Blackout
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Looks like your board is booting. With the coin door open and 495 on P1 display, quickly turn the game off and back on. You should enter attract mode.
495 is Blackout's game number and is what is displayed in P1 when the settings have been reset (due to dead or missing batteries).
Quoted from MaxAsh:Yep, sorry, was just commenting that the knocker solenoid worked (since none of the others seem to be).
I'm debating... with the game booting, and scoring, and most of the current issues seem to be solenoid related... I'm wondering if I should consider just trying to fix/replace the Driver board. Normally I do the 40-pin interconnect anyway. I'll post some pics, maybe you guys can weigh in on the feasibility of repair vs. replace.
The "battery" setup before I cut it off was... crazy.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
LOVE that "battery holder"!
Totally repairable IMO.
Pickup some MOSFETs to upgrade the lamp matrix drivers (will replace all the green transistors). Pick up new resistors (there is corrosion on their pads - best to replace them IMO), remove all lamp matrix components, scrub the area clean with vinegar, sand the mask off all the traces in the area that show signs of bubbling, rinse with distilled water, blow as much water as you can off with compressed air, let dry a day or 2, reassemble.
You might want to replace that PIA. It looks like it might have corrosion on some of the pins and traces near it.
New header pins all around, new connector below the green lamp matrix transistors.
Should be all set. Not all that much work with the proper tools.
The Williams 3-7 bullet proofing guide has the MOSFET info - plus lots of good advice on fixing these boards up.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-bulletproofing-williams-system-6#post-581854
Quoted from MaxAsh:Looks like I've still got some bugs to work out. It appears as though every few times I turn the machine on (after it's off a little while) it won't boot, and it will usually blow the solenoid 2.5A fuse when that happens. I hear a brief "click/knock" that sounds like a weak solenoid sound, so I'm guessing one of them is locking on at power up and holding until the fuse blows. It's not every time, so I'm curious what might be the cause.
I'm used to either a bad solenoid or transistor causing that. This intermittent fuse blowing thing isn't something I've seen as much. Thoughts?
Displays still on sometimes, off others, same process of reseating the associated power connector on the power supply board seems to fix it, so at least I know what the general issue is with that.
When you measured the resistance of the pop coil, did you have the special solenoid connector removed from the driver board? If not, the low resistance you measured could be from a shorted transistor on the driver board. Make sure to remove connections to the driver board when reading resistance.
Looks like you still have bad header pins in a couple places. I usually replace them all (MPU, Driver, Sound, Power supply) to bullet proof the boards. You can either buy the proper sized connectors for all the spots around the boards (looks nicer to me) or you can buy these and cut them to fit. https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=26-48-1245
For you intermittent solenoid issue at startup, that sounds like your blanking circuit isn't working properly. The blanking circuit should keep any solenoid or display from working until the CPU is running. Look in the area of IC23 on the schematics.
On Black Knight, there is a white with red strip wire that also needs to be there or the magnets will not work. The ground strap on that screw isn't part of any circuits on Blackout so attaching it is only for safety.
Remove the driver board connector special solenoid drive J12. Confirm the pop no longer locks on (if it does you have a wiring problem).
Remove the special switch input J13 from the driver board. If the pop still locks on, you most likely have a bad driver, pre-driver or gate on that circuit. If it no longer locks on, you have a switch or wiring problem or the capacitor on that pop has failed shorted.
Test the resistance of that coil, the diode and wiring (which side of the coil is wired to power) before replacing the driver transistor. Bad coils, bad or incorrectly wired diodes will blow the driver transistor.
Quoted from MaxAsh:Thanks! I grabbed my meter and did some continuity testing. One side of the GI path was good, but the other wasn't. I traced it back to the block connector between the head and playfield, and found one of the GI wires was mostly pulled out of the connector. I repinned and reseated it in the connector block, and the GI is back.
So I'm back to the primary issue at the moment: Left pop still locking on. I'll install the fuse saver board when it arrives, but given what I'm seeing, it will just blow that fuse once I install it. Since it's still locking on with J13 removed, schwaggs said it's the driver, pre-driver or gate. Testing the transistors shows the same readings as the other pop driver/pre-driver, but I know on-board testing cab be iffy. Not sure how to test the Gate?
Even harder to test the gate on the board. Try this -
Remove J12 (solenoid drive to the coils) - this will prevent the fuse from blowing while testing.
Make sure J13 is connected.
Put your meter (or Logic probe if you have one) on DC volts to measure around 5V. Black lead on ground strap.
Turn the game on and from attract mode -
Use the red lead to test the following pins
IC6 pin 1 - should be 5V
IC6 pin 2 - should be 5V
IC9 pin 1 - should be 0V (output)
IC9 Pin 2 - should be 5V
IC9 Pin 3 - should be 5V not in game and 0V when a game has been started
If all that checks out, replace the pre-driver and driver transistors.
If not, tell us where it is different.
Quoted from MaxAsh:Here are the results
IC6 pin 1 = 3.88 V
IC6 pin 2 = 5.00 V
IC9 pin 1 = 0.14 V (assuming effectively 0)
IC9 Pin 2 = 3.77 V
IC9 Pin 3 = 4.81 V (not in game) / 0.14 V (when a game has been started)
Assuming the low 0.14 reading is basically 0, then it looks like I've got an issue with a couple of readings that should be 5V that aren't.
Yes, .14V is the same as 0V
3.88 and 3.77V is problematic but the end result on IC9 pin 1 is correct. If you wanted to test this further, you could measure IC9 pin 1 when pushing the the pop skirt (triggering the pop switch). It should toggle from 0V (skirt not pressed) to 5V (skirt pressed).
All indications are it is the pre-driver and/or driver transistors.
OK, so to review - Locking on with J13 removed confirms the issue is on the board.
I misread your results from above. 0V at IC9 pin 1 will lock the transistors on. Sorry for sending you down that path...
Try these test - Remove J12, leave J13 connected
Measure IC6 pin 3 when pushing the the pop skirt (triggering the pop switch). It should toggle from 5V (skirt not pressed) to 0V (skirt pressed)
If that does not toggle, measure IC6 pin 2 when pushing the the pop skirt. It should toggle from 5V (skirt not pressed) to 0V (skirt pressed)
Measure IC6 pin 10 (no need to toggle the skirt for this test).
Remeasure IC6 pin 1 (no need to toggle the skirt for this test).
Quoted from MaxAsh:Okay, here are the Results:
IC6 pin 3 (skirt not pressed) = 3.79V
IC6 pin 3 (skirt pressed) = 0.08V
IC6 pin 2 (skirt not pressed) = 5.00V
IC6 pin 2 (skirt pressed) = 0.00V
IC6 pin 10 = 4.97VIC6 pin 1 = 3.90V
Guessing the ones in bold are not good, and should be 5V instead. Do you think that's part of the issue?
Exactly.
IC6 pin 1 should be 5v and IC6 pin 3 should be 5V when the skirt is not pressed too. Hard to tell if its a bad PIA IC10 or bad IC6 7408. My money is on IC6 but if the PIA is socketed, you could try it first. If IC10 is socketed along with another, you can try swapping them to see if the problem changes.
Quoted from MaxAsh:Had some time tonight, went ahead and
socketed/replaced IC6 (7408N) and it worked! I'll do more testing in the morning when I can make more noise without waking the rest of the house, but the Pop isn't locking on anymore, and when I started a game, I was able to trigger it normally.
The only sidenote is that I tested the voltages on IC6 Pin 1 & 3, and neither is 5V still. They are higher though, and tested at 3.99V and 4.43V respectively. Not sure if that means there might still be an issue, but for now it's working.Any concerns with that?
Next Issue: Drop Targets.
They're resetting on ball drain, which is good. Previously, neither row was scoring or resetting during ball-in-play, so I took the center 3 target apart and cleaned it. The wiper contacts were dirty, as were the drop contact points on the boards. I cleaned them up, and reassembled. If I knock down the 2nd or 3rd target, no scoring occurs, and they stay down. Hitting the 1st drop target (furthest left) resets the entire group, even if the 2nd and 3rd drop are still up. After a short delay, the game awards some points. Thoughts as to why knocking down the first target always resets the row, regardless of the status of the other two targets? I'll try cleaning the back row of drops next.
So sorry this is being a pain to figure out...
Can you measure IC6 pins 8 and 14? Both should be around 5V.
Did you say IC10 is socketed? Is it by chance AMI brand?
The drop targets can be tricky to get cleaned and adjusted properly. The contacts need enough tension to make contact but not too much tension that it stops the drops from dropping. You can clean the traces on the boards with fine sand paper. I used a very light coat of dielectric grease on the boards to prevent oxidation and reduce friction.
All the drops and boards need to make contact when down in order for the bank reset switch to close. You may have a wiring problem between the boards since the bank will reset with only one target dropped.
Quoted from MaxAsh:schwaggs No problem, I really appreciate all the help. Thank you for coming back and giving advice!
IC6 Pin 8 = 4.34V
IC6 Pin 14 = 5.01VIC10 is not socketed on this board, sadly. It is a Motorola Brand 6821
For the drops, I'll try cleaning them again, and do a little testing when I do. I'll also try cleaning the back drop target bank to see if I get better results.
Pin 14 is power supply to IC6 and it looks perfect.
Pin 8 is another output and looks to be around the same voltage as the output you are working on (IC6 pin 3). Odd both outputs are so low in such a simple circuit.
Can you remeasure the IC6 Pins 1 and 2 now that you replaced it?
The problem seems like low/weak output on the IC10 PIA. It could also be the inputs to IC8/IC9 pulling the output low. Feels like the PIA to me as the the circuit with IC8 is working.
Quoted from MaxAsh:IC6 pin 1 = 3.96V
IC6 pin2 = 5.00V
Other readings for reference:
IC10 pin 19 = 3.97V
IC6 pin 6 = 4.35V
IC6 pin 11 = 4.35V
IC7 pin 11 = 3.81V
IC8 pin 5 = 4.34V
IC8 pin 9 = 4.34V
IC8 pin 12 = 4.34V
IC9 pin 2 = 4.34V
IC9 pin 5 = 3.82V
So is IC10 pin 19 not putting out enough power? Or is something pulling that low, further downstream?
It seems that if I unplug J12 and leave the game on for a while, then turn it off, plug in J12, and turn it back on, the pop doesn't lock on usually. Almost like "warming the game up" eliminates the issue. The above readings don't change, so when the pop is locking vs. not locking, they remain the same. Weird.
Did you replace IC6 with an actual 7408 or was it a 74LS08 or different family?
From your measurements, all the outputs are similarly low, which is weird since they all drive a single input down the line.
Can you measure IC6 1, 4, 10, 13 - those are all the IC6 inputs from the PIAs. Earlier you measured 1 and 10 and they were different. If all the others are 5V and only pin 1 is lower, I think the next step should be to replace the PIA.
Those voltage readings are really weird. At this point I would replace IC6 or the PIA IC10. Hard to tell which one is the problem with those readings.
Quoted from MaxAsh:Replace IC6 again? The readings were similar for the original IC6 I think, so I guess IC10 should be next. Larger chip, but I do have a spare socket that size. I could steal the 6821 from another board and see if that helps.
I still don't get why letting it "warm up" with the plug removed resolves the issue. So bizarre.
Sorry, I meant IC9 (downstream from IC6)
Can you confirm we are on the right circuit? When you get it in the working state, quickly tap a wire connected to ground to the tab of driver transistor Q2. If the pop in question fires, we are working in the right place. If it does not fire, try the same test on the other special solenoid driver transistors until you find the right driver transistor.
Quoted from MaxAsh:schwaggs Q2 confirmed, we're in the right place
Do you think I should consider replacing IC9 first then?
Cool. Yes, I would try IC9 next
Quoted from MaxAsh:Damn, okay. I assume that's another 7408. I think I'm out of those, I'll have to check.
IC9 is a 7402
Quoted from MaxAsh:In Strange news...
Ah, so it is, thank you! Don't think I have one, so I'll have to order. g-p-e I assume this one over at GPE will work fine: https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=7402
Wondering if I should just make a general shopping list for a couple other items. I don't see the IC10 PIA available there though. I welcome suggestions on a few things to pre-buy just in case (aside from some more transistors since I'm running low)
Edit: Just because the game wants to mess with me, the Pop hasn't locked on in about 12 hours. Weird. The downside is that the left kicker (Q8, Solenoid 20) isn't working now. It was the only transistor that had corrosion on the metal tab, so it doesn't really surprise me I guess. Grounding the tab fires the kicker, so wiring is good. Guess I should replace the driver/pre-driver.
Well thats troubling. Is there any corrosion on the board itself? Dark traces, etc?
Not that I usually shop there but Jameco has both chips and probably the transistors and sockets. https://www.jameco.com/shop/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=10001&productId=43596
Also check the header pins while you have the board out. A cold solder joint on J4 or any of the ground pins can cause this too.
Quoted from MaxAsh:I unplugged 10J4 and jumpered pins 1 & 2. Still have the hum. The volume was slightly higher for the in-game sounds, but not as loud as I would expect max volume to be.
All the sound board screws are in place. Would it be worthwhile to remove the board and sand the contact points between the back of the board and the backbox frame, just to ensure good contact? I reflowed all the headers when I did the cap kit. Is there something else I'm missing? I would love to get rid of this hum, it's my final issue.
Did you replace all the electrolytic caps on the sound board including the 1uf caps on the main sound board and the speech board?
Try adjusting the balance pot on the speech board. With the game off, move it across its entire range 5-10 times then leave it in the middle and test again. Sometimes if this pot gets dirty, you can experience low or scratchy volume. You use this pot to adjust the relative volume between sounds and speech callouts.
Quoted from MaxAsh:Disconnecting the speech cable from the main sound board eliminates the hum (and other sounds drop to a whisper, probably because of the dip switch setting you mentioned). I tried moving the balance pot back and forth several times, didn't affect the hum.
Is it safe to assume that means the hum issue is on the speech board? I didn't know I would have to recap that (kit didn't include anything for it).
C12 10uf 20v is in the sound path on the speech board and should be replaced.
Does moving the balance pot with the game on result in scratchy audio? Does it change the balance?
If you jumper J1 on the main sound board you will eliminate the speech board from the circuit. You will only get sounds, not speech in this config. If you want to try it, I would replace C12 before spending time on this.
Quoted from MaxAsh:trk12fire Unplugging the volume control wire completely (and jumpering pins 1&2 for max volume) doesn't get rid of the hum, so I don't think it's the volume pot or wiring, unfortunately. I checked the speaker and the wires were soldered on (looked original). I reflowed them, no change. Since unplugging the speech board from the setup eliminates the hum, guessing it's somewhere in that area.
schwaggs Replaced C12 on the Speech board, no change sadly. Please let me know what you wanted me to try next, not sure what you meant on the jumpering idea. Thanks
Well nuts, thought the cap would have helped.
You are right, the jumper is W1. It should be removed on games WITH speech (it should be out on your board). If you jumper that, disconnect the speech board you should get full volume game sounds if the problem is on the speech board.
Did you measure the power supply levels on the main sound board? You should have a +12V unregulated (12 to 14ish), -12V unregulated (-12 to -15ish) and a +5v regulated (should be right at 5v). Measure these on the sound board as it has it's own power supply different from the rest of the game.
Interesting progress!
The sound and speech board uses separate power and ground bus for running analog components and digital components. Both supplies are derived by the same power supply on the main sound board but they are separated at output of the power supply section to avoid the noise of the digital components from making it into the audio stream. One possible cause might be a bad connection between the main and speech boards on the analog power supply.
Remove W1 and reconnect the speech board.
Turn the game on and measure the following voltage levels:
Main sound board:
One probe on the ground braid and the other on negative lead of C27 (the biggest cap) - This should be very close to zero
One probe on the negative lead of C27 and the other on the positive side of C27 - should be 12 to 14V
One probe on the negative lead of C27 and the other on the positive side of C25 - should be 5V
One probe on the negative lead of C27 and the other on the negative side of C26 - should be -12 to 14V
On the voice board:
One probe on the negative lead of C27 on the main sound board and the other on pin 8 of IC1 on the voice board - this should be very close to zero
One probe on the negative lead of C27 on the main sound board and the other on pin 16 of IC1 on the voice board - this should be very close to 5V
One probe on the negative lead of C27 on the main sound board and the other on pin 4 of IC2 or IC3 on the voice board - this should be very close to -12V
One probe on the negative lead of C27 on the main sound board and the other on pin 12 of one of the ROM chips on the voice board - this should be very close to zero
One probe on the negative lead of C27 on the main sound board and the other on pin 24 of one of the ROM chips on the voice board - this should be very close to 5V
Quoted from MaxAsh:schwaggs So I went through the list, and I ran into a couple of discrepancies. Could you clarify when you have a moment?
IC1 on the Speech board is a 14-pin chip. In your test suggestions, you have be testing pin 16 on IC1, which doesn't exist. You also asked me to test Pin 8, which appears to be Ground (GND). Not sure if that's what you wanted, so I thought I'd double-check.
Here are the results from everything I was able to test. I highlighted things outside of the ranges you stated in
bold
Main sound board:
Ground braid to NEG lead of C27 = 0 VDC
NEG (-) lead of C27 to POS (+) lead C27 =
11.79 VDC
NEG lead of C27 to POS lead C25 = 4.91 VDC
NEG lead of C27 to NEG lead C26 = -13.33 VDC
On the voice board:
NEG lead of C27 main sound board to pin 8 of IC1 on the voice board = 0 VDC
(pin 8 is Ground)
NEG lead of C27 main sound board to pin 16 of IC1 on the voice board =
Pin 16 does not exist
NEG lead of C27 main sound board to pin 4 of IC2 or IC3 on the voice board = -13.33 VDC
NEG lead of C27 main sound board to pin 12 of one of the ROM chips on the voice board = 0 VDC (on all ROM chips)
NEG lead of C27 main sound board to pin 24 of one of the ROM chips on the voice board =
2.46 VDC(on all ROM chips)
[quoted image]
Interesting - your System 6 schematic is different than mine. IC1 is listed as a 16 pin chip on mine.... In any event... 
Measure from ground to pin 8 of either IC2 or IC3. This should be close to 5V and is the Analog 5V supply.
2.46v on the ROM chips pin 24 is not good. It should be close to 5V. Are you getting all the correct voices out of the board, even if they are very quiet? Are any of the ROM chips getting warm? Can you check for any bent pins that might be shorting?
Can you try removing all the roms from the voice board, starting the game and seeing of the hum is still there? Also, measure pin 24 of the empty socket to see if it is closer to 5V with the ROMs removed? Add one ROM at a time back to the board (with the game off please) and see when the voltage drops?
It seems either one of these ROMS is drawing too much power or the digital power pins in the ribbon cable is not making a good connection.
OK, those voltages sound better - no need to try pulling ROM chips.
Can you list out all the capacitors (by cap number on the schematic) you have replaced?
Try replacing C29 - 10uf 25V
That is another capacitor in the audio path that should have been in your cap kit.
Quoted from MaxAsh:C29 replaced... no luck. I really appreciate you sticking with this and trying to help with the mystery @schwaggs . Hopefully we can track it down!
Nuts.
So you have good voltage and ground readings on the speech board.
Nothing changes when you remove the boards from the backbox mounts (floating the boards)
All the electrolytic caps have been replaced.
The hum goes away when the speech board is not in the circuit. (problem must be on the speech board)
This covers all the common failure points. Lets dig a little deeper and see if you can find the point where the hum is generated.
Put your meter on AC. One lead on ground. With the game idle (not playing any sounds, just humming), measure the voltage at the following spots:
Negative side of C29 on the main board - this is analog audio out
IC3 pin 1 on the speech board - speech filter stage
IC3 pin 7 on the speech board - speech filter stage
IC2 pin 7 on the speech board - analog and speech mixer output
Also, have a look at C1 on the speech board. Has it been replaced or worked on in the past? It is a tantalum capacitor from the factory. They usually last forever and very rarely fail but it can happen.
Quoted from Robotworkshop:Have you checked the bridge rectifier? I don't think bridges just go bad as often as people think but I have had to replace one before on one of these sound boards. If a diode in it opened up then it will only end up being a half wave by bridge and you will probably get more hum.
I thought of that too. However when the speech board isn't connected, the board works perfectly so I skipped that. It still might be the problem but I think it is a remote chance...
Quoted from MaxAsh:Including a pic of C1 on the Speech board, looks original.
Here are the results of testing (game on, attract mode, no sound just the humming):
Negative side of C29 on the main board - this is analog audio out = 0 VAC
IC3 pin 1 on the speech board - speech filter stage = 0 VAC
IC3 pin 7 on the speech board - speech filter stage = 0 VAC
IC2 pin 7 on the speech board - analog and speech mixer output = 0VAC[quoted image]
It does look original.
None of those readings are pointing to a problem. I only have guesses left on what the problem might be.
1) Tantalum capacitor C1
2) IC2 and IC3 on the speech board
3) Replace BR1 on the main sound board as Robotworkshop suggested
Anyone else watching along have suggestions?
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Chicago, IL