(Topic ID: 215998)

Blackout Yellow and Ejection hole sound problem


By Pintor

1 year ago



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  • 62 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Pintor
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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There are 62 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 1 year ago

Hello! I’m new to pinside. I just got my first pin Blackout and I’m addicted!!! So much so I’m buyig a Pinbot this weekend

The blackout works great for the most part (I even fixed the coin mechanism so I could play with quarters) but whenever I hit all of the yellow targets or the blackout ejection hole (after ive cleared all of the red, green and yellow targets) it produces a random speech sound like “orbit complete” instead of the correct sound. The red and green targets say the correct sound.

I’ve tried everything I could think of including cleaning the pins on the sound board and checking connections.

Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks I’m advance!

#2 1 year ago

Is the bad behavior consistent? Every time you do 'x' it plays sound 'y'?

Have you done the switch test? Pinwiki describes the process. http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_3_-_7#Testing_the_Switch_Matrix

#3 1 year ago

See http://www.ipdb.org/files/317/Williams_1980_Blackout_Operators_Handbook.pdf, page 8. If you go into the solenoid test, 9-13 should all make sounds. If one isn't working, you'll get wrong or missing sounds in some cases.

#4 1 year ago

Thanks!! I will try that when I get home and provide an update.

#5 1 year ago

Try reseating all the connectors on the sound board and the lower left connector on the driver board. The lower left connector on the driver board is where the signal is sent to the sound board to tell it what sound to play.

You should plan on reflowing solder to those connectors (might be a bad connection there) or actually reflowing solder on all the header pins on all the boards. Games from this era are prone to bad solder joints on header pins.

#6 1 year ago

Update. I tried reconnecting the connector on the left lower driver board but that didn’t fix it. Then I tried the solenoid text and found out solenoid 11 didn’t make a sound,and I think my solenoid 16 is out which is why the coin lockout was malfunctioning.

I can’t figure out where the location of the solenoids are. I’ve looked through the manual and schematics and can’t find their location.

Does anyone know where solenoids 11 and 16 are typically located?

Thanks again!!

#7 1 year ago

The solenoids themselves? 11 isn't really a solenoid, the sound board just detects when the driver board turns 'it' on. The coin lockout coil is in the coin door.

I'd try replacing the transistor for solenoid 11 on the driver board to start, or repinning the connectors

#8 1 year ago

The coin lockout may be disconnected. It's not really necessary for home use.

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#9 1 year ago

Thanks Zacaj I’ll try that tonight and come back here with an update.

Oldschoolbob I’ll take another look at that tonight too. I was able to jimmy rig it by keeping the button behind the solenoid compressed at all times, that allowed the coin op to work. I’ll look at the connections again and see.

Thanks again! I’ll post with an update tonight.

#10 1 year ago

I was looking at the schematics of the driver board, it appears the area I hightlighted is the driver for solenoid 11. Is that small box at the bottom of the driver the piece I need to repin?

Thank you

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#11 1 year ago
Quoted from Pintor:

Is that small box at the bottom of the driver the piece I need to repin?

The two common causes for losing a sound line is either that Q35 (a TIP102/120/122) has failed, or that the connectors are bad. Since you reseated 2J9, that connector probably isn't bad. I'd also reseat the other end of 2J9, J3 on the sound board.

Another thing you can do to test Q35/the connectors before replacing it is to use a piece of wire to briefly connect the metal tab on the top of Q35 to ground (metal back of the backbox will work). If that generates a sound, you know it's Q35 (or something else on the driver board). If it doesn't, you've got a connector or sound board issue. You can play around with grounding the tabs of the other sound solenoid transistors too to make sure they all produce a sound

#12 1 year ago

It worked! I touched the wire as you said. Then I noticed that tab was loose and when I tried to reposition it, it broke off! I think it must have been loose which is why it wasn’t working.

Which leads me to my next question, how do I get it back on? I’ve done some mild soldering in the past but nothing on this small of a scale.

Is there an easier way to reconnect it without having to remove the entire driver board?

Thanks again! I’m learning so much from you guys.

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#13 1 year ago

Nope, you'll need to remove the board and put a new transistor in

#14 1 year ago

Got it. I ordered the transistor online (I don’t think there’s any stores in my area that sell them). I should have it early next week. I’ll desolder the old pins and solder the new transistor in. I’ll post an update afterwards. Thank you.

#15 1 year ago

Go over terryb 's soldering guide. You don't want to damage your board while you're fixing it.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/terrybs-soldering-guide-part-1

#16 1 year ago

I’ve been reading the guides. I have to admit I’m a bit nervous! I got the soldering kit coming in this week, including the solder sucker and wick. I’ll post an update on how it goes.

#17 1 year ago

Time for the update! Using a solder sucker I got the holes cleared and inserted the new piece.

Sadly, the game is still making random sounds It didn’t improve much and all of the targets still say random sounds (the green and red used to say the appropriate sound before I broke the transistor).

Please see below, I will run another solenoid, sound test tonight to see. I’d love to have any feedback

Interestingly in the photo where I circled, it appeared a previous owner removed the transistors for solenoids 14 and 16, which are the coin lockout and knocker. I don’t know if those would affect the sounds or not. I’ll replace those once I figure out the right transistors.

Thanks

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#18 1 year ago

Round 2, I took it off and noticed I didn’t really get solder into those holes, I resoldered it. Here’s the new pic. Of note the transistor feels tight now. I’ll reinsert the board and see if it works

#19 1 year ago

Condition yellow and blackout work!!! For some reason it says “orbit complete when I get the red and green targets (those are the two that used to work. Any thoughts?

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#20 1 year ago

Sorry for so many posts. I noticed it doesn’t have the heart beat sound anymore and also I noticed it sounds like that sound/solenoid will fire inappropriately. Any thoughts? Thanks again and sorry for all the questions I’m noob at this

#21 1 year ago

Not sure which picture is in which order, but in one of them you were missing 10, 11, 14, and 16. 14 and 16 missing shouldn't affect sound, but 10 and 11 will.

#22 1 year ago

Last pic in post #17...a bit blurry to tell for sure but in the lower right corner it looks as though you have broken solder joints on at least a few of those pins. Reflow the solder on those. Boards look to have other issues, missing components as pointed out already.

#23 1 year ago

I thought something looked funny with 10. I just replaced 11. I’ll replace 10 tonight and write back with an update.

Thanks for the heads up on the broken joints, I reflowed those joints and posted the new pic below

I just ordered the 2N4401 transistors for 14 & 16 and will solder those back when I get the parts later this week.

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#24 1 year ago

Something came up last night. The 2N4401 transistors are arriving tomorrow. I might as well wait for them to arrive and solder all three t120s for 10,14, and 16 and the 2N4401s for 14 and 16. I’ll install the knocker I got from pinballresource. If all goes well I should have a fully functional blackout!

I’ll post an update with pic when I’m done.

#25 1 year ago

I resoldered everything and it was working great for a brief game, then I did a solenoid test and when it was on the new knocker installed it sounded like the knocker tried to fire but didn’t and now none of the sounds work and it smells like rubber. I’m hoping it’s just a fuse but all of them look like they’re in good shape.

Did something fry??? The other solenoids work, it’s just the sounds aren’t working.

Thanks for your help in advance

#26 1 year ago

The game still plays fine, everything lights up and the targets drop, the only thing not working is the sound

#27 1 year ago

Sorry to post so much, I’m super bummed.. It’s possible I had the polarity to the knocker reversed (it didn’t come with any instructions) if so maybe a fuse to the knocker that’s affecting the drivers for the sound? I keep looking at the fuses and none of them appear blown (doesn’t mean they are though) I’m just fretting that some other component fried, but it’s not obvious, just that burned rubber smell..

#28 1 year ago

I think I found the problem, the driver for solenoid 14 fractures open. See the pics. I’ll remove it and I’m not putting a new one in. I hope this works...

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#29 1 year ago

I doubt that one transistor would kill the sound as well. Can you run the full solenoid test again once you remove the knocker transistor, and note exactly which coils/sounds do or don't work?

#30 1 year ago

I removed the T120 and 2N4401, I did the solenoid test and the following aren’t working

9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14,

Any ideas? The game will make one sound, a quick sound when the bumpers in the upper play field are hit with the ball.

Any ideas?

Thank you

#31 1 year ago

And 15 definitely works still?

Retry grounding the tabs for each of the sound transistors, see if you still get sound that way

It seems like that knocker transistor blowing damaged something else as well, so need to retrace prior steps and figure out exactly where the problem is now

#32 1 year ago

15 still works, I know I don’t get it either. I will retry grounding tabs and post an update.

It’s heartbreaking, I finally had all the sounds working, if I had just left the knocker off... This is the last time I will ever replace a knocker

#33 1 year ago

I did the test and only 13 works when I ground it, 9-12 stay silent.

Any other suggestions?

I’m going to pick up some fuses for the sound board and replace them just in case.

#34 1 year ago

From your pictures it looks like you may have bad/broken solder connections at the headers where you plug in the connectors. That is a known issue on these games. Had that problem on my Blackout and I'm just finishing up a board set for another machine. Once they've been gone through and bulletproofed you'll have an awesome machine that will play well for a long time to come.

Robert

#35 1 year ago
Quoted from Pintor:

Any other suggestions?

On the sound board, there's a row of resistors, R5-10. Try grounding one of the leads of each the same way you do the transistor tabs. There should be direct continuity through the connectors from the tabs to those resistors. If you don't get a sound from them then you've got an issue on the sound board. If you do get a sound from them but not the transistors then it's a connector problem (most likely bad solder joints like Robotworkshop suggests but it could be the pins too)

#36 1 year ago

Thanks robot and zac. I tried what you said Zac,

Solenoid 9 didn’t make any sound except when I touched the bottom connector of SR1 which is to the left of R5-10.

Solenoid tests 10-11 nothing except some scratchy speaker sounds with the bottom of SR1. While I was testing 12, I just have accidentally hit another connector because all of a sudden the sound test came on the speaker and it was going through all of the speech sounds (from orbit complete to blackout).

I still don’t have the fuses yet, I have to pick those up in the Morning.

Any other suggestions! Thanks guys the accidental sound test gave me a glimmer of hope

#37 1 year ago

What do you mean by 'when you were testing 12'??

#38 1 year ago

Sorry I meant when I was doing the grounding test that you mentioned

#39 1 year ago

Well, if you're grounding those resistors and not getting sound, then it sounds like something is damaged on your sound board. As an extra check, disconnect J3 from the sound board and ground its pins as well. Also, with J3 disconnected, power cycle the game and then press the test switch on the sound board, see if you get that repeating sound test.

#40 1 year ago

Ok I’m stumped, I removed J3 and connected each prong for each solenoid (sol 10-13) to the ground and all of them made a sound! Does that mean there’s a problem with the driver board then?

I took some photos of the sound board and driver board just in case. I left J3 disconnected in the large photo so you could see the prongs.

Thanks!!

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#41 1 year ago

I was looking at the schematics, if it was the driver board, could it be the N7408of the IC3 and IC4 on the driver board that need to be replaced? I was looking at the schematics and the IC4 is what connects to the T120 of solenoid 14 that was damaged.

#42 1 year ago

Oh and the 2J9connector is disconnected In all of the photos, when I touch those prongs to the back box nothing happens.

About my previous post, wierd thing is solenoids 15 and 16 work, so if IC4 was fried wouldn’t 15 and 16 fail?

#43 1 year ago

Further tinkering revealed that connecting the T120 for solendoid 13(aka Q39) on the driver board to the ground still produced a sound, so if appears only solenoids 9-12 don’t work (Q31,Q33, Q35,Q37). All 4 if those appear to be linked on the schematics but a gray line (forgive me I don’t know circuitry) and 13 is not connected by that same line.

I’m not sure if I’m onto something or if this is way off base. As always thanks for the help.

#44 1 year ago
Quoted from Pintor:

I was looking at the schematics, if it was the driver board, could it be the N7408of the IC3 and IC4 on the driver board that need to be replaced? I was looking at the schematics and the IC4 is what connects to the T120 of solenoid 14 that was damaged.

It could be, though I find it weird that both would have been damaged by solenoid 14.

Quoted from Pintor:About my previous post, wierd thing is solenoids 15 and 16 work, so if IC4 was fried wouldn’t 15 and 16 fail?

Although rarer, it is possible for only certain pins on a chip to fail.

Quoted from Pintor:

when I touch those prongs to the back box nothing happens.

You mean the pins of 2J9 on the driver board? Nothing would happen then, as nothing is connected to the pins to be grounded

Quoted from Pintor:All 4 if those appear to be linked on the schematics but a gray line (forgive me I don’t know circuitry) and 13 is not connected by that same line.

Not sure which gray line you're talking about here, could you take a screenshot or something with it highlighted?

Quoted from Pintor:Further tinkering revealed that connecting the T120 for solendoid 13(aka Q39) on the driver board to the ground still produced a sound, so if appears only solenoids 9-12 don’t work (Q31,Q33, Q35,Q37)

So when you ground the transistor tabs (with 2J9 and J3 connected), you get sound from Q39, but not any of the other ones? But in the coil test #13 does not produce a sound?

#45 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

So when you ground the transistor tabs (with 2J9 and J3 connected), you get sound from Q39, but not any of the other ones? But in the coil test #13 does not produce a sound?

Yes only solenoid 13 makes a sound with 2J9 and J3 connected

At this rate I’m tempted to buy A new speech and sound board from pinballpcb.

It sounds like you’re pretty certain it’s the sound board. I have to agree since it’s only the sounds affected.

I’ll post a pic of the gray line i mentioned in the schematics that connects solenoids 9-12 in the schematics

#46 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Not sure which gray line you're talking about here, could you take a screenshot or something with it highlighted

Here’s that line (or part of the circuit) that connects 9-12 but not 13. I was wondering if that had something to do with them not working.

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#47 1 year ago

Ah, I see. That line actually does connect to the rest, it's just on the other side of the board. I'd recommend only using that diagram for identifying parts, and use the ones on the following pages to see how everything actually connects up.

Quoted from Pintor:It sounds like you’re pretty certain it’s the sound board. I have to agree since it’s only the sounds affected.

If you can disconnect J3 and ground the J3 pins on the board and not get sounds from them, it's definitely a sound board issue (although it could be just bad solder joints on the board technically).

#48 1 year ago

When I disconnect J3 on the sound board and I ground the pins I do get sounds for each solenoid (9-13).

When I disconnect 2J9 on the driver board and ground the pins I don’t get sounds.

Does that mean it’s a sound board problem or a driver board issue?

The $$$ is adding up. If only I hadn’t installed (incorrectly) that knocker!

Thanks in advance!

#49 1 year ago

If you get sounds on the sound board pins for each line then the sound board is fine.

So that means the problem is either your driver board or connectors. Since it got worse when you blew the knocker coil I'd lean towards the driver. With a logic probe you could narrow down exactly what the problem is by looking at the actual signals, but you could always just replace all the chips involved (starting with ic3+4), if you're confident in your Desoldering skills. (chips are harder than transistors, more legs)

#50 1 year ago

I think I’ll start with replacing the driver board. Rotten dog has a sale on some mpu/driver boards ill order of those and post an update.

Thanks again for everything, I really appreciate your wisdom and advice.

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