(Topic ID: 41766)

Black Knight, First Pinball Machine

By skullin

11 years ago


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  • 148 posts
  • 28 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 years ago by Pafasa
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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There are 148 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
#51 11 years ago
Quoted from Patofnaud:

Yeah that battery holder is SHOT. There are threads devoted to moving it off the module and Pinwiki covers it also so I'll leave that be.
That is why you are powering up with the "2500 3". However stepping through the up down advance dance should get you past that.
To answer your other questions:
Doing the power off/on cycle will not clear the condition if the batteries are out/shot. That only fixes the condition if the 'memory protect' button has been pushed or you just put in a set of batteries.
The state of the center button does nothing when you power up a machine, it is only sensed/matters when you hit the selftest/advance button.

Cool, so I'll remove and replace it. I'll take a look at pinwiki instead of cleaning anything. Glad you pointed that out! It didn't look so bad to me so I thought I could clean it. What about it really said to you that it was shot and needed to be replaced? For future reference, I mean. Or is any corrosion just enough to say 'done'?

#52 11 years ago
Quoted from skullin:

Not sure if it's enough to cause a problem but I'll clean them with some baking soda and cotton swabs tomorrow afternoon.

Not baking soda, that would add more alkali (these are not car batteries).

Clean with 50/50 vinegar/ water.

#53 11 years ago
Quoted from skullin:

So when I turn it on, should I have the middle button up, or down?

That does not matter, just make sure its in the down position before you push advance for the first time.

As far as removing battery corrosion, I have seen legendary pin repairman Clay use yellow mustard to clean battery corrosion.

#54 11 years ago

Nothing left to clean. Look closer at the picture, half of the metal is missing. What you have is a semi circle or green metal and a semi circle of nothing with just the hard rubber insulator showing.

Bad_Battery_Holder.jpgBad_Battery_Holder.jpg

#55 11 years ago
Quoted from Patofnaud:

Nothing left to clean. Look closer at the picture, half of the metal is missing. What you have is a semi circle or green metal and a semi circle of nothing with just the hard rubber insulator showing.

Oh yeah, that is toast, might need a good cleaning underneath it, no telling whats under there.

#56 11 years ago

Alright, hopped on pinwiki.it looks like Black Knight is a system 7. I found this after jut a few minutes of searching and I think it is what I'm going to do. I'm pretty sure the battery corrosion is due to neglect but just in case there are future issues I don't want my boards getting fried by battery acid.

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_3_-_7#Relocating_the_batteries_away_from_the_MPU_board

I'm hoping to get this done early next week. It sounds like I can get any 3 battery holder from radio shack and use sme heavy duty tape to mou t the holder on the side of the back box. Anyone got a good place to suggest mounting it?

#57 11 years ago

Left side wall.

Just a heads up I know my local Rat Shack does not stock 3x AA holders, only 2x and 4x so I've had to use the 4x and solder a wire jumper in one position.

There are some folks on Pinside that make really nice kits that have the holder, a quick disconnect and such.

#58 11 years ago

Kits? Pinside? There? Sounds good to me! I'll take a look in the for sale area, see of anyone near Wilmington de is available for local pickup.

#59 11 years ago

TaylorVA makes a nice one, but you can buy them from a few places.

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/battery-replacement-product-question

#60 11 years ago

I cycle the power fairly quickly , just like turning a light off and on twice, my battery holders are toast so I don't even have batteries in mine right now

#61 11 years ago

Also is your transformer in the lower right corner of the back box? Or in the cabinet? Mine is in the back box so it's a early system 6 BK

#62 11 years ago

My transformer is in the back box. I'll try what you suggest, see if that works at all. I'm going to want a permanent fix but that could be nice to start looking for more problems. Just because my battery holder is shot doesn't mean other things aren't broken too. If it's anything like arcade repair it means something else probably IS shot.

#63 11 years ago
Quoted from ls1chris:

Also is your transformer in the lower right corner of the back box? Or in the cabinet? Mine is in the back box so it's a early system 6 BK

Same as mine. It's actually still a system 7, just with a system 3-6 PS with the GI relay off the supply.

FWIW: I also have a mostly empty Firepower II cab that I someday plan on painting/stenciling as a BK cab and convert mine to a 'full' system 7 with the transformer in the lower cab. My FP II cab is in much better shape, has the tilt/chime/transformer already in the lower cab and I have spare system 7 power supplies.

#64 11 years ago
Quoted from skullin:

My transformer is in the back box. I'll try what you suggest, see if that works at all. I'm going to want a permanent fix but that could be nice to start looking for more problems. Just because my battery holder is shot doesn't mean other things aren't broken too. If it's anything like arcade repair it means something else probably IS shot.

same idea's here too, all my parts show up in the next few days and after the battery fix , if i still have issues im ordering new mpu and driver boards as thats all i have left on my wish list of new parts. if i ever decide to sell or swap , i dont think the power cycle option will be a great selling feature.

#65 11 years ago

With good batteries and good battery connection to the MPU you should not need to powercycle to get out of '2300 5'-land.

#66 11 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Not baking soda, that would add more alkali (these are not car batteries).
Clean with 50/50 vinegar/ water.

Listen to this advice. The term "Battery Acid" is wrong. This is not a car battery, it is Sodium Hydroxide leaking and it is a strong base. You neutralize with a mild acid.

Do the 50/50 vinegar wash. Wash the vinegar with water. Dry the water with Iysopropal Alcohol and a hair dryer on mild. Don't use an air compressor. This can hurt chips with a static discharge.

#67 11 years ago
Quoted from Patofnaud:

With good batteries and good battery connection to the MPU you should not need to powercycle to get out of '2300 5'-land.

So my problem lies elsewhere, then? I have brand new batteries in it and they aren't doing the trick. It flickers like it's thinking about starting the game, and then goes right back to '2300 5'-land. Which is not a mystical place of realized dreams.

Quoted from Taxman:

Listen to this advice. The term "Battery Acid" is wrong. This is not a car battery, it is Sodium Hydroxide leaking and it is a strong base. You neutralize with a mild acid.
Do the 50/50 vinegar wash. Wash the vinegar with water. Dry the water with Iysopropal Alcohol and a hair dryer on mild. Don't use an air compressor. This can hurt chips with a static discharge.

So, half vinegar, half water, scrub with a q tip lightly, then clean with pure water, then isopropyl alcohol and a hair drier on the lowest setting? Looking at the image do you disagree and think the contacts could be saved?

#68 11 years ago

those contacts are done, mine look the same, i ordered new ones from Marco and i recived them in 3 days, and im in Canada. you could go to radio shack ( the source???) and make your own with a remote type battery pack easy enough though.

#69 11 years ago

are the battery's set in series or parallel? i wonder does the memory need 1.5 v and they used 3 AA for longevity or 4.5 v? as my paragon ( bally only needs 1 AA) has the battery removed and a capacitor in place , could we not go that route also?

#70 11 years ago
Quoted from Lermods:

Great playing iconic game, congrats. I (my dad, actually) owned it in the early 80s. We always had problems with it. Eventually the sound gave out and we got rid of it. Personally, I'd be wary of the game, unless you are good with board work and diagnosing issues.

You can always get a new set of Kohout boards for BK
http://www.pinballpcb.com/products.html

#71 11 years ago
Quoted from skullin:

I have brand new batteries in it and they aren't doing the trick. It flickers like it's thinking about starting the game, and then goes right back to '2300 5'-land. Which is not a mystical place of realized dreams.

Miss something, did you happen to check the board with power off and make sure you had ~4.6vdc on the MPU where the wires soldered in?

Quoted from ls1chris:

are the battery's set in series or parallel? i wonder does the memory need 1.5 v and they used 3 AA for longevity or 4.5 v? as my paragon ( bally only needs 1 AA) has the battery removed and a capacitor in place , could we not go that route also?

The batteries are in series. You can use a cap, but if he already has done the battery holder replacement, no need.

#72 11 years ago
Quoted from Patofnaud:

Miss something, did you happen to check the board with power off and make sure you had ~4.6vdc on the MPU where the wires soldered in?

Not completely sure I'm checking the right place. The MPU would be the same board with the battery pack, right? I'm not finding any soldered wires there or anywhere else on the backbox.

A very nice user sent me a link with every schematic I should need for this and other systems. I'm off thursday. Maybe as a study break/diversion I'll take a good look at the schematics and see what I can find.

Thanks again, everyone! This community is truly excellent, and very supportive and friendly. I really appreciate the advice and positive reinforcement, everyone is great.

Post edited by skullin : Fixed quote error.

#73 11 years ago
Quoted from skullin:

Not completely sure I'm checking the right place. The MPU would be the same board with the battery pack, right? I'm not finding any soldered wires there or anywhere else on the backbox.

Ahh my bad. I had assumed you replaced the corroded battery holder with an aftermarket off-board holder. If you just replace the corroded holder with an original type then my comment is wrong.

However the idea is still correct, the summation of you 3 batteries is roughly 4.5vdc. With a meter going from the + mark where it solders to the MPU board to the ground (-) side you should get 4.5vdc. You want to check across the holder and not across the batteries so that you make sure all 6 touch points of the holder are actually touching battery. Any one does not and you get no output.

#74 11 years ago

When I buy a WMS sys-6 or 7 (which are the only SS pins I own), I pull the boards and reflow the pins. 90% of the time I have to replace the GI plug and the GI pins with slightly thicker pins. Those battery holders can be replaced too, might as well. It's tedious work, but it's just such a common problem. It really doesn't take very long, and then you don't have to worry about it again.

#75 11 years ago
Quoted from PinballShawn:

When I buy a WMS sys-6 or 7 (which are the only SS pins I own), I pull the boards and reflow the pins. 90% of the time I have to replace the GI plug and the GI pins with slightly thicker pins. Those battery holders can be replaced too, might as well. It's tedious work, but it's just such a common problem. It really doesn't take very long, and then you don't have to worry about it again.

Good advice. There are other issues with those boards of course, but you can't go wrong by starting with reflowing all the connector pins....unless you are really hamhanded with a soldering iron.

#76 11 years ago

While the machine is off I got pretty much nothing using the multimeter on the 20 dcv setting. I got 0 on the top pair, .02 on the second, and the bottom pair had .36. Since they're all not at all close to 4.6 I'm going to say it's no good. Pretty much confirms what everyone is saying about the battery holder being shot.

Someone suggested buying one from a forum member here, I've been in contact with him about purchasing it. He's put it aside and I'm hoping to set the time aside tonight to get him hooked up with some paypal info so I can get on with replacing the battery holder.

Is there anything else I can test in the meantime to trouble shoot further potential problems, or am I pretty much on hold until I get the new battery holder installed?

#77 11 years ago

No batteries (or bad holder) isn't going to keep the game from playing. It'll flash the 2500 once, but as long as the AC power stays on, it shouldn't do it again. The fact that it does it again, means the MPU is resetting. So you're losing your 5V supply sporadically to the main processor. I would start looking at the 12V/5V circuit. You really need to crack open clay's system 7 guide and start troubleshooting the section on resets.

#78 11 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

No batteries (or bad holder) isn't going to keep the game from playing. It'll flash the 2500 once, but as long as the AC power stays on, it shouldn't do it again. The fact that it does it again, means the MPU is resetting. So you're losing your 5V supply sporadically to the main processor. I would start looking at the 12V/5V circuit. You really need to crack open clay's system 7 guide and start troubleshooting the section on resets.

^^^^^^^^^Yeah, what he said^^^^^^^^

#79 11 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

No batteries (or bad holder) isn't going to keep the game from playing. It'll flash the 2500 once, but as long as the AC power stays on, it shouldn't do it again. The fact that it does it again, means the MPU is resetting. So you're losing your 5V supply sporadically to the main processor. I would start looking at the 12V/5V circuit. You really need to crack open clay's system 7 guide and start troubleshooting the section on resets.

I think my problem is looking more and more serious as time goes by. I broke out clay's guide, went to the section on resets and just started at the top of the list. First thing it says to do is remove fuses f2 and f3 from the board. So I did then, and then started to go into digits test mode. Which I can't get it to start. According to the manual, display digits test is reached by 1. depressing 'auto-up/manual-down (middle button), 2. depressing 'advance'. It says all of my displays should indicate all zeroes. They do not. It just gives me a 65 in the top left display, 04 50 in the bottom left display, and the other three are just blank. I think I'm going to have to go back to the drawing board.

I was hoping this would be an easy fix, as it doesn't look like my game has any damage or corrosion, but I'm going to have to give in and start rewiring the boards. Earlier in the thread someone linked to a good beginning to end guide for maintenance. It was comprehensive and time consuming but it's probably my best bet.

#80 11 years ago

Turns out the wire to the door switch wasn't even attached, it was just stuffed in there! Probably not the source of my woes but worth fixing. In more arcade games this switch can just be pulled out an bypassed. Not sure if it's the same in pinball. Just to be safe I'm going to simply reattach the wire to its socket.
IMG_1226.jpgIMG_1226.jpg

Of course I'm completely out of fuel for soldering iron so I'm going to have to buy some more while I'm out tomorrow. In the meantime I'm working on my shopping list for pinball tools. Most of it is stuff I have from basic arcade maintenance but there are some other items on the list suggested on Pinwiki I should add to my toolbox.

I'm looking at the power supply going in to the boards and I'm not finding any loose connections. I'm not seeing any corrosion, either. All of the chips are pretty sturdy, couldn't even make them move with my fingers, and I tried. I am having a hard time pulling the connectors off the boards though, most of them won't budge so I can check underneath them. I'm wondering if I'm not dealing with a little corrosion under the connectors and that's where my problem lies.

#81 11 years ago

Also! Think I found a pretty decent system 7 schematic. I know people say you can system 6 because they're so similar, but this seems pretty good too!

http://gamearchive.askey.org/Pinball/Manufacturers/Williams/pdfs/sys7.pdf

#82 11 years ago

skullian, looks like your getting to know this machine pretty good really quick, i'm going to start a teardown of mine today , im going to start a progress thread and maybe we can get our machines like new in no time.

#83 11 years ago

Definitely! I'll look for your thread and we can trade notes!

#84 11 years ago

So, questionable news! First, the displays went out! Then they came back! Then they went out! Then - you see where this is going.

Also just startled the heck out of myself! While pulling out the connectors for 3J6 and I think 3J5 on the power supply I managed to forget I had the machine on and gave myself a nice little shock. It felt like five volts (wouldn't know, actually) but I used my multimeter to be sure and verified I was getting 5V out!

So that's good, right? It gets better!

While plugging it in I gave myself a figurative shock when the sound came on at full volume for no apparent reason! I finished putting the connector back on to see if I could get the game working but no dice.

Still, this is a good sign, right? I spoke with a local repair shop and he said I was better off just replacing the game boards with newer ones. I might look into that but I'm thinking I can't even verify if my game boards are my problem right now. I'm reading into clay's guide and also at that thread that was linked before. My chips all look very, very sturdy so I might pass on repinning them, and simply read into replacing the connectors. Any advice or opinions? Sound like I'm on the right track?

#85 11 years ago

I think you are on the right track for a start if you want to hit the boards. I would reflow all the header pins for every connector on the boards except for the sound board and displays. Power supply and cpu/driver boards all suffer from fatigued header pins. Dont worry about the display boards until you are absolutely sure your other boards are right. I would also avoid repinning the chip sockets at first. Reflow one board and then test it. Repeat for each board.

I would also recommend that you stop plugging and unplugging things with the power on. And while you are doing this work, pull the solenoid fuse from the power supply board. You can test the board functionality without that fuse in. This will save possible further damage to the driver board if for some reason a solenoid locks on.

#86 11 years ago

I pulled the fuses. F2 and F3, right?

I usually don't work with the power on, I just didn't remember I had it on. I have it next to my living room window and the natural light is brighter than the old bulbs. Got wrapped up in reading, and testing. The shock was enough to relearn that little nugget.

By reflow do you mean resolder? I was advised that I could pull the power supply board out, and just heat up the soldered points for the connector. That should address any cracking that could be causing poor connection.

#87 11 years ago

Yes, reflow=resolder. You can just heat them but sometimes with old solder, it takes more heat to flow it. More heat=more risk of board damage. If you use just a touch of "fresh" rosin core solder while you are heating the pins, they will flow at a lower temp and you will get better results. You will be able to get on and off the pins more quickly. Just don't add so much that you flow two pins together.

#88 11 years ago

For solder that old (30+ years), I'd recommend you buy a cheap solder sucker (plunger type), remove the old solder and reflow some new. I did some of that on a Xenon recently (same era) and it corrected a host of problems.

#89 11 years ago

Pulled the power supply out of the backbox. About to do the same with CPU boards. But for now, pics.

It's upside down, but this is the rear of the J6 connector. I don't see any cracking or anything. Should I reflow anyway just to be sure?

Should I be worried about the flaking here, exposing some of the metal underneath the board? I heard of pens that dispense the green insulation material. A wise purchase in this situation?

IMG_1258.jpgIMG_1258.jpg IMG_1259.jpgIMG_1259.jpg

#90 11 years ago
Quoted from skullin:

Should I be worried about the flaking here, exposing some of the metal underneath the board?

No.

Note that 95% of the "flaking" is where there is a solder pad.

#91 11 years ago

If you are concerned about exposed traces, use clear fingernail polish to seal them. I would reflow the pins while I had it out. You probably will see more suspicious ones in the CPU and driver boards.

#92 11 years ago

I looked up reflow soldering and found this how to video on youtube.

After some reading it looks like using an oven is a standard part of the process? I was just going to reheat using the soldering iron and be done with it. I'm really, really uncomfortable putting a board into an oven. Thoughts?

#93 11 years ago

You are correct to be uncomfortable. Just use the tip of your soldering iron and a little fresh solder. If you are uncomfortable, go get a small electronics kit of some sort at radioshack. Build that first. This will give you some good electronics soldering practice.

That video shows a technique for soldering surface mount devices. Very specialized skills and not something you will need for pinball repair. I'm not even sure if there are any surface mount devices on the system 7 boards.

#94 11 years ago
Quoted from Pafasa:

I'm not even sure if there are any surface mount devices on the system 7 boards.

You are correct putting them in an oven is for SMD's and there are none in a System 7. Repro parts may have some, but then if you can't solder traditional you shouldn't even think about working with SMD's

#95 11 years ago

Yeah, glad I didn't start tossing crap in the oven. For me the oven is for deliciousness, not electronics repair. Glad to know I won't ever need it.

Okay! So I started to reflow the 5v off of the power supply, and the connector running to the sound board. I got good 5v reads off of the connector with my multimeter, but with the sound board cutting in and then out with a little pressure I'm thinking I should reflow it and see what I get. Since they're right next to each other I just reflowed the whole thing. I think.

Looking at the back of the board, I put just a little flux at the base of each connector. Then I heated up my butane soldering iron, melted just a little solder on it and then touched it to the base of each connector. Since these contacts were in a row it was a little tough to make sure I was evenly distributing the heat, so I touched it for about 5-6 seconds on opposite sides of the base. Each looked a little wet for a moment, and then dulled by the time I finished reflowing them. Every source said they'll look shiny if I did it right and that happened. I expected the existing soldering to be more, I dunno, goopy?

I'm letting it sit right now because I'm not sure how long I have to wait before plugging it back in. In the meantime I unbolted the CPU and driver board. The 40 pin seems tight. The boards act as one continuous piece. I carried them with both hands while supporting the connector because I want to keep it that way. Looking at the back I don't see any obvious damage. The good news is that my batteries only took out the battery holder, and there is no evidence of acid damage. At least not like anything I've seen in the example photos.

IMG_1262.jpgIMG_1262.jpg

Rear of 40 pin connector
IMG_1264.JPGIMG_1264.JPG

Rear of 1J2 - Power Input
IMG_1265.JPGIMG_1265.JPG

#96 11 years ago
Quoted from skullin:

The good news is that my batteries only took out the battery holder, and there is no evidence of acid damage

That is good. For that battery holder, all you need to do is with a good pair of cutters, just snip it off the board. You can then remove the cut off leads. You then want to get or make an external battery holder and mount those 3 acid peeing puppies off the board.

Quoted from skullin:

I heated up my butane soldering iron

*shudder* you should consider a nice temp controlled electric iron. flame makes make my neck hairs stand on end.

#97 11 years ago

Gently work the boards apart at the 40 pin connector. It's a bitch, but they do come apart. You will want to reflow the female connectors on the driver board 40 pin too. I do see some cracked joints on the cpu 40 pin in the pic you posted. Just reflow every connector pin around each board including the 40 pin.

$30-40 gets you a nice temp controlled iron from MCM electronics. If you continue down this pinhead path, you will want one of those.

#98 11 years ago

Well I'm bummed. I pulled the boards and went to a friend's house today. He's an electrical technician and taught me how to solder and reflow. He did the first few and I did the rest. We checked them out and he thought they looked pretty good.

Installed the boards, reconnected everything....and absolutely nothing has changed. The game behaves IDENTICALLY to before, which is strange. I at least expected sound!

My new battery holder has arrived, courtesy of taylorva. I'll take a look in the morning. I'm a little tired and frustrated right now so it's not a good time to work on installing a new piece, even if it is supposed to be an easy install.

#99 11 years ago

So I went back with my multimeter. I'm definitely getting 5v into the cpu on the wires, but maybe there is a better way of checking to make sure my reflow was effective and that the board is actually getting the 5v it needs?

I replaced the fuses that I took out to work on the machine thinking that may help but it didn't make much of a difference. I work the next two days but I'm going to crack open clay's guide again and get into it all day friday.

#100 11 years ago
Quoted from skullin:

Well I'm bummed. I pulled the boards and went to a friend's house today. He's an electrical technician and taught me how to solder and reflow. He did the first few and I did the rest. We checked them out and he thought they looked pretty good.
Installed the boards, reconnected everything....and absolutely nothing has changed. The game behaves IDENTICALLY to before, which is strange. I at least expected sound!
My new battery holder has arrived, courtesy of taylorva. I'll take a look in the morning. I'm a little tired and frustrated right now so it's not a good time to work on installing a new piece, even if it is supposed to be an easy install.

What change were you expecting? All you are doing is bulletproofing and not fixing a specific problem.

Quoted from skullin:

My new battery holder has arrived, courtesy of taylorva. I'll take a look in the morning. I'm a little tired and frustrated right now so it's not a good time to work on installing a new piece, even if it is supposed to be an easy install.

And did you change this? Did you install batteries and test for 4.6vdc with power off at the holder?

Quoted from skullin:

So I went back with my multimeter. I'm definitely getting 5v into the cpu on the wires, but maybe there is a better way of checking to make sure my reflow was effective and that the board is actually getting the 5v it needs?

Huh? Why are you thinking changing the 40 pin would change this? And why if you are getting 5v looking for a 5v problem?

Step back.... Look at the symptom you have now, and walk through Clay's stuff step by step and also the System 7 Pinwiki and clearly define the problem you are seeing.

Although you may not think you fixing anything, just in scanning this thread you isolated a misshaped ball trough switch, a severely corroded battery holder, you replaced the 40 pin connector which will do nothing but make the machine MUCH more reliable....

Now you just need to start with a fresh clean slate and define your problem before you change/test/replace anything else.

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