What would have been awesome is instead of having that guy holding a cell phone as the main character, JJP decided to use a Julie Newmar look-alike instead.

dialed in has 3 flippers so it is superior

I wonder if you would be saying the same if you get your BM and the playfield clear is chipping up against the glass with nobody to go to but Stern which do have a warranty that is basically NO warranty and with no communication about the problem whatsoever.

I have a perfectly fine GBLE but every time I look at it I go inspect it for ghosting. Cannot help it. I begin to dislike it a lot. It is fun to play but it feels like a ticking time-bomb. After seeing the reveal of their "masterpiece" BM66 I decided to cancel my LE order. Just another hotwheels - copy paste - buy the art of a milkcarton machine. You ever counted how many times the SAME heads of the villains are on the LE including the playfield ??

Sorry, nothing personal to you, but I just cannot understand why Stern is being so cheap in this matter. I find it very immature and even insulting to their customers.

This poll has inherent bias and is clearly "rigged" in favor of JJP.

I share the same sentiment Rob. I backed out of my BMLE spot and have a deposit on Dialed In but am waiting for the standard price. Won't do 9k.

Yes it is, chip away, I would be with you if Sterns were falling apart at an alarming rate but besides the ghosting there hasn't been very much, not enough at least to cause an uproar in my opinion, the poll is very telling in that we all want a quality machine with lots of stuff and that Dialed In looks like its worth more money(not to me I think Batman LE looks amazing), fun and gameplay will win everytime, let it go Columbo the mystery has been solved, high prices should = high quality product. Thanks

Dialed In FTW!

Jody was just on CNN saying they'd only accept the results of the poll if Batman wins.

For arguments sake, here's the thing. At least 240 people think the LE is worth the $9500 price, OR at least willing to pay it. 80 people are willing to pay the SLE price at $15k (which i think is crazy but whatever floats a boat).

On the surface, DI looks like it offers more "value", depending on how you define "value", its a high quality JJP, a given

On the secondary market, let's see where the whole value things falls out. I predict a BM66LE will hold its value MUCH better than a DI.

240 limited versus an unlimited run of DI, iconic theme versus no theme. Let's just see what happens.

Every new NIB going forward is going to take a hit on the secondary market.

The ONLY $8k plus pin I'll ever buy in the future has to be "limited", less than 250, great theme and programmer.

An $8k GBLE on a Stern standard run is my peak price. That's why DI ain't making the cut, or any other pin

Classic!

Brilliant!

gj5f4 (resized).jpg

Do we actually know what makes the Limited "limited" in comparison to the Premium? If the topper and the armor are to be offered as accessories, does that bring us down to a piece of paper stuck to the back glass that says "Nora Clavicle and the Ladies' Crime Club" or "Home Dry Bat-cleaning Plant" and an autographed Topps trading card?

Jody sounds like a smart man.

I think I need to play Dialed In before making that claim. If we looked at every original theme in pictures before we played it and compared it to some licensed theme we would say the same thing.

The used machines that command the highest dollar today are original themes not licensed.

Neither, because no fawking game is worth anywhere close to 9k.

maybe not, but super rare games that only 5 are in existence. 9k is pretty damn cheap. Usually the ones I see that are 10 or less are 20k.

I'm not in on either but I've been watching and reading all these responses. There is no way I could justify spending $9k on any pin, heck I think $3.5k is my limit but I just don't have that much disposable income; however, if I did and price was no object I'd probably pick Dialed In. Reasons being, while the name is sort of weak, I like the idea of the original theme, it's a Lawlor game and JJP seems to build a quality machine.

One thing I don't quite understand is almost everyone seems to be saying $9k is a showstopper, and yet, I don't think TBL at $10k has gotten this kind of push back.

I also see people who buy a premium and then add enough mods, ie. shaker motor, powder coated armor, invisi-glass, color dmd, etc... to put it close to or above the $9k price point.

People are saying only Heighway is offering a fair price/value but their LE is $8150 not including the large display which is an extra $500. Not sure what a standard at $6500 with all the bells and whistles would price out at.

It pushed me back, so there!

TBL pricing pushed me back too. I was interested at $8.5k preorder, but at $10k -> no way.

There are a lot of people with 10+ games in their collection (including recent Sterns) who have said they cannot afford to spend $9k+ for a nib from Heighway, Stern or JJP. That tells me the asking prices are too damn high. Think about it another way, let's say this group of people have $25k - $50k - $75k tied up in pinball machines, so they are not affraid to spend money. But the value is not there for spending that much money on a pin, when there are hundreds of thousands of other pinball machines to choose from priced way less. If JJP is truely in it to win it, they would lower their pricing model by thousands and focus on capturing market share.

Neither Pin is worth 9K, let alone a 12.5K to 15K one.

Dialed in is 66 times better than Batman.

because TBL is more of a specialized item. It's not a mass produced item from a main manufacturer. It's kind of like Tesla and ford. If ford tried to pull the kind of prices Tesla did, they would get a big backlash. Since Tesla is more of a specialized company, they get away with that kind of shit.

I was out on TBL as well. And I think TBL has more going for it than Dialed in or Batman 66. If I had to pick between the 3 and could buy one for 6k. I'd take TBL over the other 2.

at 9k, there is no good value anymore. It's which one makes your asshole the least stretched out.

They get away with a lot shit is right. Now that Solar City is being rolled into Tesla, its the biggest taxpayer funded con in history.

And also a phenomenal stock "short" right now. They will never sell enough cars to make money and they will either be owned by Ford, GM or Apple in the near future. Their overinflated stock price has to burst first. Another Twitter stock in the making.

How many TBLs do you think they've sold? How many will they sell? A couple hundred? Dialed In will sell too, there are people who aren't particularly price sensitive. Question is how many?

I almost ordered a TBL at the pre-order price. Now that it's even higher it's a showstopper for me.

These prices hikes seem minuscule compared to the hikes in the Unaffordable Health Care act.

Can't wait to see how much the "marketplace" has for us in a few weeks. Aetna out here.

Employer mandate is set to crush small businesses like Stern and JJP

"Firms with 100 or more full-time equivalent employees (FTE) will need to ensure at least 70% of their full-time workers by 2015 and 95% by 2016. Small businesses with 50-99 FTE will need to start insuring full-time workers by 2016. The mandate does not apply to employers with 49 or less FTE."

-Most people here who bought Lebowski did so for $8500

-For those who bought it, it was a "dream theme". That has value that Dialed In doesn't offer.

I think Jody is just trying to insight violence amongst the Batman crowd when it does inevitably lose. Not to mention likely suppressing the Batman voters from even voting at all since they think the whole thing is rigged anyway.

Well - I am not sure, if somebody already stated it - Heighway can go with the lower price tag because the GBP lost heavily against US$ or € in the last 14 months. with getting an extra push due to the brexit vote.

GBP/US$ | 08/23/15 | 1.568
GBP/US$ | 10/21/16 | 1.223

That said - it is very honorable of Andrew to give this advantage to his international customers. This is a huge opportunity for him to get into the market with a super competitive price. But this is mostly because of economic/polical reasons and maybe also a bit of setting up a smart production line, an overall clever construction concept and smaller margins, maybe... don't know.

Nevertheless he obviously didn't make it into a poll in which the better value is the main issue

$9,000 or 9.000 € for a BM66 premium and a not yet published price in €, but most probably clearly more than 9.000 € for a Dialed-In cannot be decided by just comparing the hardware. For me - very personally - gameplay and fun are the reasons to perhaps sell machines in value of 9,000 to buy another one.

If you have not spotted it already, JJP.
They simply have a better mindset to provide a higher quality product.
Custom molded features for example for games as they are supposed to be inside a commercial grade pinball machine.
Basic game features that should be REQUIRED for maintenance and game construction.
You don't need a poll to figure this out.

Toys made for children and bat signal flashlights from Wal-Mart don't cost $5000 to install on playfields and cabinets. Stern games also continue to remove basic game features one at a time since 2012 such as lockbar mechs, rails, transformers, interlocks, silk screened cabinet artwork, real backglasses with mirroring, fuse panels, manuals and all sorts of nuances of you look carefully to increase profit margins. I am not insulting anybody's pinball buying intelligence here, but a lot of people simply don't see the changes or even care. We are past the time again harkening to Stern in the 2000s, and regressing backwards to times before BLY/WMS. I don't care what Stern charges in price, except all game's quality and construction should match the cost, which they currently do not. LOTR was chock full of Wal-Mart figures but did not cost $10K, and certainly not $15K. It cost $4000. TSPP cost $3600. That was one the high end of distributor cost. Even with inflation both games today sit around the $5000 mark or so, not considering collectibility.
Pretty soon we won't even have coin mechs like MMr did and be sold as "extras".
Many people may not have even known this little fact.
Maybe not even a coin box in the future.
Why not just remove the door entirely now?
I mean its is just "useless space" right if it is going into a person's home?

They are being relegated to non-commercial quality machines, but the price keeps rising out of sync with everything.

Consider IPB reproduction (not remake, BIG difference) of BBB.
Remember the build quality and care the Gene did to get the game right?

I don't have any problem with new owners spending $150K or more in one year on ten new games, but not turn around and ask for $1000-3000 more than than NIB cost a couple of months later, mods or not. That is just more artificial price inflation of a different color.
This is just nonsense for used games, no matter if they have 10 plays or not. These buyers may be the market, but certainly not the lifeblood that maintains the industry and hobby when times are lean.

Why is this important in comparison to the manufacturers you listed?

Stern are preying on the enthusiasm of these particular uninformed new pinball buyers, but not giving the proper quality they deserve. Most are not a part of ANY pinball forum in the entire world.

You only asked for comparison between these two manufacturers.
Both target new buyers, but one is doing a better job than the other.

For $9k I'd hope to get something like this.

Now that's what I'm talkin about.

I think you can get that for a lot less than 9k......you won't be able to keep though.

They don't have the capacity to push out that many machines. Lower number of pins with a higher profit percentage. They can't produce enough pins fast enough now to keep up with demand. Between WOZ, TH, and soon Dialed In, they win sell all machines made for at least a couple of years. Then the next one comes along. Until they make more pins faster (like add another full assembly line) they have a sustainable business plan. They just need to keep selling the quantity of pins that they do. It's a business. Maybe Stern sees a slow down in the market and likes that business model too.

But as a wishful buyer, I find these prices really frustrating too. So ... no one else buy one so that they will lower the cost for me.

Isn't the part of the reason you pay 9K?

I agree that Dialed In looks more like a 9K game but I would still rather have BM66.

frabz-SO-PUT-THAT-IN-YOUR-PIPE-AND-SMOKE-IT-dd93a1 (resized).jpg

Yet you would never buy one to put out on route. Period.

And you also don't need a poll to see what people are buying.

GB, TWD, and GOT....Drop the F ing mic

I am surprised that so many people care about the theme of a machine. It does absolutely nothing for me. Before I sink serious $$ into a new/used machine I look at:
1. Is it fun to play and will it be fun to play a year from now? For that I actually need to be able to get a few games in before I can decide. It would never cross my mind to pre-order a game I never played before.
2. Is the quality good? I'd rather play pinball than fix pinballs even so I got pretty good at it. Just had to fix the snake on my Metallica and the optos on my Star Trek. My older Bally and Williams don't require as much attention.
3. Is it worth the money? Can I get something equally fun in a good condition for a lot less?
4. It the artwork nice? Not a must (Demolition Man, Last Action Hero are ugly but fun) but all things being equal I would opt for the nice art package.
Numbers 1 - 3 are deal makers or breakers. At current price tags its unlikely that B66 or DI make the cut. There are simply better values out there. I admit that I haven't had a chance to play either one. Given the price its unlikely to encounter either at the local arcade. If I can't "test drive" I don't but, it's as simple as that. Maybe I get totally blown away after playing and change my mind, but that's highly unlikely.

Exactly!

Not to mention you can get a premium version of BM66 for $7600.00, significantly less than $9k.

Not many people would pay $9k for an ugly hooker and no blow.

JJP doesn't seems to have many problems pumping out 10 games a day. As for potential quantities - say they sell 2000 DILE, But if they wanted to make 6000 games, they could have lowered price of standard to $7k. That is my guess anyways. So lower the margin and sell more games and capture more market share. JJP should be trying to get into more homes, bars etc so as to spread the love. Another benefit is it would likely put tremendous pressure on Stern to lower their new prices now and keep them there so as to look competitive.

Investigating using your 10 per day number (likely close with downtime here and there for sometimes waiting for supplies that are late):

6000 games / 10 per day = 600 working days (maybe 2-3 years) most at a lower profit margin (SE more than LE)
3000 games / 10 per day = 300 working days (maybe 1.25-2 years) likely 50% or more at a higher profit margin - then move on to the next pin. This is probably close to current production.

Don't get me wrong ... I'm with you in wanting the pin prices to go back to where they were - no argument there. If they can pump out 20-30 pins a day ... maybe with two "full" assembly lines with different pin themes on each and staggering new releases, THEN they can go after market share. I'm not an accountant so I don't know if there is a bigger overall profit there. Investment people want percentages of return more than quantity of return - baffles me, but that seems to be the norm. If someone can show them a business case where they can make more profit with two "full" production lines realistically with minimum additional overhead and investment, I'm sure Jack (and company) would be interested. Now that they are getting back on their feet, I'm sure they are looking at future options and planning. Maybe they will go that direction at the start of JJP#4.