Blackout
Williams, 1980Quoted from mof:Has anyone succeeded in making the saucer output:
1. stronger
2. aim for right flipper better
Right now, mine hits the top of the right sling. I cleaned out the mechs 100% in the ultrasonic. That helped 10% but not enough to get ALL balls to the right flipper.
-mof
Bend the iron lever a little bit to the sideways.
Just a little bit will do.
Does the cup hold the ball in the middle?
Quoted from Inkochnito:Bend the iron lever a little bit to the sideways.
Just a little bit will do.
Does the cup hold the ball in the middle?
If either of the two guides on the eject shield are missing the ball will not exit the saucer correctly.
Still no luck on the saucer eject.
1. The plastic is perfect
2. Everything has been cleaned and adjusted.
3. The arm movement feels great. No resistance.
I suppose the next step is to swap out the coil with another coil. There's a chance the one on there (with no markings) is not the strength expected.
-mof
I'm about 15 hours into a shop job on Blackout. (I have not posted a shop job thread on it)
I love the shot geometry of this game.
What has made the biggest difference so far?
1. Adjusting all three of the upper right components to form a straight line for the orbit exit.
2. Adding Cliffy return frames
3. Polishing the mylar with treasure cove's products
4. Adding return springs to the flippers and removing the conical springs
5. Setting 6.5° and play testing to make sure the orbit is makeable on a clean shot
-mof
Quoted from mof:2. Adding Cliffy return frames
The cliffy's are a must. Made an enormous difference on mine.
Can you show pics and explain your flipper idea? Mine are rebuilt by TNT but still could be snappier, 25% stronger for the yellow target shot. Does anyone else agree or am I spoiled by new / modern pin flipper power?
Quoted from grandy:The cliffy's are a must. Made an enormous difference on mine.
What are the cliffy return frames and where do they go?
Quoted from Budman:Can you show pics and explain your flipper idea? Mine are rebuilt by TNT but still could be snappier, 25% stronger for the yellow target shot. Does anyone else agree or am I spoiled by new / modern pin flipper power?
Wpc style return springs. You will have to change your base plates if stock.
Quoted from Robotworkshop:What are the cliffy return frames and where do they go?
Metal inlane guides that feed the flippers. Old ones get worn near the flippers and cause the ball to hop/lose momentum when the ball transitions from the inlane to the flipper.
http://www.passionforpinball.com/FlipFrames.htm is a direct link to Cliffy's return frames. From that page, here is an example of the wear that causes ball hops and such.
Quoted from gutz:Wpc style return springs. You will have to change your base plates if stock.
Negative.
The only thing you "have" to do, is remove the old springs, have the component that allows you to connect a new spring to the plunger arm, buy a small spring, and attach it to a frame screw and plunger arm component (don't know the name of that little extension).
So simple.
-mof
Quoted from mof:Negative.
The only thing you "have" to do, is remove the old springs, have the component that allows you to connect a new spring to the plunger arm, buy a small spring, and attach it to a frame screw and plunger arm component (don't know the name of that little extension).
So simple.
-mof
I've performed the upgrade on several games by replacing the base plate, which is pretty costly. A picture of how you did this would helpful! 
Specifically where you attached the end of the return spring on a stock System 6 era base plate without having the spring pull sideways on the plunger arm.
Hey Gents,
New to the club... just picked up a Blackout for 400 bucks. Playfield is pretty bad, missing inches of paint in multiple areas... so I have no problems taking a stab at re-painting it. But the real issue is it's also not booting.
GI comes on and the MPU LEDs will occasionally flash once then go out (seems like that means the MPU booted at least), but intermittently they do almost every other possible combination. Usually they come on and stay on. It will not go into attract mode and I can't get into a test mode either. When it seems to boot cleanly, it says "mission complete" and plays a long set of decending 'bloop' tones. Nothing on the displays ever, the main display board is getting power at least to its connector, havent tried testing on the board yet...
It did fire up attract mode once, only once. I few times the resistors on the driver board got way hot (getting parts to upgrade them) but now that doesn't even happen. Power is getting to the Driver board, but I assume it isn't working because those resistors don't heat up at all anymore.
Also, I know for a fact one of the flipper ROMs was installed upsidedown... Is it fried for sure or could it still work? The 2nd Flipper ROM gets too hot to touch if I leave the game up for a while... What would cause this? assuming its not normal... and is that one likely fried too? the Game ROM chip has pretty oxidized legs... so I'm thinkin' maybe the ROMS are my problem? Would bad roms make it not start attract mode? Should I start with a new set of ROMs?
Open to ideas on where to continue trouble shooting....
Quoted from OwenKhan:Hey Gents,
New to the club... just picked up a Blackout for 400 bucks. Playfield is pretty bad, missing inches of paint in multiple areas... so I have no problems taking a stab at re-painting it. But the real issue is it's also not booting.
Welcome to the club!
You really need to start with Vid's Bulletproofing System 6 thread. Lots of good, basic updates in that thread that need to be performed to your boardset before you start chasing anything.
Sounds like your boardset is not booting reliably. 40 pin connector, IC sockets and cold solder joints at the header pins are the usual suspects.
ROMS should not get hot like that. Warm, maybe but certainly not hot. The oxidized legs are very typical and need to be cleaned but more importantly, the sockets they plug into most likely need to be replaced. I rarely see bad ROMs but see bad sockets often. A common problem to watch for with the PROMs with oxidized legs is that the legs get very brittle and break off easily. You can mask the problem of bad sockets by getting fresh new ROMs with clean legs but for long term reliability, the sockets should be swapped with some modern dual swipe style.
Quoted from OwenKhan:Anyone on here sell reliable Blackout ROMs? Interested in the divided by 10 score one if its around...
I should have an extra divide by 10 ROM and can check. Also those ROM's don't normally get hot. Is the one getting hot the one that was installed backwards? I usually pull all he ROMS, carefully clean off any oxidation on the leads, and verify the images. I'll replace any that have failed.
I've rebuilt quite a few of these boards now and would start with replacing the 40 pin connector on both the MPU and driver boards. Also, is there any battery damage? That can wipe out traces on the board and other parts.
The other problem with the boards is that the leads were trimmed too short from the factory. You get broken solder connections and cold solder joints. Some people just say reheat and add a little fresh solder. While that may have worked when the machine was newer and a fresh break that isn't good enough. Many of these have had bad connections for years and it has oxidized the length of the pin in the board. I remove all those connectors, made a tool to push the pins through their sheel so the stick out about 1/16" out the bottom so after soldering there is a nice strong filet so it won't break again. That step is something that isn't mentioned in the bulletproof in guide but needs to be added. Also changing some of the switch matrix resistors to 0 ohm jumpers.
Don't forget to add two fuses on the inputs to the bridges. That will protect your game (and maybe your house) if one shorts.
Blackout is a great game and is solid once you go through it.
Robert
Quoted from swillie:Finally lit my blackout kicker with a slow fader from Comet Pinball. Used nearby extraball socket screw to mount and alligator clips to the gi wires. Very simple mod and looks really cool.
Have you tried any of the fire LED's? I used 8 of them on the machine. 5 on the playfield GI inder the meteors, 3 in the upper center of the backglass. Looks awesome. I also picked up a couple UV LED's and was going to try one in the blackout light.
Quoted from Robotworkshop:Have you tried any of the fire LED's? I used 8 of them on the machine. 5 on the playfield GI inder the meteors, 3 in the upper center of the backglass. Looks awesome. I also picked up a couple UV LED's and was going to try one in the blackout light.
Where did you get the fire LEDs? I want those, sounds perfect. Also I tried the UV blacklight LED bulb for the cup also, but just didn't 'pop' enough. I think the deep purple shade of the color changer looks more like what I thought the blacklight bulb would be like, so I would suggest a purple instead. Buy both, they are so inexpensive anyway.
Quoted from swillie:Where did you get the fire LEDs? I want those, sounds perfect. Also I tried the UV blacklight LED bulb for the cup also, but just didn't 'pop' enough. I think the deep purple shade of the color changer looks more like what I thought the blacklight bulb would be like, so I would suggest a purple instead. Buy both, they are so inexpensive anyway.
I have a blue bulb in the blackout now that looks bood but may still try the UV light. I haven't tried lighting the kickout hole yet.
Those Flame LED's are shown here:
Update on the Blackout that I'm struggling to get into attract mode: I'm pretty new to the hobby, but not entirely clueless... I've spent a good bit of time reading the various troubleshooting guides for Williams sys3-7 and I'm not getting anywhere, so asking for some help...
This blackout is a bit Frankensteined; its got a system 4 MPU and the power supply from one of the games that still had the -300v line for priming the displays. My understanding is that that shouldn't matter, but it has made things more than a bit confusing having to look at 3 different sets of schematics and trying to cross reference everything and make sure that the PS is sending out the voltages that the other boards actually want to see.
So I've double checked all that and it all looks good from what I can tell.
Weird stuff: The Solenoid line from the transformer to the PS reads 40v (it should be 28 according to the schematic). The guy who owned it before me said he was always blowing the 2.5A solenoid fuses.... Seems like this may be why, right?
Q1: why is that high?
Q2: is it a problem
Q3: how do I get it down to 28v?
The +16v Lamp lines are also a bit high. They test at 20v... That doesn't seem like a big deal, but I thought I'd mention it.
The Bridge rectifiers that feed these lines test at 15VAC and 29VAC. The schematics want them at 13.5 and 25.5.
Q4: are those within normal tolerances? Or do I need to look into this...
Things I've tried: All voltages powering the boards look good (haven't tested anything beyond power getting to the boards, don't know how!)
I toasted a ROM, so I got new ones and replaced the SCANBE sockets with machined pin ones, Same for the two 6810 RAM chips. I tried that because I was getting the 'lower LED stays on' error code pretty consistently and I read that meant there was a read/write error on those chips... Having replaced the chips and sockets i still get the same error. So...
Q5: What else could cause that error? Or what else should I be looking at?
I haven't done the 40 pin interconnect yet, but it tests good on all pins for continuity. I have parts to replace it in the mail...
Q6: is there any way it could pass continuity testing across the pins and still be causing problems?
Q7: How to I go about isolating the problem that is keeping the machine from booting into attract mode?
Thanks very much for any help you can offer!
Q1 - the unloaded voltage is always higher than the voltage listed in the manual. When the circuit is loaded, it should be more around 28V
Q2 - Could be - check the wiring on the transformer. Look at note 4 on page 23 of the Firepower schematic document on IPDB. Someone may have re-wired your transformer for a low line condition.
Q3 - see Q2
Q4 - See Q2
Q5 - the 40 pin connector can cause all sorts of errors. Did you replace the CPU socket? Any other sockets on the board?
Q6 - yes. Even though continuity works, it still can fail under load, at higher frequencies, as it warms up, etc.
Q7 - See Q5 for a start and replace the 40 pin for starters. Are you sure this system 4 board ever worked for Blackout? Might be worth researching if system 4 CPU is compatible with Blackout ROMs. Also might be worth checking the jumper settings on the CPU board to make sure they are compatible with Blackout. Double and triple check your replaced sockets for proper continuity and look for shorts.
I would look to get the correct system 6 board. There have been several inexpensive ones on eBay. One even had a Blackout ROM set on it.
I'd also replace the 40 pin connector. As I recall the CPU and driver work as a set and the CPU won't go through the boot up without it.
I started up a restore thread that will reveal several recommended tweaks to your Blackout:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/resto-blackout-mof-20180225
Schwaggs, thanks for the detailed responses. They are really quite helpful.
Update: I replaced sockets on the MPU and one other tiny IC on the bottom right. I replaced M and F sides of the 40 Pin Interconnect. It still won't boot (rather, it seems to boot fine, but doesn't start attract mode and gives the Bottom LED error when you hit the test button), it behaves exactly the same as before (except the random voice call outs on boot don't happen anymore, I assume that's unrelated, mentioning it in case I'm wrong and the sound going out is a clue...).
Next guesses: IC14 (the game rom on the right) is a different white colored socket. Its not scanbe. It grips the legs well. Continuity into the board is fine.
Q1: Do I need to suspect this socket or is there something else to check first? There is also a socket someone replaced before me... the soldering isn't great, but it continuity tests fine and looks good as far as I can tell.
Also, the PIA in IC10 (looks like for the lamp matrix) on the driverboard had a machine pin socket replacement, but the chip was pretty lose in it. As in, falling out of the board when pointed down... I bent the legs out a touch and it is seated much better now.
Q2: Do I need to go ahead and replace this? Or are the legs on the chip the problem?
Q3: Could a bad connection on this chip keep the game from booting to attract mode? (doesn't seem likely to me, but I don't actually know...)
I think those are the only things I can think of that remain potentially suspect...
Q4: What else can I be looking at or testing to find out why I can't get to attract mode?
Thanks guys.
Quoted from OwenKhan:Schwaggs, thanks for the detailed responses. They are really quite helpful.
Update: I replaced sockets on the MPU and one other tiny IC on the bottom right. I replaced M and F sides of the 40 Pin Interconnect. It still won't boot (rather, it seems to boot fine, but doesn't start attract mode and gives the Bottom LED error when you hit the test button), it behaves exactly the same as before (except the random voice call outs on boot don't happen anymore, I assume that's unrelated, mentioning it in case I'm wrong and the sound going out is a clue...).
Next guesses: IC14 (the game rom on the right) is a different white colored socket. Its not scanbe. It grips the legs well. Continuity into the board is fine.
Q1: Do I need to suspect this socket or is there something else to check first? There is also a socket someone replaced before me... the soldering isn't great, but it continuity tests fine and looks good as far as I can tell.
Also, the PIA in IC10 (looks like for the lamp matrix) on the driverboard had a machine pin socket replacement, but the chip was pretty lose in it. As in, falling out of the board when pointed down... I bent the legs out a touch and it is seated much better now.
Q2: Do I need to go ahead and replace this? Or are the legs on the chip the problem?
Q3: Could a bad connection on this chip keep the game from booting to attract mode? (doesn't seem likely to me, but I don't actually know...)
I think those are the only things I can think of that remain potentially suspect...
Q4: What else can I be looking at or testing to find out why I can't get to attract mode?
Thanks guys.
Good progress and observations!
I don't think the changes to the sounds are any sort of clue.
Q1 - All 35 year old IC sockets are suspect! If they are gripping the chip tightly, that is a good sign. I would put this on the list to replace if we can't figure this out.
Q2 - YES! Any socket that cannot hold a chip in place needs to be replaced. Even sockets that require less force to insert the chip are suspect. Replace the PIA socket!
Q3 - Yes, the display PIA on the driver can prevent the board set from booting.
Q4 - After the PIA chip, you can try the game ROM sockets. After that, you will need a logic probe to begin seeing whats going on to prevent booting.
Are you getting anything on the displays? Look closely at the displays, can you see any hints of orange glow in the glass? Best done with the lights off. Also, be careful with those displays - DO NOT touch them when they are on. There is 150V on those displays and that can hurt you.
Thanks for the kind words and the quick response! I was pretty bummed when the 40 pin didn't get it booting... nice to hear I'm not totally off the track.
The ROM sockets have been replaced. Two by me just now and the white one was put in when the board was converted from system 4 to run system 6 by adding the IC14 socket, so its presumably not quite as old. We seem to be in agreement that is is a lower priority, but might be an issue.
For clarity: The loose chip is IC10 on the *driver board* labeled PIA III Lamp Matrix. You mentioned 'display PIA', thats IC 18 on the MPU it looks like (this one is not socketed on my board)... Could a poorly seated chip on the *driver* board cause boot issues? Or can I leave that to check out when I get the game started and can see what the lamp matrix is doing?
The chip on the driver board seems well seated now (after I tweaked the legs wider). Should I still look at replacing it? It is a machine pin strip type socket, do those wear out? Seems like the legs on the chip would deform first... in which case replacing the chip might make more sense.
Displays: The player 1 and ball in play displays flash a 0 for half a second when I flip the power. There does appear to be an orange dot on the player 2 display, not on the others.
Thanks for the voltage warning, I got friendly with a 100v line the other week, not excited to try 150...
Sorry, wrong word on my part. A loose PIA on either board can cause the game not to boot by corrupting the data or address bus. I would replace IC10 socket.
The question on the display was just to confirm the display power supply is working, which it sounds like it is.
Replaced IC10 Socket, no change.
Anything else I should try now?
I feel like I should just get a logic probe and learn how to use it (and read schematics better) and actually isolate what component is not functioning. I'm getting tired of guessing wrong... Thoughts?
Sorry that didn't help. None of the work you have done so far is not needed. The sockets and 40 pin needed to be replaced for the reliability of the board.
Yes, it is time to get a logic probe. Probably a good idea to start your own troubleshooting thread. This way we stop plugging up the club thread and you can get more people helping.
Great idea, thanks.
Here's the new thread: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/help-blackout-wont-boot-learn-to-logic-probe#post-4323602
Hope you have time to chime in!
Wondering if anyone's done a rubber ring list and placement chart for Blackout. The ring kit I got from Marco has a diagram but it doesn't specify which ring goes where, and the ring list doesn't seem to match what's needed.
Well... the 40 pin was the problem. That and the bad game rom they sent me that had me chasing ghosts for a while. Anyways it works now, still one issue with flipper power:
I rebuilt the flippers completely, new Eos switches, new cabinet switches, brackets, stops, coils, mechs, bats, rubbers and they still seem weak to me. It’s really tough to line up an orbit shot right.
There is a black out on location here that is super snappy, you can backhand the upper 3 bank from the right flipper. On mine there is no chance of that, you can only get 75% of the way up the field at that angle. Is the machine on location overpowered with stronger solenoids, I like the way it plays better...
I’ll also try the return spring mod, seems like a good idea..
There is a ball hop issue in that side that may be contributing. Also, I think there are a few more pinned connections in the flipper circuit that I can check for solid contact, but after that I’m out of ideas.
Looking for hints and confirmation that some mystery factor is actually robbing some of the flipper power.
What location is this blackout?
Quoted from OwenKhan:Well... the 40 pin was the problem. That and the bad game rom they sent me that had me chasing ghosts for a while. Anyways it works now, still one issue with flipper power:
I rebuilt the flippers completely, new Eos switches, new cabinet switches, brackets, stops, coils, mechs, bats, rubbers and they still seem weak to me. It’s really tough to line up an orbit shot right.
There is a black out on location here that is super snappy, you can backhand the upper 3 bank from the right flipper. On mine there is no chance of that, you can only get 75% of the way up the field at that angle. Is the machine on location overpowered with stronger solenoids, I like the way it plays better...
I’ll also try the return spring mod, seems like a good idea..
There is a ball hop issue in that side that may be contributing. Also, I think there are a few more pinned connections in the flipper circuit that I can check for solid contact, but after that I’m out of ideas.
Looking for hints and confirmation that some mystery factor is actually robbing some of the flipper power.
Quoted from OwenKhan:Well... the 40 pin was the problem. That and the bad game rom they sent me that had me chasing ghosts for a while. Anyways it works now, still one issue with flipper power:
I rebuilt the flippers completely, new Eos switches, new cabinet switches, brackets, stops, coils, mechs, bats, rubbers and they still seem weak to me. It’s really tough to line up an orbit shot right.
There is a black out on location here that is super snappy, you can backhand the upper 3 bank from the right flipper. On mine there is no chance of that, you can only get 75% of the way up the field at that angle. Is the machine on location overpowered with stronger solenoids, I like the way it plays better...
I’ll also try the return spring mod, seems like a good idea..
There is a ball hop issue in that side that may be contributing. Also, I think there are a few more pinned connections in the flipper circuit that I can check for solid contact, but after that I’m out of ideas.
Looking for hints and confirmation that some mystery factor is actually robbing some of the flipper power.
Congrats on getting it going! That darn 40 pin is the cause more times than not.
The End of Stroke switch adjustment has a significant effect on flipper strength. Push the flipper pawl into the coil with your finger (do not push it in by moving the flipper bat or you will get a bad adjustment) and adjust the gap to be around 1/16 of an inch.
I’ve messed with the eos switches a bit. I’m pretty sure they’re right. I even tried jumper in them with alligator clips and didn’t see significant change. But I will check them again as I value your advice and may have missed something.
I just finished rebuilding a Blackout boardset for someone local. All new 40-pin connectors, removed, cleaned, fixed and reinstalled all the rest of the connectors. New 5watt resistors, new DIP sockets, and 8 zero ohm resistors for the switch matrix. 5101 was pulled and NVRAM installed.
Someone had messed with the reset circuit which I had to go back over. Odd thing was on the MPU the 6808 was bad. I rarely see those go bad.
Quoted from OwenKhan:I’ve messed with the eos switches a bit. I’m pretty sure they’re right. I even tried jumper in them with alligator clips and didn’t see significant change. But I will check them again as I value your advice and may have missed something.
If you don't get good power with the EOS jumpered, adjusting it is probably not the cause.
Next look at J3 (lower left on the power board) and J12 on the Driver board. At a minimum, reflow solder to these header pins or better yet, replace them. Look carefully at the connector for loose wires, replace with higher current trifuricon crimp-on style if they look questionable.
Remove fuse F4 from the power board and clean the ends with a green scrubby or steel wool. Inspect the fuse clips to make sure they are strong and grip the fuse tightly. Clean the fuse clips with a green scrubby best you can. Reinstall F4.
Last in the path is the connectors between the head and cabinet. Power leaves the power supply board at J3 (inspected above) and enters the playfield at 8P2. You can find this connector by tracing the wires from the power supply board. Ground connects to the driver board at J12 (inspected above) and enters the cabinet at 7J1 pins 7 and 9 and heads towards the flipper switches. From the flipper switches the signal again goes through 7J1 pins 8 and 10 then 8P3 to the flipper coils. Any one of these connections could be loose or corroded, causing weak flipper power.
Its a bit of a needle in a haystack. I would look at the connectors on the boards for bad solder joints and connections. If that's not it, you might just want to bump up your flipper coil strength.
Quoted from Pinstein:Club member, My second blackout now. Ive tweaked this one a bit.
Nice! Can you share the instruction card art files?
Quoted from Pinstein:Club member, My second blackout now. Ive tweaked this one a bit.
Omg that’s amazing!! Mind letting us know how you did that? I love my blackout was my first pinball.
I’m sure this is sacrilege, but I am planning on buying a Blackout next week. It will be in our front living room and I am slightly worried about the droning, increasing in pitch background sound. It sounds as though this is separate from he main game sounds. Can this be disconnected if need be before my wife banishes it to 110 degree summer heat in the garage?
Quoted from VacMetal:It sounds as though this is separate from he main game sounds. Can this be disconnected if need be before my wife banishes it to 110 degree summer heat in the garage?
Function #35 set to 12.
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/blackout-club-fans-welcome/page/7?hl=owenkhan and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.
Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.
Piershil
San Francisco, CA