(Topic ID: 167469)

Blackout Club... (Fans Welcome)

By mof

7 years ago


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You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider schwaggs.
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#101 7 years ago

Joined the club this weekend! Non-working condition (only GI when turned on) horribly flaked backglass. PF, plastics, and cab look descent. Can't wait to tear into the cleaning and restoration!

#102 7 years ago

What are the correct flipper bat and flipper rubber colors? Mine has yellow bats with yellow rubber but the brochure shows white bats with red rubbers.

#111 7 years ago

Thanks guys, I guess I should have phased my question "What color bats and rubbers are original equipment on Blackout"...

I agree, other color combinations look better than white/red, I was just wondering what was stock.

3 months later
#142 7 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

I'm not 100% sure but that feature might not been added till system 7. I know Black Knight has it

Firepower has it. I'm not aware of a setting for this on Blackout.

2 months later
#164 6 years ago

Hey guys, I ran into this the other day and was wondering if anyone else has seen it. I earned an extra ball through score. I then enabled the playfield extra ball (left orbit). When the extra ball light turned on next to the scoop, the Shoot Again light from the score based EB I had earned, turned off!

#170 6 years ago
Quoted from swillie:

Pulled the glass and ran up score till I earned the extra ball light. Racked up the orbit until scoop was lit for extra ball...the shoot again light stayed on. I dropped the ball out, game awarded me the extra ball and once in play the EB light went out. Hit the scoop and lit EB again. There you go, not sure why yours did that and I cannot find any setting to adjust it that way.

Hmmmm, thanks for testing it out! I'll try it the next time I have the glass off. I need to adjust one of my spinners anyway. I can't seem to get all 3 of them to score reliably!

Anyone know if there were different versions of the code for Blackout? Maybe I have an older version???

#174 6 years ago
Quoted from Budman:

Maybe a dumb question but.....I can't figure out the 1-20 lights in the middle of the playfield and how it relates to scoring?

The 1-20 lights are bonus you collect for certain shots on the playfield. It is collected at the end of the ball multiplied by the multiplier that you earned through the top lanes.

10 months later
#312 6 years ago
Quoted from mof:

Negative.
The only thing you "have" to do, is remove the old springs, have the component that allows you to connect a new spring to the plunger arm, buy a small spring, and attach it to a frame screw and plunger arm component (don't know the name of that little extension).
So simple.
-mof

I've performed the upgrade on several games by replacing the base plate, which is pretty costly. A picture of how you did this would helpful! Specifically where you attached the end of the return spring on a stock System 6 era base plate without having the spring pull sideways on the plunger arm.

#317 6 years ago
Quoted from OwenKhan:

Hey Gents,
New to the club... just picked up a Blackout for 400 bucks. Playfield is pretty bad, missing inches of paint in multiple areas... so I have no problems taking a stab at re-painting it. But the real issue is it's also not booting.

Welcome to the club!

You really need to start with Vid's Bulletproofing System 6 thread. Lots of good, basic updates in that thread that need to be performed to your boardset before you start chasing anything.

Sounds like your boardset is not booting reliably. 40 pin connector, IC sockets and cold solder joints at the header pins are the usual suspects.

ROMS should not get hot like that. Warm, maybe but certainly not hot. The oxidized legs are very typical and need to be cleaned but more importantly, the sockets they plug into most likely need to be replaced. I rarely see bad ROMs but see bad sockets often. A common problem to watch for with the PROMs with oxidized legs is that the legs get very brittle and break off easily. You can mask the problem of bad sockets by getting fresh new ROMs with clean legs but for long term reliability, the sockets should be swapped with some modern dual swipe style.

1 week later
#324 6 years ago

Q1 - the unloaded voltage is always higher than the voltage listed in the manual. When the circuit is loaded, it should be more around 28V
Q2 - Could be - check the wiring on the transformer. Look at note 4 on page 23 of the Firepower schematic document on IPDB. Someone may have re-wired your transformer for a low line condition.
Q3 - see Q2
Q4 - See Q2
Q5 - the 40 pin connector can cause all sorts of errors. Did you replace the CPU socket? Any other sockets on the board?
Q6 - yes. Even though continuity works, it still can fail under load, at higher frequencies, as it warms up, etc.
Q7 - See Q5 for a start and replace the 40 pin for starters. Are you sure this system 4 board ever worked for Blackout? Might be worth researching if system 4 CPU is compatible with Blackout ROMs. Also might be worth checking the jumper settings on the CPU board to make sure they are compatible with Blackout. Double and triple check your replaced sockets for proper continuity and look for shorts.

1 week later
#328 6 years ago
Quoted from OwenKhan:

Schwaggs, thanks for the detailed responses. They are really quite helpful.
Update: I replaced sockets on the MPU and one other tiny IC on the bottom right. I replaced M and F sides of the 40 Pin Interconnect. It still won't boot (rather, it seems to boot fine, but doesn't start attract mode and gives the Bottom LED error when you hit the test button), it behaves exactly the same as before (except the random voice call outs on boot don't happen anymore, I assume that's unrelated, mentioning it in case I'm wrong and the sound going out is a clue...).
Next guesses: IC14 (the game rom on the right) is a different white colored socket. Its not scanbe. It grips the legs well. Continuity into the board is fine.
Q1: Do I need to suspect this socket or is there something else to check first? There is also a socket someone replaced before me... the soldering isn't great, but it continuity tests fine and looks good as far as I can tell.
Also, the PIA in IC10 (looks like for the lamp matrix) on the driverboard had a machine pin socket replacement, but the chip was pretty lose in it. As in, falling out of the board when pointed down... I bent the legs out a touch and it is seated much better now.
Q2: Do I need to go ahead and replace this? Or are the legs on the chip the problem?
Q3: Could a bad connection on this chip keep the game from booting to attract mode? (doesn't seem likely to me, but I don't actually know...)
I think those are the only things I can think of that remain potentially suspect...
Q4: What else can I be looking at or testing to find out why I can't get to attract mode?
Thanks guys.

Good progress and observations!

I don't think the changes to the sounds are any sort of clue.

Q1 - All 35 year old IC sockets are suspect! If they are gripping the chip tightly, that is a good sign. I would put this on the list to replace if we can't figure this out.
Q2 - YES! Any socket that cannot hold a chip in place needs to be replaced. Even sockets that require less force to insert the chip are suspect. Replace the PIA socket!
Q3 - Yes, the display PIA on the driver can prevent the board set from booting.
Q4 - After the PIA chip, you can try the game ROM sockets. After that, you will need a logic probe to begin seeing whats going on to prevent booting.

Are you getting anything on the displays? Look closely at the displays, can you see any hints of orange glow in the glass? Best done with the lights off. Also, be careful with those displays - DO NOT touch them when they are on. There is 150V on those displays and that can hurt you.

#330 6 years ago

Sorry, wrong word on my part. A loose PIA on either board can cause the game not to boot by corrupting the data or address bus. I would replace IC10 socket.

The question on the display was just to confirm the display power supply is working, which it sounds like it is.

#333 6 years ago

Sorry that didn't help. None of the work you have done so far is not needed. The sockets and 40 pin needed to be replaced for the reliability of the board.

Yes, it is time to get a logic probe. Probably a good idea to start your own troubleshooting thread. This way we stop plugging up the club thread and you can get more people helping.

1 month later
#339 5 years ago
Quoted from OwenKhan:

Well... the 40 pin was the problem. That and the bad game rom they sent me that had me chasing ghosts for a while. Anyways it works now, still one issue with flipper power:
I rebuilt the flippers completely, new Eos switches, new cabinet switches, brackets, stops, coils, mechs, bats, rubbers and they still seem weak to me. It’s really tough to line up an orbit shot right.
There is a black out on location here that is super snappy, you can backhand the upper 3 bank from the right flipper. On mine there is no chance of that, you can only get 75% of the way up the field at that angle. Is the machine on location overpowered with stronger solenoids, I like the way it plays better...
I’ll also try the return spring mod, seems like a good idea..
There is a ball hop issue in that side that may be contributing. Also, I think there are a few more pinned connections in the flipper circuit that I can check for solid contact, but after that I’m out of ideas.
Looking for hints and confirmation that some mystery factor is actually robbing some of the flipper power.

Congrats on getting it going! That darn 40 pin is the cause more times than not.

The End of Stroke switch adjustment has a significant effect on flipper strength. Push the flipper pawl into the coil with your finger (do not push it in by moving the flipper bat or you will get a bad adjustment) and adjust the gap to be around 1/16 of an inch.

#342 5 years ago
Quoted from OwenKhan:

I’ve messed with the eos switches a bit. I’m pretty sure they’re right. I even tried jumper in them with alligator clips and didn’t see significant change. But I will check them again as I value your advice and may have missed something.

If you don't get good power with the EOS jumpered, adjusting it is probably not the cause.

Next look at J3 (lower left on the power board) and J12 on the Driver board. At a minimum, reflow solder to these header pins or better yet, replace them. Look carefully at the connector for loose wires, replace with higher current trifuricon crimp-on style if they look questionable.

Remove fuse F4 from the power board and clean the ends with a green scrubby or steel wool. Inspect the fuse clips to make sure they are strong and grip the fuse tightly. Clean the fuse clips with a green scrubby best you can. Reinstall F4.

Last in the path is the connectors between the head and cabinet. Power leaves the power supply board at J3 (inspected above) and enters the playfield at 8P2. You can find this connector by tracing the wires from the power supply board. Ground connects to the driver board at J12 (inspected above) and enters the cabinet at 7J1 pins 7 and 9 and heads towards the flipper switches. From the flipper switches the signal again goes through 7J1 pins 8 and 10 then 8P3 to the flipper coils. Any one of these connections could be loose or corroded, causing weak flipper power.

Its a bit of a needle in a haystack. I would look at the connectors on the boards for bad solder joints and connections. If that's not it, you might just want to bump up your flipper coil strength.

4 months later
#374 5 years ago

Seems he disabled the GI blackout function. Seems kinda wrong. Love the runway light strip.

7 months later
#443 4 years ago
Quoted from ss-pinball:

Joined the club several weeks ago with a project...
Where is the best--closest to the original--backglass replacement from?
As I understand it there are some less than great one out there...

DO NOT get the one from planetary. The mirroring is great but the color saturation sux. The black is "see through" when backlit, for example. I had to remove a bunch of bulbs to make it even passable.

6 months later
#524 4 years ago
Quoted from Hench4Life:

Joined the club a couple months ago, but my wedding and honeymoon planning prevented me from putting any work in. This machine is in pretty rough condition, looks like it spent a lot of time in a garage; mouse droppings and leaves included.
No backglass, major acid damage on the board, beat up cabinent and all the rubbers are destroyed. However, the playfield is in pretty decent shape, and the plastics are all in good shape (couple have some warping).
This is my first project (I have a players condition Time Machine), but I'm excited to bring this bad boy back to life. I didn't want to attempt a board refurb, so I got a Rottendog board. The biggest issues, other that a deep clean, is a locked up slingshot coil. I noticed the coil had a burt wrap, but the diode wasn't hooked up, so i thought that may have been the cause. I got a replacement coil (with diode). When I power up, it engages and stays that way. I found one of the activation switches (the scoring switch) was twisted and stuck closed, but that didn't resolve the issue. I've read through several threads on pinside on the issues, and they are usually a transistor or IC issues, but I wouldn't think that's the issue with a brand new board.
If anyone has any ideas on what might be the issue, I would really appreciate the help.
I know the relay for blackout isn't working, but I'll worry about that later...

Did you get your sling fixed? There are 2 sets of switches on the slings. The one under the playfield with the diode attached only controls scoring, not triggering, so ignore it for now.

The 2 switches that stick through the playfield are what actually triggers the coil to fire. They should be wired in parallel. Carefully inspect these switch stacks for leafs that may be shorted together. Check the capacitor to see if it failed closed. Use your meter on resistance (ohms), game OFF, and measure the resistance between the contact points of the switches to make sure it isn't shorted.

1 week later
#536 4 years ago

Or camera frame rate making it look like that.

3 weeks later
#558 4 years ago
Quoted from Hench4Life:

I found the sling issue; the mosfet and resistor on my rottendog board are spent. When I stripped the playfied I found that one of the switches for the slingshot was physically stuck on, and it must of blown the transistor in the original board, and then the mosfet in the new board. Parts on order...
I am having issues with the drop Target banks scoring and resetting without hits. It seems to happen intermittently, but it gets worse the longer the game is on. I thought it might have been related to the sling issue, but the drop s aren't special solonoids and are on a different connector and IC

Glad you found the problem. Typically, a shorted trigger switch will not cause the driver to fail. Typically the coil will burn before the driver transistor fails. You might want to measure the resistance of that coil to make sure it is in spec, check that the coil diode has not failed shorted and make sure the wires are soldered on the coil in the proper orientation so that the striped side of the diode is towards power. A failed or reversed diode can draw so much power that the driver transistor fails.

2 months later
#596 4 years ago
Quoted from Da-Shaker:

Is it possible to tilt the play field back and lean it on the back box? The interior of my cabinet has side rails, but the left side drops off. This makes the entire play field tilt to the left when I'm trying to flip it to the back box. Are all old Williams cabs this way? I'm thinking of cutting out a 2x2 to length and adding it to the left side, so that both sides are equal.

Don't add a block that is wider than stock or it will get in the way of components on the underside of the playfield when it is in the playable position. I bet a 2x2 is too wide.

3 months later
#674 3 years ago

Blackout ROM file I have has 1 sound ROM and 3 Voice ROMs

#676 3 years ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

That's what I have in my game. This has 1 sound ROM and 4 voice ROM's on the other board. Maybe a couple ROM's were smaller so it takes up an extra ROM to hold all the speech on earlier games. So far I can't hear any difference.

Hmm, interesting. The voice ROMS are 4K and doesn't look like there are jumper settings for bigger or smaller ROMS unless someone physically modified the board and changed the addressing on the sockets.

The other option is if the 4th ROM socket is populated with an extra ROM or a junk ROM, it wouldn't change a thing. The CPU would never access it since the program isn't looking for a ROM there.

Do all 4 ROMs look the same? Can you read any numbers off the ROMs?

Would be interesting to read the contents of those 4 ROMs to see whats there.

2 weeks later
#694 3 years ago
Quoted from ThatOneDude:

Can someone help me out? I'm putting a blackout back together, and I have a wire guide that I can't find a place for. I've included pics of the rest of the pf.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Maybe to the right of the right most lane guide on the toplanes?

1 week later
#710 3 years ago
Quoted from danczaz:

Getting closer!!![quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Looking great! Agree on the ear plug compliment, great idea!

What levels of sandpaper grit did you use? What was your final grit before clear? Did you sand the inserts with a smoother grit?

What did you use for clear?

1 week later
#722 3 years ago
Quoted from Matthew2000tx:

I have a blackout purchased in October. It's on free play and about 1/4 of the time I hit the start button it activates a 2 player game. Anyone else have this issue? My tech said it's a know grounding issue but I can't find any posts about it. Thanks

Its a common issue with all Williams games from this era but it is fixable.

With the game off, clean the contacts of the start switch by pulling a piece of paper through the contacts as you gently press them together. Repeat until the contacts are no longer leaving a mark on the paper.

Gap the switch so there is about 1/16" of a gap at rest.

#725 3 years ago
Quoted from ss-pinball:

I feel like this is some tweak or small adjustment that needs to occur...any hints as to where to start?

As Stashyboy said this can be a problem with the horseshoe contacts on the drop targets. It can also be a wire broken off the drop target boards.

On the back of the drop target assembly, there are boards with switch matrix wires connected. Carefully inspect the wires and jumpers for a disconnected wire. Not uncommon for one to be broken off the board. Gently pull on each one to ensure they are connected on both ends. Sometime it's hard to tell if they are all connected just by looking at them. There are a lot of wires there.

If not a broken wire, you have a contact problem. The contacts can be tricky to get adjusted properly and sometimes are broken. Problem is that it is a bit of a project to get to them to clean or make adjustments. You need to remove the boards off the back of the drop target mech or remove the entire assembly. Good news is you can still purchase replacement parts:

https://www.pinballlife.com/drop-target-horseshoe-wiper-contact-blade-right.html

That page shows an example horseshoe contact and what the board looks like.

Take lots of pictures of the wiring on these boards before you get started. They can come lose when you are working on the boards and having pictures of where they go can be immensely helpful.

#752 3 years ago

System 7 has many of the same exact problems System 6 has. The 40pin - cold solder joints - worn out capacitors - worn out sockets.

Other games of this era have their weak spots too - Stern and Bally with that power board that is always burned up - .100 pitch connectors that are flaky - SCRs burning out in the lamp matrix.

I don't think advanced diagnostics is the answer when the average Joe Pinball isn't going to do board work. If so, there are diagnostic ROMs that will pinpoint problems (to a certain degree) on system 3-7. Or just get a logic probe and start working through the board.

I think it has nothing to do with reliability. It has to do with the sheer volume of some of these games that were made, the depth of the rules, interest of the gameplay (lack of ramps until System 7,etc) and the quality of the light show and sounds.

Hard to beat a System 11 game (which has it's own tech weaknesses) in these areas for only a few hundred to a thousand more than a Blackout.

Compared to WPC up to today and it's no contest which explains their ~$2500 starting point these days.

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