(Topic ID: 134859)

Black Knight solenoid locked on

By Chosen_S

8 years ago


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image.jpg
BK_solenoid.png
BK_lwr_left_target_solenoid_drive.png
#1 8 years ago

Hey guys, working on my black knight.
This has been a year long project, clear coated pf, complete tear down and rebuild.

Recently, I was blowing the solenoid fuse, and I couldn't find the culprit, so I decided it was time to replace the 40 pin connector, the male and female, I checked my work on top and bottom, every pin gets continuity with the next point on the pcb

Now the bottom left target solenoid is locked on.

I check the wiring, Nothing crossed or grounded. the corresponding transistor is not shorted, the coil ohms at 2.7 ohms

Any ideas on what to check from here?

#2 8 years ago

Depending on your driver board version, the driver/predriver trannies are:

Rev D7997 = Q17/Q16

Rev D8341 = Q8/Q7

Without probing the logic, I would replace the transistor pair for the board rev in your game (TIP122/2N4401).

#3 8 years ago

The diode on your coil maybe shot. But as Cody mentioned transistors first.

#4 8 years ago

Thank you gentlemen, I'll report back

#5 8 years ago

Yes, there's probably a reason the tranny shorted, and a failing coil diode is a likely candidate. Replace it too, IMO.

#6 8 years ago

I replaced all 3, still locking. (Confirmed correct transistor and pre driver)

To test, and isolate , I removed the driver wire (gray - red stripe) and placed that wire on another drop target coil (after removing the other drop target coils driver wire) , then power on, this coil locks also. Removed wire, replaced original wire, the coil functions properly

#7 8 years ago

Well done.

#8 8 years ago

Possibly a bad buffer chip @ IC1. A logic probe would help diagnosis.

#9 8 years ago

Thank you

Quoted from cody_chunn:

Possibly a bad buffer chip @ IC1. A logic probe would help diagnosis.

Thank you here too, I was about to drown myself in the schematics, I hate how this pcb is not labeled, I'm terrible with schematics

#10 8 years ago

I replaced the 7408, 14 pin chip and the problem persists.

#11 8 years ago

If they are socketed, you can switch the PIA at IC5 (from memory that is the one for Solenoids) with another PIA and see if the problem moves.

#12 8 years ago

Only one them of them is socketed :/
Guess I could replace the PIA while I'm at it

#13 8 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

If they are socketed, you can switch the PIA at IC5 (from memory that is the one for Solenoids) with another PIA and see if the problem moves.

will this work? Thanks for your help vid!

ebay.com link: EF68B21P Peripheral Interface Adapter PIA DIP40

#14 8 years ago

Anyone else know if the ebay link to that PIA will work?
Bump

#15 8 years ago

hehe, nevermind, found them at Jameco for a little less

1 week later
#16 8 years ago

I replaced the 6821 PIA and socketed it and The coil is still locking on.

Please help, I'm at my wits end

Thank you

#17 8 years ago

Maybe check the 7402 near that 7408 you already replaced?

#18 8 years ago

We need a logic probe to trace back the HI/LO triggers....

#19 8 years ago

On what you re-pinned. Did you solder bridge any connections?
Drop a small amount of solder somewhere on the board? It happened to me.
I now use a lighted diopter! Someday I hope they can replace eyes
with the Steve Austin type.

Milton

#20 8 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

We need a logic probe to trace back the HI/LO triggers....

I have a logic probe, but I'd need a way to see what to follow.

Quoted from Milton187:

On what you re-pinned. Did you solder bridge any connections?
Drop a small amount of solder somewhere on the board? It happened to me.
Milton

I guess it's possible, I'll have to do a thorough investigation, I always check all of my work, if I dropped solder somewhere and bridged a connection, it's somewhere else on the board, not the pins, they were proper

#21 8 years ago

I'm assuming your board rev utilizes Q17 for the lower left target bank.

Before powering up game, remove solenoid fuse F2.

Set probe to TTL.
Connect red lead of logic probe to TP9 on CPU board. Connect black lead to TP10.
Probe TP9; you should get a HI reading.

Now probe IC1 pins 12, 11 (inputs) and 13 (output). What are the states of these three pins?

BK lwr left target solenoid drive.pngBK lwr left target solenoid drive.png

#22 8 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

I'm assuming your board rev utilizes Q17 for the lower left target bank.
Before powering up game, remove solenoid fuse F2.
Set probe to TTL.
Connect red lead of logic probe to TP9 on CPU board. Connect black lead to TP10.
Probe TP9; you should get a HI reading.
Now probe IC1 pins 12, 11 (inputs) and 13 (output). What are the states of these three pins?
BK lwr left target solenoid drive.png

TP9 = hi

IC1
Pin11 low
12 low
13 hi

#23 8 years ago

If my understanding of the circuit is correct, those are the correct signals for solenoid OFF.

Just to verify, let's look at the signal for the lower right bank, Q19. Its control signal is IC1 pin 6. The inputs are pins 4 and 5. Pin 5 will be HI. I am expecting pin 4 to be LO and pin 6 to be LO.

What do you see there? Sorry I'm not better educated.

#24 8 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

If my understanding of the circuit is correct, those are the correct signals for solenoid OFF.
Just to verify, let's look at the signal for the lower right bank, Q19. Its control signal is IC1 pin 6. The inputs are pins 4 and 5. Pin 5 will be HI. I am expecting pin 4 to be LO and pin 6 to be LO.
What do you see there? Sorry I'm not better educated.

your better at this than I am I'll look as soon as I get home, thank you for diving in!

#25 8 years ago

Ic1 pin6 low
5 high
4 low

#26 8 years ago

All right, since the lower right bank solenoid does not lock on at startup, those signals are correct and the solenoid should remain OFF. Since this is not the case and the solenoid is locking ON at startup, the problem is 'down stream' from IC1. I would be looking at replacing the driver Q17 and pre-driver Q16.

Since the input to Q16 (IC1 pin 11) is LO, it should be biased OFF. Probe the Emitter of Q16, or its junction with R34. A LO here should be present to keep solenoid OFF.

BK solenoid.pngBK solenoid.png

The emitter is the right-hand lead in the blue circle.

#27 8 years ago

Hey, verify I'm telling you the right thing by probing the emitter of Q18...

1 week later
#28 8 years ago

Cody, I'm so sorry I missed this post somehow, I'll check Monday when I'm back with my game

On a side note, I replaced the coil, didn't help, I really didn't expect it to lol

#29 8 years ago

The first thing I did when I discovered the issue was replace Q16, and Q17, maybe one of them could still be bad?

#30 8 years ago

No problem. That's why we need to probe the emitter of Q18...to make sure we are looking for the right signals.

1 month later
#31 8 years ago

Finally I'm back , sorry for the long absence...

Q16 left low

Q16 middle low

Q16 right low

Q18 left high
Q18 middle low
Q18 right low

All of the Q's are acting normally except q16 and q17, and r33

The top of r33 is normal when compared to the rest of the corresponding r's

But the bottom of r33 is abnormal to the rest of the bottom of the corresponding r's

#32 8 years ago

Check value fo R33...should be 68 ohms. Compare to 36 & 39. I will have to refresh myself on this circuit and see what those signals indicate.

#33 8 years ago

68 ohms is correct, all 3 are at 67.4

Probing :
R33 top high
Bottom low

R36 top high
Bottom high

R39 top high
Bottom high

image.jpgimage.jpg

#34 8 years ago

I'm no EE but based on my layman knowledge it sure sounds like Q16 is turning on by itself. I would replace that 2N4401 again and retest...

...unless someone else reading has a better understanding than I?

#35 8 years ago

So, I replaced it again, same thing... I ordered 2n 4401's from Marco a while back... But they sent 2n5401's

So that's what I'm using... I don't know if that's a good thing or not

#36 8 years ago

I dug through my parts and found A 4401 , put it in.....

And...

It works!!!!!!!!

Thank you thank you thank you Cody!

#37 8 years ago

You are most welcome. Sorry to took so long to slog through. Gotta watch those part subs!

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