(Topic ID: 102615)

Black Knight LE (1980) Left Flippers Not Working

By frunch

9 years ago


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  • 19 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 years ago by frunch
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 9 years ago

I'm helping a buddy of mine get his Black Knight LE fixed up, and the left side flippers stopped working. Right side flippers work fine, though. I did nearly everything I could think of to get the flippers working...here's what I've tried so far:

-New cab switch (for upper and lower left flippers)
-New header pins on 2J10 and new female connector w/ trifurcon connector pins
-New coil diodes for upper and lower flipper coils (triple-checked diode orientation to make sure I didn't mess it up, the diodes that were originally on the coils checked good w/ my meter but replaced them anyway)
-Cleaned/filed contacts on flipper relay on driver board
-Cleaned/adjusted EOS switches for both flippers
-Checked flipper coils (out of circuit) and got approximately the same readings on both: middle lug to non-banded side of diode lug: 23.5 ohms, middle lug to banded side of diode lug: 1.0 ohm, banded lug to non-banded lug: 24.5 ohms. I believe that means the flipper coils are ok.

Now here's what gets me: there is approximately 32 VDC at each of the left side coils, on all 3 lugs. The voltage to the right side coils (which again, are working) may be a volt higher, but it's very close to the voltage I'm getting on the left ones. I tried grounding the right side upper flipper coil very quickly using an alligator clip on the non-banded side of the flipper coil diode (the ground side) and it fired (I had touched the other end of the alligator clip to one of the cabinet side rails). Tried the same thing on the upper left flipper coil--nothing. It appears that the voltage is there, but even grounding the coil directly isn't firing it! I think I may need to try this test again, it just doesn't make sense to me that it wouldn't fire that way.

I feel that I've exhausted nearly every possibility, so I was hoping to find some help here. I'm at the point now that I think I need to double-check all my work from yesterday to make sure I didn't mess up something else while trying to fix the problem. I did check any board work I did with the 2J10 connector and flipper relay to make sure I had continuity for each trace from each solder joint to wherever it went to. After all the work we did on the game, the right flippers continue to work fine, and we still had about 32 VDC at each of the non-working flipper coils.

Like I said, I'm going to double-check all the work I did so far to make sure I didn't mess something up while servicing the game. Also, I presume the LE version of this game should not behave any differently than a non-LE version but figured I'd specify that it is an LE in case that makes any difference.

Any suggestions where to start looking next?

Thanks for any and all help!
Trevor

#2 9 years ago

Have you tested the transistor that fires that flipper?

#3 9 years ago

On BK, the coils are grounded through a relay on the driver board. The only transistor in the equation is the one that turns on the relay. That transistor must be working, as the relay is turning on.

#4 9 years ago

Is the cover still on that relay? Sometimes they're missing. If the contacts are corroded, it may not be making a good connection. The little switch will still click back and forth, but it may not be allowing any current through.

#5 9 years ago

What about cross-wiring the flippers temporarily, driving the left flippers from the right side? If you did that from the driver board, could you prove out the playfield side that way? If I am understanding my schematic correctly, there isn't much to this circuit. Since the right flippers work, that would seem to imply that Q13 and IC8 are OK since they drive the relay. Voltage to the coils is good, and your coils ohm out the same as the ones I just replaced when I put in all-new flipper mechs, so they seem fine too.

It does sound like something may not be flowing enough current to drive the flippers, even though voltage is reaching them, and that relay does have multiple sets of contacts per the schematic. Might be that, or perhaps a bad wire that touches enough to pass voltage but not high current. Something like that maybe?

It is an odd one! I'll be interested in seeing what the resolution is.

Dave

#6 9 years ago

Is it possible that the relay may have a cracked solder joint. Or possibly the connector pin has a bad solder joint.

#7 9 years ago

Good suggestions! As far as the relay, I removed the cover (what a pain in the ass it was to remove that little cover!) to clean and file the contacts on the 4 switches the relay activates, then put the cover back on. While the cover was off, I checked for continuity for each switch while my buddy held the relays armature down. All 4 switches tested good. That obviously doesn't rule out the relay entirely-the contacts for the left flippers may not be closing properly when the relay is activated electrically. I'll have to figure out a way to test the continuity of the relay switches while the game activates the relay. Would it be worth trying to ground another coil through the left flipper ground at the 2J10 connector? That could at least tell me that the relay is working, creating a good ground for the left flippers. Right?

#8 9 years ago

Newtoit: I did re-flow solder to the relay solder terminals on the driver board and tested all board traces to/from relay for continuity (they all checked out). I also put new male and female connectors at 2J10, where the relay switches ultimately lead to.

#9 9 years ago
Quoted from Toyguy:

It does sound like something may not be flowing enough current to drive the flippers, even though voltage is reaching them, and that relay does have multiple sets of contacts per the schematic. Might be that, or perhaps a bad wire that touches enough to pass voltage but not high current. Something like that maybe?

Thanks for this response! It really got me thinking: maybe I've got good/better ground now, but the wiring and connectors carrying the voltage to the coils is where the problem is! Even though my meter is reading about 32-33 volts, what if it's not capable of carrying enough current!

To test the idea, and to continue to study the flipper circuit, I opened up my Black Knight at home. I checked out the connector for the flipper coil power coming off the Power Supply board, I think at connector J3. Either way, I discovered that the header pins carrying the 38 volts DC for the flippers on *my* BK had a semi-burnt pin for the left flippers! I pulled the board, installed new header pins and a female connector in the backbox, put it back together and wouldn't you know it--my left flippers became stronger and more consistent! Heck, even the right flippers seem better now, too! The 38 volts going to the flippers comes from the same source, but goes out the left side and right side flippers on their own circuits. That's why the voltage readings for the right and left side were slightly different on my buddy's game, and mine too.

So I'm nearly convinced now that the problem on my buddy's game has to do with the connections bringing the voltage -to- the flippers. I'll replace the m&f connectors on the power supply board and check the connectors on whichever backbox-to-cabinet connector (I think it's one of the big 34-pin ones) is bringing the voltage to the flippers. If that doesn't do it, I'll have to go back over the work I did last time and see if the culprit is there somewhere.

Anyway, thanks for that response--it made the light bulb turn on in my head!

2 weeks later
#10 9 years ago

I'd like to follow up regarding the progress I made with the left flipper on my friend's bk. It turned out it was the flipper +38v connector on the power supply board! Male pins had already been replaced, but the female connector was still original. Replaced female connector and they came back to life! Of course I replaced virtually every switch in that circuit before I arrived at the solution, but at least his flippers should be good to go for a long, long time!

1 year later
#11 8 years ago

Glad I found this post! Oddly enough my BK is doing the same thing!

#12 8 years ago

Glad it's of use! Definitely get a close look at the male and female connectors on the power supply board for the flipper power. You may even benefit by replacing the connectors anyway, even if it doesn't solve the problem.

#13 8 years ago

Sure enough I have some sparks coming out of that connector when I wiggle the wires while hitting the flipper button! Just curious where did you get the connector and what style did you use for a replacement there?

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#14 8 years ago

Found one in my stash! Black Knight is working 100% again! Thank to this thread this was the fastest fix ever! If anyone needs me I'll be playing Black Knight for the next few hours!!

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#15 8 years ago

Well that was short lived now when the ball drains it's popping the solenoid fuse! Back to the books!

#16 8 years ago

Oh man, it's always something right? Did you ever come up with the source of your problem where the fuse is blowing when the ball drains?

#17 8 years ago
Quoted from frunch:

Oh man, it's always something right? Did you ever come up with the source of your problem where the fuse is blowing when the ball drains?

Actually yes! I think I'm on the trail of that as well. I had the PF and poking around with the meter just testing and looking at stuff. When I got around the pop bumper it was randomly pop. Then I wiggled the harness and it seemed like the pop bumper was laboring hard. Next thing you know the fuse popped. So I completely removed the pop bumper assembly and disconnected it all and no more blown fuses! It looked like the wires for the light were nasty coming through the PF. So I ordered pretty much everything to rebuild the pop bumper. Switch, new lamp socket, diode, coil, sleeve, and I'm going to install all that when it comes in and hopefully that was it. I played a dozen or so games since I removed the pop bumper and it's playing as it should with no popping of the 2.5amp fuse. It's strange playing it with no pop bumper up top! Changes the entire game around.

#18 8 years ago

Some pics of my findings!

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#19 8 years ago

Good catch, man! Tracking something like that down can be difficult. Glad you got to the bottom of it...With stronger flippers to boot!

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