(Topic ID: 257993)

Blowing F104 & F105 On Start-up

By Biglouie

4 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

pasted_image (resized).png
Screenshot 2019-12-23 20.47.01 (resized).png
Screenshot 2019-12-23 07.26.07 (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
2019-02-02 14_20_45-WPC ribbon cable to reseat - Paint (resized).png
2019-12-22 11_18_03-Blowing F104 & F105 On Start-up _ Tech_ Modern games _ Pinside.com (resized).png
-1
#1 4 years ago

Hi all, hopefully someone can help me, moving this here from another thread at suggestion of pinsiders.. Thanks Pin_Guy and PinballManiac40 for the heads up. I have found a lot of F104 and checking for shorts on solenoids. This is slightly different?

I recently had cause (I shouldn't have done this) to remove the IC on U13. I broke it on removal (obv), and have a replacement. That doesnt work either, so I have no sound at all currently, another a story. But....

...after carrying out this process, I turned the machine on and F104 and F105 immediately blew. Replaced, checked continuity at J107, didnt find any, (which I am assuming is a good thing in this case), as no solenoids are shorted? Restarted, blew again.

I have done a visual check, as far as I can tell there is nothing obvious touching brackets etc, but I wasn't anywhere near the playfield for the sound "fix", I reseated data cables and 2 plugs on the sound board only. As J107 shows no shorts, I feel like thats ok. So I need to keep looking.

If I pull J107, machine fires up, no fuses blow.

I am wondering why it blows both F104 and F105, seems strange to do both? Suggests something is wrong with both High and Low solenoid circuits at the same time.

I'm a newbie, this is my first pin, the learning curve is turning out to vertical I bloody love pinball now tho...

If anyone has any suggestions it would be brilliant.

#2 4 years ago
Quoted from Biglouie:

I recently had cause (I shouldn't have done this) to remove the IC on U13. I broke it on removal (obv), and have a replacement. That doesnt work either, so I have no sound at all currently, another a story.

U13 on which board? And what problem were you changing it for?

#3 4 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:U13 on which board?

and what game?

#4 4 years ago
Quoted from ccbiggsoo7:

and what game?

2019-12-22 11_18_03-Blowing F104 & F105 On Start-up _ Tech_ Modern games _ Pinside.com (resized).png2019-12-22 11_18_03-Blowing F104 & F105 On Start-up _ Tech_ Modern games _ Pinside.com (resized).png

#5 4 years ago

With all you are having issues with, reseat this ribbon cable and be sure that it is not off by one row and you have no bent board pins.

2019-02-02 14_20_45-WPC ribbon cable to reseat - Paint (resized).png2019-02-02 14_20_45-WPC ribbon cable to reseat - Paint (resized).png

#6 4 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

U13 on which board? And what problem were you changing it for?

U13 on the sound board. I was testing it with a new chip from a buddy, to see if it was this chip causing an annoying, random sound that the machine makes. I've just found a forum post from the guy I bought the machine from, trying to solve that issue, a few months back. I guess he never did solve it and just sold it on to me, marvellous...

#7 4 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

With all you are having issues with, reseat this ribbon cable and be sure that it is not off by one row and you have no bent board pins.
[quoted image]

Thanks for the reply on this. I had that cable off and reseated it at all the points., I have checked a few times and its in the right place and the pins are in the connector. It was actually after I did this (and reseated the other connectors on the sound board, J501, 502, 503) that I then had the fuses blow immediately...They all appear to be in correctly...

I'll go and give it another once over now and triple check though I need the new IC for U13 MPU68B09e, as i have a broken one and one NOS that isnt a known worker, and isnt working now.

#8 4 years ago

Its very uncommon to blow a pair of fuses with a single failure; as PinballManiac40 was mentioning, having a data cables hooked up wrong can cause weird problems; however, when I see two HV fuses go at the same time I immediately think that something is mis-wired.

Lets say at some point i the games history, someone accidentally connected one of the high power coils under the playfied to the low power source, or the either way around...it doesn't matter which as in either instance this would create a bridge between the two circuits and half the combined current of the high and low power solenoids would flow through each fuse and everything will operate perfectly...until there is a malfunction which would then cause BOTH fuses to blow.

The check is simple, remove both fuses and check the resistance between the fuse holders on the load side...there should be no continuity between them, if there is then correct this before you continue troubleshooting.

If this checks out AND the ribbon cables are all on correctly, pull your CPU board out, place it on a hard flat surface and press down firmly on the ASIC to make sure its fullt seated in its socket; I personally do not recommend doing this in the machine as the ASIC has no support and the very thin traces on the PCB can crack when the board is flexed.

#9 4 years ago

ok Pin_Guy I'm on it. Thanks, I really appreciate this

When you say load side? is that the bottom of the fuse holders?

#10 4 years ago

If I check between the bottom of the two fuse holders, I get continuity...

That not good...

#11 4 years ago

The side closest to the connectors.

#12 4 years ago
Quoted from Biglouie:

If I check between the bottom of the two fuse holders, I get continuity...

This is correct, all three 50V circuits are derived from the same source.

#13 4 years ago

So we have continuity between 104 and 105 and that's correct? I had understood from your initial response that we didn't want that. Or maybe I checked the wrong thing?

Anyway, black on 104 and red on 105 of my meter, gives me a buzz out..

#14 4 years ago
Quoted from Biglouie:

I had understood from your initial response that we didn't want that. Or maybe I checked the wrong thing?

Yes on the source side as these are physically connected together on the power board

No on the load side, these are the three individual circuits that leave the power driver board and each is independently fused; there should be no connection between these circuits with the fuses removed.

#15 4 years ago
Quoted from Biglouie:

ok pin_guy I'm on it. Thanks, I really appreciate this
When you say load side? is that the bottom of the fuse holders?

Sometimes you can visually follow the traces to see what connects where. The line side is common and the load sides are separate (or should be).

It is really helpful having a manual with the schematics for helping to understand what goes where.

These are my favorite threads as we have helpful pinsiders with good approaches.

#16 4 years ago
Quoted from Platypus:

Sometimes you can visually follow the traces to see what connects where. The line side is common and the load sides are separate (or should be).

It is really helpful having a manual with the schematics for helping to understand what goes where.

These are my favorite threads as we have helpful pinsiders with good approaches.

Very true,
This will help:

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#17 4 years ago

Start the machine with the coin door open. Once it boots up, close the coin door. If it doesn’t blow the fuses, it could be a transistor on one of the boards affecting the blanking circuit.

When you power it on, the D19 led on the MPU should illuminate for a few seconds and then go out. If you don’t see D19 light up, that’s the issue you need to start tracing.

#18 4 years ago
Quoted from Platypus:

helpful having a manual

I think pinball manuals and schematics are one of my new favourite things...I've fixed a few very minor things on this machine from working and tracing back on the manual.. VERY satisfying...

Screenshot 2019-12-23 07.26.07 (resized).pngScreenshot 2019-12-23 07.26.07 (resized).png
#19 4 years ago
Quoted from Pinless:

When you power it on, the D19 led on the MPU should illuminate for a few seconds and then go out. If you don’t see D19 light up, that’s the issue you need to start tracing.

D19 lights, few seconds, then off. 20 starts flashing once 19 is out. D21 Is on from the start and stays lit.

Ive noticed that on the powerboard, LED3 is on constantly, and manual says this ought not to be. Seen a bit of conflicting info about that and that it isnt important? All the DIPs are set to on, in the bank below the LEDS...

I'll move on to the next step..I've quadruple checked that data cable now, its defo in all the right places, unless its cracked a raxce behind with it being pushed in?!

More to follow.. This 1000 sound playing randomly has alot to answer for!

Thx for continued help...

Screenshot 2019-12-23 20.47.01 (resized).pngScreenshot 2019-12-23 20.47.01 (resized).png
#20 4 years ago
Quoted from Pinless:

Start the machine with the coin door open. Once it boots up, close the coin door. If it doesn’t blow the fuses, it could be a transistor on one of the boards affecting the blanking circuit.

Phase 2 complete, no fuses blown. J107 is plugged in, coin door open, new 3a fuses in place, power on, close the door...didn't blow..turned off with door closed turned on..didn't blow..

Is there a way to test this data cable do you think? Could the data cable not being in right, cause fuses to blow like that? Its the only bit I've been messing with. Still no sound other than a whistling sound from the speakers now...But thats likely to potentially dud MPU I popped into the sound board? Need a known worker of those...

Horrible sounds video here - https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZpjFXcqeCgFPf74n6

#21 4 years ago
Quoted from Biglouie:

Ive noticed that on the powerboard, LED3 is on constantly, and manual says this ought not to be. Seen a bit of conflicting info about that and that it isnt important? All the DIPs are set to on, in the bank below the LEDS...

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

#22 4 years ago
Quoted from Biglouie:

Is there a way to test this data cable do you think? Could the data cable not being in right, cause fuses to blow like that? Its the only bit I've been messing with.

I would try flipping over the small ribbon cable between the CPU and Power board. I've actually never ran into an issue where the blanking signal doesn't do its job.

#23 4 years ago

Do you still have the sound board plugged in with no processor?

#24 4 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

I would try flipping over the small ribbon cable between the CPU and Power board. I've actually never ran into an issue where the blanking signal doesn't do its job.

I have. My new Rotten Dog auxiliary driver board had a bad transistor that caused the blanking circuit to be inoperable. Powering the machine on caused F103,104 & 105 to blow randomly.

1 year later
#25 3 years ago

@Biglouie, did you resolve your issues?

1 year later
#26 1 year ago

What did he do that stopped f104 and f105 from burning up on start up?

1 month later
#27 1 year ago
Quoted from hbpinball:

What did he do that stopped f104 and f105 from burning up on start up?

Games can have unique occurrences from one to another. Best to start your own repair thread if you have a game with an issue.

I repair my own games, but I like to see every repair thread closed with a resolution.

#28 1 year ago

I had an issue that was nearly identical to this recently with my Fish Tales. After reseating the ASIC chip, the game rom, and 1 other (socketed) chip on the CPU, problems vanished!

#29 1 year ago

I have been working on games for over 10 years. I don't see reseating ICs that wll be a cause for fuses to blow, but rather just plain boot up issues.

Now if you said you reseated ribbon cables, in that case, I can believe that. If you plug in certain ribbon cables one row off that will definitely cause fuses to blow.

#30 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

I have been working on games for over 10 years. I don't see reseating ICs that wll be a cause for fuses to blow, but rather just plain boot up issues.
Now if you said you reseated ribbon cables, in that case, I can believe that. If you plug in certain ribbon cables one row off that will definitely cause fuses to blow.

I definitely reseated the ribbon cable, in practically all the (6) locations several times even before reseating the IC’s and it never corrected the issues I was having (which was more then just fuses). Maybe I screwed up the ribbon cable over and over, or Wth? Don’t know. All I know is the game has been working no problems and that occurred over a month and about 200 games ago.

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
$ 17.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
 
$ 69.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Pimp
 
$ 72.50
$ 30.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
G-Money Mods
 
$ 10.00
Playfield - Plastics
Pinball Haus
 
$ 9.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
3,799 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
San Diego, CA
$ 109.99
Lighting - Led
Lighted Pinball Mods
 
From: $ 3.50
Playfield - Other
Rocket City Pinball
 
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Bokchito, OK
4,900 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Kansas City, MO
$ 20.00
Playfield - Plastics
G-Money Mods
 
$ 70.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
RobTune
 
$ 19.00
Boards
Tilted Pinball
 
$ 16.50
Lighting - Led
Lermods
 
$ 35.00
Cabinet - Other
Rocket City Pinball
 
$ 65.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
G-Money Mods
 
$ 329.99
Lighting - Other
Lighted Pinball Mods
 
$ 20.00
Cabinet - Decals
Pinball Haus
 
$ 35.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
G-Money Mods
 
$ 399.95
Lighting - Led
Pin Stadium Pinball Mods
 
$ 28.99
Lighting - Interactive
Lee's Parts
 
$ 225.00
Lighting - Interactive
Professor Pinball
 
$ 85.00
Cabinet - Other
Pinball Haus
 
Hey modders!
Your shop name here

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.