(Topic ID: 26228)

Blowing Fuses

By gmohrs

11 years ago


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  • 99 posts
  • 15 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 11 years ago by blownfuse
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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There are 99 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 11 years ago

Hi everyone,
Brand new here and brand new to pinball ownership. I just recently took in a 1972 Williams Gulfstream machine. Got it home set it up. Cleaned it up and plugged it in. Flipped the switch - and nothing. Took a look around and found a blown fuse. Thought I might get away with the easiest repair ever. Nope. I replaced the fuse and turned it back on. There was a loud buzz for about a half a second and the fuse blew.

Now I know this could be happening for any number of reasons, but does anybody have a suggested starting point? Is there something common or obvious that I should look for? Any advice on where to get started (already read the guide posted here), is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

#2 11 years ago

Sorry need much more info. Could be any number of things. Good starting point is to get the manual (online) and figure out what the fuse is for and then check everything on that line for shorts - might be something loose or touching something it should't.

#3 11 years ago

Oh - and welcome to Pinside! You'll be a master tech in no time.

#4 11 years ago

Another common thing is to check the manual for the correct fuse amperage in that slot, possible someone put the wrong one in there and that's why it's blowing.

#5 11 years ago

It's a short, hence the sound.

#6 11 years ago

Was okay before you moved it ?

Then go over your work and anything that might have changed in the move. Pinched wires, things shorted to metal, stray screws or washers get into places they shouldn't be.

Lift the playfield and look along the edges underneath for wires or coils close neough to short to cabinet stuff when lowered.

LTG

#7 11 years ago

Wow. Thanks for the quick responses! I figured the problem would be a little too vague, but just hopefully check to see if there was a quick diagnosis. Good suggestions from you guys.

The machine had been sitting in a dusty garage for many years before I got it. The previous owner said that it was working. But the first time I switched it on, there was no buzz. Just nothing but a dim hum. So I'm guessing that that fuse was blown before I moved it. Still a great idea just to pop it open and look for anything out of place that could cause a short. I'll look for the manual online.

Thanks for making me feel welcome!

#8 11 years ago

Hi and welcome to pinball addiction!

I am new to this site as well, just floated over from RGP which I have been at for a year but have been in the hobby for over a year now.

Currently I am shopping out a Gulfstream which should be up and running in November.

Get yourself a owners manual and a schematic from "Pinball Resource" to start if you do not already have them. You will be blind working on your machine without these.

Best way to get these old machines working 100% is to clean everything and gap switches as needed, but I suggest you buy a pinball repair manual first to get you familiar with what and what not to do and get yourself a TOP 1 DVD on EM Repairs a must for the new guy.

http://www.pinrepair.com/top/

Have Fun!

Ken

#9 11 years ago

Welcome. For starters, since you just brought the game home and set it up, check the jones plugs to be sure they are plugged in correctly. This can start an instant short. Also inspect the relay switches down inside the game for a loose screw or something metal across a switch. You can also try to narrow down the problem by unplugging the playfield from the game, put in another fuse and turn the game on. If the fuse still blows, you'll know the problem isn't on the playfield and not waste any time looking there. If the fuse doesn't blow, the problem could be on the playfield or inside the game due to the way the game circuit paths are wired. This will require more detective work on your part.

#10 11 years ago
Quoted from gmohrs:

Took a look around and found a blown fuse

Which fuse is blowing?

This will give us a clue to where to go next. If there is nothing to indicate which fuse, take a photo and post here. You can upload photos below where you write text.

Welcome to Pinside, we need more EM Pinheads here.

#11 11 years ago

Welcome to PinSide and to the GulfStream club. EM Pinman above has one and so do I. You should be able to get lots of help.

Got schematics? That is the first thing you need.
Checked out the EM section of www.pinwiki.com? That's next on the list.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#12 11 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

PinSide and to the GulfStream club. EM Pinman above has one and so do I.

Hope all three of you have rated this machine in the TOP100 EM.

#13 11 years ago
Quoted from Chrisbee:

Hope all three of you have rated this machine in the TOP100 EM.

LOL!! I'm laughing because none of us can rate it yet because even Chris Hibler doesn't have his working, Even funnier is that I bought some parts from Chaz up in Canada who has a Gulfstream and he didn't have his working either, so that makes 4 of us! LOL!!

That rating thing will have to wait a bit unfortunately.

Ken

#14 11 years ago

Here is a photo showing the fuse that is blowing. It's the second one from the bottom. There was a 15amp fuse in there and that's what I replaced it with.

blown_fuse.jpgblown_fuse.jpg

#15 11 years ago
Quoted from gmohrs:

Here is a photo showing the fuse that is blowing. It's the second one from the bottom. There was a 15amp fuse in there and that's what I replaced it with.

Cool, you found the fuse. Now find what is shorted and blowing it.

Go over everything involved in the move and anything that may have also moved in the move.

It wasn't blowing before you moved it - so something went wrong in the move.

Not necessarily something you did, more something isn't right now.

LTG

#16 11 years ago

Thanks. I'm actually not convinced that the problem just started after the move, even though the previous owner said it was working before he stored it. My reason for that is, when I first plugged it in and flipped it on for the first time, there was only a barely detectable hum that came from the machine. After I found the blown fuse, and replaced it. I switched it on and there was a loud buzz for less than a second that I did not hear the first time I tried it. I haven't found a schematic for this machine yet. Other than the obvious loose nut, or screw that could be causing the short, I'm not sure what I'm looking for yet. Getting that DVD that was mentioned earlier would probably be a good idea for me. I have rewired an old jukebox before, but these switches are a whole new animal to me.

#17 11 years ago

Great, now we all know that it is the 24 V fuse, look for a coil with burnt paper to start with,In the cabinet, under Playfield and in the back box. Then Coils where the Tabs (Where the wire are soldered to) that are touching. Wire where the insulation is damaged.

#18 11 years ago

Thanks, Chrisbee. I took a close look at the coils and I found something a bit suspicious. I've attached a photo of the right flipper coil. A looks a little singed to me. The left flipper coil looks to be aftermarket, while the right coil looks to be original.

Also, found on Pinwiki:
"Williams silicon bridge rectifier:
The function of the rectifier and capacitor is to convert the alternating current (AC) to direct current (DC), supplying DC to the bumpers, kickers, etc. The bridge rectifier would typically never need replacing as it is rated well over the voltage and current requirements of the components it supplies. If, however, the 15 amp 24 volt fuse on the mechanism panel opens, it could be due to a faulty rectifier. Disconnect the AC input to the rectifier, replace fuse, and recheck. If the 10 amp fuse located next to the rectifier opens, check all DC components I.E. bumpers, kickers etc. for shorts."

#19 11 years ago

Replacement parts ordered. Now onto cleaning and waxing the playfield. Thanks for the collective guidance thus far.

#20 11 years ago

That coil look fine, Meter the winding see if you get. Should be like 5-10 Ohms on the thick wires, 50 – 80 Ohms on the thin ones.

#21 11 years ago

Darn. I was hoping that I had found the short just based on visual inspection. I need to get my hands on a meter again, I guess. How do I check the rectifier?

#22 11 years ago
Quoted from gmohrs:

How do I check the rectifier?

Four diodes in there, four legs. Check each diode.

LTG

#23 11 years ago

With all my poking around under the playfield, I completely overlooked something wrong with the coin mech, that was affecting the switch there. I've uploaded some photos. The first one is how I found it. The second is how it looks when I put the thing arm back in the slot. Third shot is of the other mech, that looks OK to my novice eyes.

coin1.jpgcoin1.jpg coin2.jpgcoin2.jpg Coin3.jpgCoin3.jpg

#24 11 years ago

Scratch that. Set the arm & cam back to the correct position. Still blew the 15 amp fuse.

#25 11 years ago

The point of the fuse is to protect the wires from burning. Somewhere on your machine there is a short and you need to find it.
What we know. The power line from the wall to the transformer is fine as you are not blowing the line fuse. The lighting circuits are fine as you not blowing the lighting fuse.
It would be an advantage if you have the schematic and a multimeter.
The first thing to happen with your machine after you turn it on is to energise the Lock Relay. This may happen as soon as you turn on the power or after you press the left flipper button(this is where the schematic helps). With your Multimeter set to ohms (200 ohms) and the machine OFF. Connect one test lead to the fuse that blows (Good fuse installed) and the other to the coil on the Lock RE, you should read 100 ohms. NOTE the lug on the coil should be the one that go off in the wire harness(. I think the wire colour is Black/red), not the lug where the wire goes back to the relay switches. Report back what you get.

#26 11 years ago

Let's also try narrowing down where the short is.

Take the playfield off and turn the machine on.

If the fuse doesn't blow the issue is on the playfield.

You can also unplug the backbox and see if the fuse blows.

If both back box and play field are unplugged you can assume that the short is on the bottom panel.

--Jeff

#27 11 years ago

I had given this some thought, so go with Jeff here, but also unplug the Coin Door too! This will give us a reduced area to review, if there is no fuse blow then we can move away from the Lock RE and Game Over RE. and other bits.

I’ve been looking at a schematic for FAN-TAS-TIC, a machine much like yours. There are 5 fuses 3 of them 15 amp, make sure of which circuit we are working on.

#28 11 years ago

Hey there. First of all, thanks to you guys for sticking around and helping me narrow this down. Finally bought myself a multimeter (I always thought that they were much more expensive). The first thing that I wanted to check was the suspicious right flipper coil. The meter went nuts - never settling on a value, but just jumping around or giving no value instead. The left coil settled in with a reading of 1.1. I checked the rest of the playfield coils and they all settled in with a constant value. Re-checked the right flipper a few times with similar results - meter goes a bit nuts.

I'd like to check the coil on the Lock RE as suggested by Chrisbee, but I'll need some help finding it.

Thanks,
Greg

#29 11 years ago

OK, tried what you guys suggested and I think you guys have helped me narrow this down, quite a bit. I unplugged the playfield alone first. Flipped it on and just as before, it only gave a loud buzz, but this time it didn't blow the fuse. Next, I unplugged the coin door. This time I was finally able to see the machine's backboard light up. Cool. It was showing that is was in tilt. So I plugged the playfield in again and for the first time I see the whole machine lit up. Really cool. Tried the flippers to test my suspicion, and neither were working immediately remembered that it was in tilt. Hit the red play button, and the things blows the same fuse - possibly due to the fact that the flippers are "live" again? Possibly two shorts here? One is perhaps the flipper and somewhere in the coin mech?
I'll do that Lock RE test that was suggested and post the results.

#30 11 years ago

Very hard to get an accurate reading on a flipper coil because it has to sets of windings, one for low power and one for high.

If you want to do a test for a shorted coil simply un-solder the two black wires on one of the lugs of the flipper coil, turn on the machine and see if your fuse blows. if it does not blow then that is not your problem, solder the wires back then continue searching.

Another place to check is your Pop bumper switches as the switches there tend to break a lot and can cause a fuse to blow as the coil can get stuck on the burn/short as that was the problem with my Williams Stardust I just bought.

Note: Moderator Please list this thread in the EM section as well for help. Thanks.

Ken

#31 11 years ago

The reading on the coin door coil was 36. Test connecting the coin mech coil (Lock RE?) and the fuse gives erratic results on the multimeter. Went through the steps again, just unplugging the playfield. Same result. Game is back in tilt mode. The game is leveled and the tilt plumb is centered. The loud buzz in coming from the coil that knocks the outside cabinet, and the fuze does not blow. Disconnect the coin door, reconnect playfield and get full lights - no buzz, but in tilt status.

#32 11 years ago

remember the whole idea of that loud buzzing relay on the coin door is so if someone drops a coin in the pin with the power off he gets his coin back - spring return keeps the coin mechs. directed to the return slot /door.
Under power the sol. now lets the coin mechs. do there thing starting/adding credits or rejecting slugs or anything else tried to cheat the system.
On the home front we dont really need it and most ppl will disconnect it anyway.
I had a mind melting loud one on a 74' GTB. Soccer game once - ordered a new coil cleaned and did what I could to no avail still drove you crazy ,ended up just unsoldering the one side.

#33 11 years ago

I'm also not sure what a reading of 1.1 on the left flipper means. I do remember playing these games and sometimes having a strong flipper on one side and a weak one on the other. Would you recommend a replacement of both sides even if only one side is suspect?

#34 11 years ago

Is the coil you're talking about here the knocker coil? I've seen those melted on the inside of the coil before on Williams games. Have you gone around and checked all the coils for free movement of the plungers yet? If you find one without movement, that could be your problem coil. Then you'd have to figure out why it over heated.

Quoted from gmohrs:

The loud buzz in coming from the coil that knocks the outside cabinet, and the fuze does not blow.

#35 11 years ago
Quoted from gmohrs:

I'm also not sure what a reading of 1.1 on the left flipper means. I do remember playing these games and sometimes having a strong flipper on one side and a weak one on the other. Would you recommend a replacement of both sides even if only one side is suspect?

Once again, You cannot test the Flipper coils with a multimeter.

Quoted from EM-PINMAN:Very hard to get an accurate reading on a flipper coil because it has to sets of windings, one for low power and one for high.

If you want to do a test for a shorted coil simply un-solder the two black wires on one of the lugs of the flipper coil, turn on the machine and see if your fuse blows. if it does not blow then that is not your problem, solder the wires back then continue searching.

If the flipper coils work leave them alone until you get the machine running then if you have a weak Flipper you can just go from there with some other solutions for that.

Ken

#36 11 years ago

Ok. Thanks Ken. I'll stop worrying about the flipper coils for now. So, I disconnect the coin door. Re-connect the play field, so I can at least show my son what the machine looks like with the lights on. Once again, still in tilt mode. So I tell him he can at least shoot the ball onto the play field even though the pop bumpers and flippers won't work. I put the ball into the chute. He launches it. The ball bounces around and when it comes to rest at the bottom, the fuse blows again.

#37 11 years ago

Check your Outhole (hole the ball rests in when it drains) and trough switch (ball rolls over this when kicked out of the Outhole going to the Shooter lane) below the Playfield. Look for wires disconnected that may be touching things it should not. Anything out of place or look funny?

Start with that.

Ken

#38 11 years ago

Also look at your tilt switches and tilt relay.

Theres going to be the tilt bob, the rolling tilt above it, the door slam switch,
a slam switch on the bottom panel and possibly one on the playfield.

#39 11 years ago

Thanks again, Ken. Took a look at the out hole and the switch that's activated when the ball rests there. No obvious signs of anything wrong there. Soldering looks good. Switch looks good. No foreign objects where they shouldn't be.

#40 11 years ago

There is a channel above the tilt plumb, that has a contact at the end. Looks like a ball would go in there or something. Is that the rolling tilt? If so, should there be something in there? I'll poke around and look for the other switches you mentioned.

#41 11 years ago
Quoted from gmohrs:

. Looks like a ball would go in there or something. Is that the rolling tilt?

Yes thats what im talking about. Normally a ball goes in there. when it rolls back it activates the switch. I cant remember if the switch is NO (Normally Open) or NC (Normally Closed) but you should be able to tell by looking closely

--Jeff

#42 11 years ago

Here are a couple of photos. I can't tell if the rolling tilt switch is open or closed. Sorry it's a bit out of focus.

rolling_tilt.jpgrolling_tilt.jpg slam_switch.jpgslam_switch.jpg

#43 11 years ago

It the tilt light on when you disconnect the coin door and the playfield?

how is the slam switch on the bottom mech board?

#44 11 years ago

OK i also need to back up a bit.

Sounds like multiple issues.

1. Game is in Tilt Mode
2. Flippers cause fuse to blow
3. OutHole cause fuse to blow

is this correct?

#45 11 years ago

By the picture it looks like your tilt ball mechanism is fine except that you are missing the ball which would roll up against the normally open "NO" switch, so no problem there as far as a short.

More fun stuff to check.

1) Check your "Outhole Relay" switches in the bottom of the cabinet. How do the switches look? any wires touching others that should not? how does the coil look? If coil is burnt looking take off 1 wire and test with Multimeter (MM).

2) Check the Coin Door Coil. Is is burnt looking? Take off one wire test with Multimeter (MM) if it is.

3) Check the Lock Relay in the bottom of cabinet. Is it burnt looking. If so take off 1 wire and test with MM as well.

4) Is your Tilt Plumb Bob touches the sides of the ring around it at any time? if it is adjust Plumb Bob (slide down un-screw to loosen). Plumb Bob should never touch the ring unless you tilt while playing a game.

In general, Looking for shorted coils and wires touching.

Start with this and let us know.

Ken

#46 11 years ago

Make sure you check that rectifier.

Here's how:

http://www.highlandelectrix.fsnet.co.uk/repair/bridge.html

#47 11 years ago

Thanks again. Both coils and switches look good. Tilt plumb is centered and not touching the ring. The only coil that looks burnt is the right flipper coil. When you say remove one wire and test, you mean I should unsolder one of the leads? Where do I put the positive and negative leads from the multimeter?

#48 11 years ago

Correct. Game is in tilt mode. I can clear it, but the moment I do, the fuse blows. I can replace the fuse, unplug the coin door, and the game will light back up, but back in tilt mode again. Game is leveled and the plumb is centered and not in contact with outer ring. It can stay like this until I reset by pressing the start button, after which the fuse blows again, or if the ball reaches the out hole, which also blows the fuse.

#49 11 years ago

Here are the readings that I got from the rectifier.

With leads touching #1 & #2 - 2.2
With leads touching #2 & #3 - .4
With leads touching #1 & #3 - 2.2

With leads touching #1 & #4 - no reading
With leads touching #2 & #4 - no reading
With leads touching #3 & #4 - no reading

rectifier.jpgrectifier.jpg

#50 11 years ago
Quoted from gmohrs:

you mean I should unsolder one of the leads?

Yes. Just one side that has the black wires on the end lug.

No testing with the MM, just leave the wire off, make sure it is not touching anything (tape it if you have to) and then start a game with a new fuse and see if it blows. If it does your flipper coil is not the problem then the search continues.

Also check "Game Over Relay - both coils" , "Coin Relay", "Reset Relay" looking for the same things I talked about before. Also check in general all other relays in the bottom of the cabinet.

If you are confident all looks well you can then check for loose/broken wires under the Playfield.

Try that next.

Remember take your time, it is not a race, get a good light and a magnifying glass for close up inspections. Hand held mirrors are also handy. EM's are mainly fixed with the eyes, and a meter once in a while. It generally takes me 100+ hours depending on the machine for a full shop out.

Sometimes a problem can be overlooked the 1st time around inspecting as there can be other things in your way hiding the issue. Go over areas again that are congested with parts, wires, etc. to make sure nothing is missed.

As far as the bridge Rectifier, it is rare on an EM that they go bad, like a transformer, so I am thinking that is not your problem either, but if you wish you can un-plug the Rectifier (tape the wires so they do not touch anything) get a new fuse and start a new game and if that blows, then that is not your issue.

Now may be a good time to invest in the fuse stock market too.

Quoted from EM-PINMAN:

Get yourself a owners manual and a schematic from "Pinball Resource" to start if you do not already have them. You will be blind working on your machine without these.

Ken

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