board)
Johnny Pnemonic 9.9
Tron 4.8
LOTR 2.6 rating has the 2 or 3 for ever category

How's that for a fair and honest reviewer?

And the problem is......nothing other than him/her having a different viewpoint to yourself.

I have learned long ago to not worry about how someone else rates a pin and just get what I want and like. Who cares if someone else doesn't like it as much. As they say "one mans trash is another mans treasure!"

No, things like art or sound or theme integration, no way LOTR is below average, that's like saying look here is a Porsche 911 turbo, most people think its above average in looks, power, performance, sound etc.. But i don't like German cars so I rate it 2.2 and it sucks in every category both subjective and objective. That's just wrong.

The ratings are not only about if you like a game, it asks if there is theme integration? Does LOTR have theme integration? Yes. Does LOTR have 2 or 3 for lighting or rules or art or sound? How is that a matter of opinion?

Something missed here, and not at the same time, is that ratings are subjective. Some people think Bride of Pinbot is a boring one shot game, while it didn't stay in my collection, I think it's better than some games out there. It seems a little too highly rated to me though when Doctor Who is way more fun. In this case, Art and Sound ratings override play and layout. That is just my opinion. With a rating system, any rating system, the way it is setup and calculated/weighted really impacts how it reflects people's opinions are measured.

Attacking the OP assuming he's trying to draw attention to his relatively low rating for WOZ seems as ridiculous as suggesting his rating is bogus. I've rated a game here by clicking the dots only to find he final rating number seemed low to how I would give it a one number rating if asked. Rating on 1 to 6 scale and then seeing a rating on a scale of 10 doesn't seem appropriate anyway. At any rate, the point here seemed to be more about the actual use of the Bogus flag and that is what the thread should be about, not WOZ or the OP.

Here's another "bogus" for you......

I only rate machines I like.

Well the BBBB artwork is better ........

be nice to do a 'paired comparison' ranking system and see how they compare. In that method you are presented with two games, and you pick which is "better". Obviously you need to have some level of knowledge of a game to make a decision, but that is true of the current system. This would at least for an individual get a clear ranking of the games they are qualified to rank. That can be combined with those of others to get a ranking that eliminates some of the variation in what I think a '6' (or 10) is and what someone else thinks it is. Ultimately this also gives an individuals ranked list greater accuracy then just 'rank your top 10'.

It could be set up that you select X of the top 100 games you are qualified to rank. With some explanation for what qualified means (e.g. you have played it more then X times, you have at minimum, a basic understanding of the rules/objectives of the game, etc.). The system randomly picks two games to present to you to pick which is better. It does this until all combinations are completed and a rank is generated. There are probably only a handful of people who are "qualified" to rank all of the top 100 games.

You would not need to complete your rankings in a single session, just like the current system. You could just pick a game you have played, and have the system then make you rank it against each other game you have previously ranked. Betting we would find for lots of folks, that between two games the game they ranked higher, is not the same they ranked higher when doing it on the rating scale.

I don't get it; why do people get so worked up over people having different personal opinions and tastes? We are all supposed to agree on which games are the best?

Thought police.

Well, here is the thing about ratings. The condition of the machine greatly affects the players perception.

I fully plan on changing my rating of MM to a more positive one. The first time I played MM it was a piece of crap. My rating reflected that.
The second time I played MM it was pretty darned cool. Because the machine was in great playable shape.

There probably needs to be a rating added to the condition of the machine you played that you are basing your rating on.

either that or you shouldn't rate based on playing a poorly set up game.

Not sure I could accurately rate a game I played on just one occasion. Artwork, sound sure, but rule set, probably not. I know the first time I played TSPP I could not understand why people thought it was so great, once I understood the rules of the game, my whole view of it changed.

I played a couple of games of WOZ at expo. While I can tell you I found the sound to be annoying and hard to understand, I don't feel I have played it enough to rate it fairly. I have some first impressions, but don't feel I have had enough time on it to rate it.

MB is another game I thought very little of the first time I played. The one I played was not in great shape and I did not really understand the rules. Once I did and got to play one without a credit dot, I gained a new appreciation for the game.

The condition of the machine is a very good point, most of us have played the same game and found it very different based on how it is tuned. I had a BK2K that was totally dialed in, and had people comment they had played it many times before, but that it was so much more enjoyable on my machine. Lots of people mad at me that I let it go.

That's like rating a Ferrari after driving it with a flat tire haha...silly kids..

Also to the OP, who F'n cares..rate a game a 1 or 10...it doesn't matter...

Yes, but at the time that was the best MM I had played. Since I did not have any other MMs available to play, that was all I had to go on.
The best you know is the best you have played. Not all of us have access to all the top quality A list games.
So if we dont play NIB, we can't rate a machine?
That would be why machine condition would be a nice rating addition.

All I know is the two best machines I played over the expo 2013 weekend was WOZ and MM. So there you go.

As someone who LOVES to write pinball reviews. I've got a few things to say. You have been warned... HA!

1) I see reviews as a representation of a person's pinball "Philosophy". Personally (as a person who loves pinball) I am all about the game within the box. Do I have biases... yes. Do I find games that exceed or alter my expectation, I certainly do. Especially older games from the 50's and even the 40's. I usually don't care for these games, but the more I seek out games to review, these are the ones that I am finding, playing and spending time with to put together an honest assessment. I am not starting to understand why some collectors focus on these decks. The oldest game in my collection is from 1963 and if I found a great playing game that was older, I'd seriously consider buying it. In line with my personal pin-philosophy, I have altered the importance of certain aspects of my own ratings (reduced the importance of the cabinet and increased the value of game play) to reflect this point of view.

2) I don't take anything that anyone says here personally. I love pinside and all the characters that inhabit it, but in the grand scheme of life, no one here has any real effect on my life. People that get their panties in a twist over things like this are very silly people and should be mocked for the fools they are. Part of this has to do with my own pinball journey through life. A while ago I earned the reputation for being an angry player. I'd take out my frustration on games. This got to the point where people would have to take me to the side and set me straight. I stopped getting invited to events because people believed I'd abuse their games.

I like my friends.
I had no excuses for my behaviour.
Real change had to come from within.
I work on it every day because every day I do, the further away from that emotional retard that I had let myself become.

This is what I see when I see people do things like this on pinside, or RGP, or IPDB or in real life. I see part of me that I really don't like. So I laugh at them as I laugh at myself. I forgive them for being having a low EQ as I do sometimes. I try to be the best I can to them, because that is what they usually want (good and real attention as compared to just any kind of attention). Lastly, I love them for who they are and that's that. I love you too. I sincerely try to practice that honest love to everyone I meet. Unless you are an douchenozzle, of course...

3) When I say things that are mocking or negative, I do it with a smile on my face. You know... as a joke. Get it? The more people get angry about things like this the funnier it is and the joke is on them. The joke will continue to be on them until they get it. You are not Joe Pesci in Goodfellas. You are a pinhead. Pinheads are big kids who play with big box toys. I have certainly have met a few characters in the pinball community. I even had one treat me really badly. But that was him, not me. Out of all the pinheads I have come across in my life I have NEVER met a mean pinhead. I have met some incredibly intense competitors, but they are not mean. They just really want to win so badly that they forget who they are in the process sometimes. Not that "I" have ever done something like that before. Nope. Not me. Ever. (Psssst... that was a joke.) In summary this string needs a review as only Caucasian2Step can do the voodoo that pinside loves, so well.

The Pros:
We are playing pinball.

The Cons:
We forget we are playing pinball.

The Takeaway:
Hey, it's only pinball!!! - Rudy

there is no spoon

I started ignoring the reviews (and I'd probably just like to delete my own at this point) when AVLE was getting piled on. I succumbed to defending the game which was probably not completely productive. I own it. I enjoy it. I hope that others might have the opportunity to try it to see if they have fun playing it. If they don't, oh well. Play something else. Have fun. That's all.

When money and ego start to matter more to you than the fun and friendship of the hobby, then it's time to hang it up.

The reviews were useful when I was a newbie. Then, they became an annoyance and a point of conflict. Now, I'll just just take honest comments as interesting but make up my own mind whether I like a game or not.

A bogus opinion would be giving something all 1's & 2's or all 5's. There is no perfect game, nor an absolutely terrible 1 rating game that has been professionally produced. Rating WOZ 5.744 and giving all of my justifications as to why I did so shouldn't really be marked bogus just because your opinion doesn't coincide with mine. If I had given it all 1's, that would be a different story.

I know WOZ is a high-quality pin, and JJP did a great job as a start-up. I commend them for their hard work on WOZ. It was meticulously constructed, the team made sure everything looked gorgeous and worked the way they wanted it to. I just personally can't stand the theme, did not entirely enjoy the layout, nor playing it over most other pins I've played, and the music, LCD screen animations/distractions, and sound effects drove me insane. I didn't even want to be near it after I played it a few times it bugged me that much. Agree or not, that is my opinion. Feel free to call me bat-shit crazy, that is your opinion and your right.

You had a point untill you started in on WOZ crap, then I quit reading. Its just getting old, from all directions.

I was just trying to give an example of a game people feel strongly about. Sorry that it rubbed you the wrong way somehow.

The problem is everyone has their own scales. Some would never give a 10 and rarely a 9, while others deem a 10 or 9 to fit in their book. It's really subjective.

Maybe a reviewer enjoys Bugs Bunny Birthday Bash more? Do you think there are enough people who enjoy Bugs more than WOZ to warp the rankings in a significant way?

Reviews here are strange compared to other hobby sites. On Boardgamegeek, for example, if a player isn't a fan of a game and rates it a 3.0, there isn't much questioning about their motive. They just didn't like it. Maybe they thought the art was poor or the theme didn't work for them or they had a bad playing experience or whatever else. There isn't a lot of pressure to rate a game at least "X" because it is OBVIOUSLY GOOD. The user's rating is supposed to reflect what that user thought of the game, and nothing else. If one guy thinks Twilight Struggle is crap it doesn't matter, because there are 50 people who think it's great.

Sure, there are bogus ratings, like if a designer says something bone-headed and gets piled-on, but for the most part, the negative and the positive balance out and the eventual rating gives a glimpse of how many players enjoyed their experience with the product.

I played WOZ at the Pinball Hall of Fame. I didn't care for the sound or the lighting. The art was well executed, but the animations on the LCD looked cheap and reminded me of a slot machine. To another person, the animations probably look great. Both of our opinions are valid. They would rate it higher than I would, some would rate it lower, and eventually we would discover how many people like the animations out of a given sample. That's the point of the user reviews. Removing all reviews that dissent from the norm doesn't improve your result, it distorts it.

Ratings are broke (and a joke), always have been, always will be.

There are no clear guidelines and no forced self regulation which means they will forever be flawed.

Why have 1 to 10 ratings if the top 100 are all within 1.5 points (some with as few as 15 ratings and some with as many as 1284)?

Hell the top 200 games are 6.9 or higher.
281 games currently in the system and then only span 5.659 to 8.906.

Force people to vote the entire spectrum and rank their games against each other. If people must use the entire specturm then any biasing will be restricted and fade away over time.

Forcing people to use the entire spectrum will get some spread, and thus actually create a reasonable measure (well as reasonable as any social science measure can be).

Rank 10 games and the worst game in the list should be a 1 and the best should be a 10, at intervals of 1 point.
Rank 20 games and the worst game in the list should be a 1 and the best should be a 10, at intervals of .5 points.

I can see giving a game 10 if it's you're holy grail but I've seen guys give a game a 1 or a 3 simply to keep it out of the top pins that is crap.

Who is removing all views? I disagree with the view WOZ should be ranked with Bugs, that all....folks!

Hey, i just picked up a Bugs Bunny and i like it. I put it right up with AFM.

Damn guys, just play a game before you buy it. I haven't checked out a single review of a game before buying one. Youtube reviews are good too. F'ing fanboys. Chill out.

I assumed that reviews marked as "bogus" wouldn't be included in the aggregate score. If they still are, then I suppose there isn't an issue.

It was not really directed at you persay. More at the op. There seems to be no end to the JJP/Stern arguments, its just getting tiresome to read the forum because of it. Its like a broken record on every other thread. No big deal though, I'm not mad. Its only pinball.

As a side note. I can not wrap my head around why anyone would want to rate a pin before software is done. If I had rated AC/DC after my first 20 or so games, It would be rated fairly low (the software was not done). Now I own the game. I still have not rated ACDC... It could even get another update. So far I think it is a great game but I need more time to rate it. In the end, who cares. Some people rate games with no clue what they are doing in the game besides bashing the ball around.

Rating themselves are bogus, just read the comments and take those opinions with a grain of salt!

How would the ratings look now if they were started over from scratch? So many of the reviews were done when recent pins weren't even out to compare to.

You can always go back and revise your rating.

Yep. Or you can chill out, not waste your time and wait untill its done, and you have more then a hand full of plays on a game. I have found quite often, that games I like right away are not allways great, and games I dislike right away end up some of my favorite.

How many people go back to change their rating?