(Topic ID: 252881)

Black knight lower eject hole doesn't register?

By CoinGuyNinja

4 years ago


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  • 20 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Schwaggs
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 4 years ago

Hey everyone,

Just recently bought my first pin, a 1980 black Knight! I've been having some issues trying to track down an issue with the lower eject hole not working. It's the multi-ball eject to be specific. The leaf switch registers when a ball is there, but I never get an eject. I tested the resistance on the solenoid and I am getting around 3.8 ohms, so I don't think it's an issue, maybe power? I can go into test mode and when solenoid 8 is tested, nothing happens, all other solenoids do not have this issue. I'm thinking this could be a driver problem or some advise to fix this issue. any help is appreciated, for right now I'm a bit of a noob

#2 4 years ago

Does it register in switch test? If it doesn't, the coil will never eject it. Switches on black knight do not directly activate solenoids (except for the special solenoids, the pop bumper, and the 2 slings). The game software has to see the switch and make a decision as to what to do (score and eject, start multiball, etc. in the case of the bottom saucer on BK)

Oh, and in case you are tempted, DO NOT adjust the switch with the power switch turned on. It is very easy on that era game to short your switch adjuster to something it shouldn't, and blow up chips. Not a cheap mistake.

#3 4 years ago

Can you ground it out from the coil tabs or from the transistor to make it activate?

If all other coils are working during the test, my guess it is is a problem with the transistor on the driver board.

#4 4 years ago
Quoted from slochar:

Does it register in switch test? If it doesn't, the coil will never eject it. Switches on black knight do not directly activate solenoids (except for the special solenoids, the pop bumper, and the 2 slings). The game software has to see the switch and make a decision as to what to do (score and eject, start multiball, etc. in the case of the bottom saucer on BK)
Oh, and in case you are tempted, DO NOT adjust the switch with the power switch turned on. It is very easy on that era game to short your switch adjuster to something it shouldn't, and blow up chips. Not a cheap mistake.

I'm not sure I follow, if I put a ball in the hole the game senses it, but it never ejects the ball. Are you saying there are 2 switches? 1 for the multi-ball and another to eject it?

In switch test none of the switches stay open as it goes through all of them, in solenoid test the lower eject (#8) never pops the ball out .

#5 4 years ago
Quoted from CoinGuyNinja:

I'm not sure I follow, if I put a ball in the hole the game senses it, but it never ejects the ball. Are you saying there are 2 switches? 1 for the multi-ball and another to eject it?
In switch test none of the switches stay open as it goes through all of them, in solenoid test the lower eject (#8) never pops the ball out .

Switch working ball not ejecting cpu is recognizing the is a ball in the eject hole:

Suspect driverboard fault confirm there isn't a break in the ground signal going to the coil.
Attach a wire to a ground or backbox frame momentary touch the wire to transistor # 8 tab, check if coil fires.

williams-system-7-driver-board_1_63633cc02b9de785815fb008109b954b (resized).jpgwilliams-system-7-driver-board_1_63633cc02b9de785815fb008109b954b (resized).jpg
#6 4 years ago
Quoted from CoinGuyNinja:

I'm not sure I follow, if I put a ball in the hole the game senses it, but it never ejects the ball. Are you saying there are 2 switches? 1 for the multi-ball and another to eject it?
In switch test none of the switches stay open as it goes through all of them, in solenoid test the lower eject (#8) never pops the ball out .

No, just one switch. I see from the original message I missed the part where you said the game senses it.

The solenoid is solely under the game program control... follow what pintec is telling you to trouble shoot this.

#7 4 years ago
Quoted from PINTEC:

Switch working ball not ejecting cpu is recognizing the is a ball in the eject hole:
Suspect driverboard fault confirm there isn't a break in the ground signal going to the coil.
Attach a wire to a ground or backbox frame momentary touch the wire to transistor # 8 tab, check if coil fires.[quoted image]

Thank you for the suggestion, I'll try that and report back.

Speaking of which, how did you know which one of those goes to that solenoid? Would be useful for future reference on this game of mine with future repairs.

#8 4 years ago
Quoted from CoinGuyNinja:

Speaking of which, how did you know which one of those goes to that solenoid? Would be useful for future reference on this game of mine with future repairs.

The solenoid table in the manual (Table 4, page 16 in the pdf) shows Lower Eject Hole as solenoid 8. It also shows Q29 as one of the driver transistors which shows up in section 8 on the driver board schematics (page 29 in the pdf).

#9 4 years ago
Quoted from CoinGuyNinja:

Thank you for the suggestion, I'll try that and report back.
Speaking of which, how did you know which one of those goes to that solenoid? Would be useful for future reference on this game of mine with future repairs.

https://www.ipdb.org/files/310/Williams_1980_Black_Knight_English_Manual_with_paginated_schematics.pdf

#10 4 years ago

thanks a ton kind sir . I have one more question, are these solenoids like fuel injectors where power is going to them all the time but ground is what activates them from the driver board?

#11 4 years ago

exactly right.

1 month later
#12 4 years ago

Just wanted to update, the coil does fire when it's in attract mode and is grounded out. Looks like this might be a driver problem and/or a cabling issue with the ground which I will test next.

As far as parts to buy, I've read there is a pre-driver and the driver (transistor) itself. Is this the right transistor to get? From the manual it looks like 5A-8977, but do I need a resistor to replace on top of that or anything additional?

https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/TIP120

#13 4 years ago

anyone confirm on the pre-driver and transistor I need to replace?

#14 4 years ago
Quoted from CoinGuyNinja:

anyone confirm on the pre-driver and transistor I need to replace?

Q29 - (TIP120) driver, Q28 - (2N4401) pre-driver

2 months later
#15 4 years ago

Not to bring a thread back from the dead, but I finally got around to testing this machine. So grounding out the transistor does NOT fire the solenoid, but grounding the solenoid out does.

I also tested the transistor from steps here:

https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=General#Testing_a_Transistor.2C_Silicon_Controlled_Rectifier_.28SCR.29_or_Field_Effect_Transistor_.28FET.29

and the transistor tested good. So now I think I'm having a physical connection problem with ground to the solenoid.

Any tips/tricks into finding the broken wire (if there is one)? I'm starting at the connectors first, but when doing a connectivity test, multiple pins "beep" so just looking for some guidance here.

Thank you in advance!

#16 4 years ago

Here's what I've found so far, GRY-BLK all the way to the solenoid.

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#17 4 years ago

So I traced down the wires but this one wht/red (I think?) was connected to the ground strap at the base of the head.

Connectivity was good from both connectors to the solenoid but I'm not sure if this why/red is supposed to be connected to the grounding strap as you see me point out in the photos.

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#18 4 years ago

Nevermind about the wht/red wire, found the answer here.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/black-knight-clubmembers-only/page/4

Now about the transistor not firing although it tested good, what should I do next? Pull the driver board and look at traces?

#19 4 years ago

Check wire continuity from the driver board connection all the way to the coil, may be a break in the wire somewhere.

-Hans

#20 4 years ago
Quoted from CoinGuyNinja:

Nevermind about the wht/red wire, found the answer here.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/black-knight-clubmembers-only/page/4
Now about the transistor not firing although it tested good, what should I do next? Pull the driver board and look at traces?

There are several connectors in the path from the driver board to that coil on BK. You need to check.

The first is at the driver board - check for cold solder joints on the header pins and lose IDC connection
Then the connector between the batckbox and cabinet. Check for lose pins, corrosion, bad crimps, etc
Then the connector between the upper and lower play fields. Same things to check as above

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