(Topic ID: 54503)

Black Knight Club...Members Only!


By mof

6 years ago



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  • Latest reply 3 days ago by Graysonsdad
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There are 2260 posts in this topic. You are on page 44 of 46.
#2151 3 months ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

Looking at the different cabinets (and mine) I could swear there must have been more than one stencil.

Very likely. I used to recreate pinball sideart for 3d virtual models and this was true for just about every stenciled cab I redid. Photos of different cabs showed slight, and somtimes not so slight, variations in the artwork from game to game. Plus, what was the run on Black Knight, 13000 plus another 600 for the limited edition? They sure weren't going to have one guy painting them one at a time.

Pinbot is another example, there are cabs where the orange artwork is all connected just underneath the coindoor, and cabs where it's broken into three separate parts.

#2152 3 months ago

Williams factory management meeting, 1980 - "These Black Knights are sellin' like hotcakes, we'll have to hire a dozen more workers, run extra shifts and make another set of stencils. And the credit button is randomly positioned in relation to the artwork, totally unheard of, needs to be fixed. No kidding, I'm looking at the flyer right here. You're the point man on this, Frank, take the ball and run with it."

#2153 3 months ago

Totally agree on variations from game to game.

Stenciling aside, I am seeing variations on the playfield as well, with various locations for screw holes resulting in the ramp sides in different locations. My BK had the left side of the left ramp moved inboard about 1/4 in compared to other machines resulting in a ball drain every single time. I moved it after inspection of pics from other machines and playing two other machines at local bars. Sigh.

Left Ramp Guide - Before and After (resized).jpg
#2154 3 months ago

Mine is a system 7 with the transformer in the cab, the button was centered on mine. here are before restore and after new stencils.

DSC_0092 - Front Cab (resized).JPGDSC_0230 - Stencils Front Done (resized).JPG
#2155 88 days ago
Quoted from EilersPark:

Mine is a system 7 with the transformer in the cab, the button was centered on mine. here are before restore and after new stencils.[quoted image][quoted image]

Oh, I thought the 6's were the ones with the transformer in the cab? How do you tell if you have a system 6 or system 7 then?

#2156 88 days ago

None of them had system 6 cpu boards, The ROM won’t work, it only works on System 7 CPU boards due to the changes in memory space, and moving sound to a dedicated output header.

The only real difference is the very early games had the transformer in the head, a system 6 style power supply, and a separate GI relay similar to blackout.

Some other minor differences are that very early games had notches for standup switches behind three of the drop target banks, some games had different color inserts for the lock arrows. I used to have a list of changes but don’t know if I still do.

A LOT of variation due to quality control though. Particularly playfield art is usually missing some color around the outlanes. There were also two cabinet makers that assembled things different, most noticeable in the joint work on the head boxes.

#2157 88 days ago
Quoted from HHaase:

A LOT of variation due to quality control though.

True,true,true....Many subcontracted manufactures putting parts out to meet the demand.

#2158 84 days ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

Likely not the first time somebody did this mod but here's one I did maybe 10 years ago on my Black Knight to prevent fast balls from flying right back out of the upper multiball lock when it is empty, was really annoying. If a ball is flying far enough up above the switch trough, it glances downward off of this bumper. Has worked flawlessly since I put it in. It's a little sloppy looking with just a piece of 1/2" rubber tubing strapped down with multiple layers of packing tape so it can take the impacts, but it's invisible plus the mod can be reversed.[quoted image]

Here's mine: 1/4" thick foam seal with sticky back. It prevents fly-throughs 99% of the time, so yours is better. Just using what I have around the house.

20200101_163958 (853x480) (resized).jpg
#2159 84 days ago

I very much like the original "jeweled" look of the inserts on my BK, but some inserts have faded, particularly the blue one. I have done an LED conversion using the dimmest "retro" LEDs from Comet (and a few non-ghosting for the problem bulbs). Unfortunately, they all have white domes, which appear very white through the inserts.

I have had success using 10mm gel boot caps (for car instrument panels) which you can get for different colours from ebay: ebay.com link » 10 Qty Red 10mm T10 168 192 Light Bulb Color Caps Covers Toyota Honda Import

In summary: Green and Blue worked great, but the Red ones hardly make a difference. I only concentrated on the inserts close to the player. The ones on the upper playfield are too far to be visible.

And obviously, this is only a problem in moderately bright rooms.
Sample Boots (resized).jpgSample Boots - Green (resized).jpgBlue LED w and wo boot (resized).jpgGreen LED w boot (resized).jpgRed LED w and wo boot (resized).jpgRed boots installed (resized).jpg

#2160 82 days ago
Quoted from Michel_K17:

I very much like the original "jeweled" look of the inserts on my BK, but some inserts have faded, particularly the blue one. I have done an LED conversion using the dimmest "retro" LEDs from Comet (and a few non-ghosting for the problem bulbs). Unfortunately, they all have white domes, which appear very white through the inserts.
I have had success using 10mm gel boot caps (for car instrument panels) which you can get for different colours from ebay: ebay.com link » 10 Qty Red 10mm T10 168 192 Light Bulb Color Caps Covers Toyota Honda Import
In summary: Green and Blue worked great, but the Red ones hardly make a difference. I only concentrated on the inserts close to the player. The ones on the upper playfield are too far to be visible.
And obviously, this is only a problem in moderately bright rooms.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Yeah, I've run into similar issues trying to LED the inserts. In the end, I've got an LED GI, and incandescents for the inserts. Even just having the GI LED'ed reduces the power draw quite a bit.

#2161 82 days ago
Quoted from Michel_K17:

Here's mine: 1/4" thick foam seal with sticky back. It prevents fly-throughs 99% of the time, so yours is better. Just using what I have around the house. [quoted image]

Yeah, I used a piece of cardboard roughly that shape and size, and covered/attached it with silver duct tape. Can't be seen, and even if you could, it just looks like the metal guide. Haven't had any fly-throughs since.

#2162 82 days ago
Quoted from Michel_K17:

Here's mine: 1/4" thick foam seal with sticky back. It prevents fly-throughs 99% of the time, so yours is better. Just using what I have around the house. [quoted image]

You have the upgraded micro switches! Excellent.

#2163 82 days ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

You have the upgraded micro switches! Excellent.

Good eye!

#2164 75 days ago

How do these color-capped LEDs look when lit? I did a little experimenting too with making my badly faded blue inserts look more like the BK flyer and repro playfields... just dark, smokey blue. I tried blue LEDs but didn’t like the look, too bright, too pure blue, too garish and neon-ish especially since I'm sticking with #44s otherwise. I’m trying various warm white LEDs with no cap (so looks more like a #44 filament) and differing layers of blue & purple cellophane and 2-sided tape to make colored ‘lenses’ to stick on the top of them. Still dialing in the process and color but looks like this. I made the 2X & 5X purple because those are the only ones that are definitely purplish vs. the others on my BK, what color is left that is. Weird thing is on the flyer and repros the two purple ones on mine just look blue (?)
89965394_2610111585872021_4328047808423657472_n (resized).jpg89865072_3052281384802341_34335944249180160_n (resized).jpg

#2165 75 days ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

How do these color-capped LEDs look when lit? I did a little experimenting too with making my badly faded blue inserts look more like the BK flyer and repro playfields... just dark, smokey blue. I tried blue LEDs but didn’t like the look, too bright, too pure blue, too garish and neon-ish especially since I'm sticking with #44s otherwise. I’m trying various warm white LEDs with no cap (so looks more like a #44 filament) and differing layers of blue & purple cellophane and 2-sided tape to make colored ‘lenses’ to stick on the top of them. Still dialing in the process and color but looks like this. I made the 2X & 5X purple because those are the only ones that are definitely purplish vs. the others on my BK, what color is left that is. Weird thing is on the flyer and repros the two purple ones on mine just look blue (?)
[quoted image][quoted image]

So, perhaps I should have mentioned that although the caps are white, the LED itself is colored. So, I am using blue on all blue arrows, dropdown target timers and the bonus lights (X2, X3, X4, X5). What the boot does is make the white cap less visible from the top when unlit, but when they are lit, they look nearly identical to without the boot. Maybe a touch darker/richer.

In regards to the purple hue of your X2 and X5: I am guessing that it is just the way they faded, but that they were originally blue. I have noticed on older Black Knights, that they do have a slight purple fade to them (including my machine), but generally, I feel like all 4 are typically blue, but we do know that there has been variations over time.

#2166 75 days ago

This white LED/color filter thing I did was a special case because these darn blue inserts can fade so much they aren't really doing anything. If faded badly they are pretty close to gray like mine, so you're stuck with the particular hue of the LED instead of the resultant blue color of the insert itself. I've got an 80s Stern and Bally with really dark blue inserts and I use blue LEDs in some of those where a #44 is too dim for my liking and they look great. Funny how these rather 'blank' inserts get interpreted differently, some people reverse it and light the 3x/4x's purple instead, or make the blue drop target timer inserts purple, all kinds of combos out there.

1 week later
#2167 65 days ago

Occasionally the first ball into my BK upper lock would bounce back up a little after it bottomed out and then get stuck behind the last switch wire form and not register, so I’d give a little nudge to knock it loose. Turned out it wasn’t the switch pressure - the tip of the eject arm was slightly peened right at the very tip just enough for a barely-moving ball to get hung up behind it. A half-second on the grinder fixed it. Boy there sure isn’t a lot of clearance there between these eject arms when it is at rest and the bottom of the eject hole. : )

yhhfghfgh (resized).jpg
#2168 59 days ago

Both my MagnaSave lights, the Mystery and Special ramp lights, and the Last Chance outlane lights stopped working all the sudden, all other lights are working fine. Anyone have any ideas for me to check out? THX!

#2169 59 days ago
Quoted from ArcadeBar:

Both my MagnaSave lights, the Mystery and Special ramp lights, and the Last Chance outlane lights stopped working all the sudden, all other lights are working fine. Anyone have any ideas for me to check out? THX!

That's column 2 of the lamp matrix.

The matrix is listed on page 9 of the manual. there is a copy here if you don't have one: https://www.ipdb.org/files/310/Williams_1980_Black_Knight_English_Manual_with_paginated_schematics.pdf

Trace the wires for all of those lights and make sure there is continuity and they are not grounding on something loose under the playfield. Where you working under the pf before they went out? If so, you may have just knocked something loose.

If you don't see anything, track down which pin on connector 2J7 it uses and see if there is power there.

Could be a bad diode along the way or on the driver board, or the transistor on the board.

#2170 59 days ago
Quoted from Black_Knight:

That's column 2 of the lamp matrix.
The matrix is listed on page 9 of the manual. there is a copy here if you don't have one: https://www.ipdb.org/files/310/Williams_1980_Black_Knight_English_Manual_with_paginated_schematics.pdf
Trace the wires for all of those lights and make sure there is continuity and they are not grounding on something loose under the playfield. Where you working under the pf before they went out? If so, you may have just knocked something loose.
If you don't see anything, track down which pin on connector 2J7 it uses and see if there is power there.
Could be a bad diode along the way or on the driver board, or the transistor on the board.

Thanks for the help! Yes a buddy and myself had been combing through the machine trying to find the source of an intermittent start button issue that ended up just being a loose connector in the neck of the backbox. But before that all lights had been working. I'll try to follow these lines and see what I can find. THX

#2171 58 days ago
Quoted from ArcadeBar:

Thanks for the help! Yes a buddy and myself had been combing through the machine trying to find the source of an intermittent start button issue that ended up just being a loose connector in the neck of the backbox. But before that all lights had been working. I'll try to follow these lines and see what I can find. THX

I'd also recommend wiggling the connectors for the lamps, that plugs into the main board. I had a string of lights out on mine, and fixed it by just wiggling and re-seating the connector in the back box. You never know, could get lucky!

#2172 58 days ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

I'd also recommend wiggling the connectors for the lamps, that plugs into the main board. I had a string of lights out on mine, and fixed it by just wiggling and re-seating the connector in the back box. You never know, could get lucky!

Yes thats actually what happened yesterday! I followed that yellow/orange-stripe wire up into the backbox and reseated the connector on the board, and also found a connector in the neck of the backbox that I pressed firmly together. We had previously solved the start button issue by finding a larger connector in the neck of the backbox that wasn't snug and so it was most likely the same case with this smaller connector that was in there with this lamp wire. Thanks again for the help - Back in full Black!
IMG_8681 (resized).jpgIMG_8682 (resized).jpg

#2173 57 days ago
Quoted from ArcadeBar:

Yes thats actually what happened yesterday! I followed that yellow/orange-stripe wire up into the backbox and reseated the connector on the board, and also found a connector in the next of the backbox that I pressed firmly together. We had previously solved the start button issue by finding a larger connector in the neck of the backbox that wasn't snug and so it was most likely the same case with this smaller connector that was in there with this lamp wire. Thanks again for the help - Back in full Black![quoted image][quoted image]

Looks good! I always appreciate finding a Black Knight without wear spots on the Magna-save circles.

#2174 56 days ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

Looks good! I always appreciate finding a Black Knight without wear spots on the Magna-save circles.

Thanks! I just got it recently and was excited to find one where the mangas weren’t worn, it’s got some wear around the inserts in the sword but otherwise he’s in solid shape and working tip top now! I put black rubbers on it because I thought it looked better but they’re definitely bouncing the ball way more than the white ones were so I’m not sure if I’ll switch back.

#2175 50 days ago

I will be listing a nice black knight (system 7) mpu. If anyone is interested, please PM me.

3 weeks later
#2176 26 days ago

Just adding to my topics thread. Looks like I'll be in the club this week. Im going to hardtop it during quarenteen.

#2177 25 days ago

I saw this on ebay, it's a production topper for BK to advertise how many balls it was set to for 50 cents. I think it went for 200 bucks. I wish somebody would reproduce these! I wonder how these were 'got' back in the day. If it was reproduced you could always rivet your own two little brackets on it. Does anybody have one of these originals on their game?

s-l300 (resized).jpg
#2178 25 days ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

I saw this on ebay, it's a production topper for BK to advertise how many balls it was set to for 50 cents. I think it went for 200 bucks. I wish somebody would reproduce these! I wonder how these were 'got' back in the day. If it was reproduced you could always rivet your own two little brackets on it. Does anybody have one of these originals on their game?
[quoted image]

Here is the topper I just made for $20!

0EF6653B-9A99-486B-A90B-4947418AF1E4 (resized).jpeg
#2179 24 days ago

Got one. Upper playfield is pretty rough and other typical areas in the lower. Only broken plastic seems to be the skinny piece to the left of the center ramp which seems like it would be the most commonly broken piece. Upper kickout is a bit wonky but it plays. Came with a cpr backglass though so that's cool. Going to polish up what I can and try my hand at a hardtop install. Get some cliffys and a new pop cap. Also need a new lockdown bar. Fun project during isolation (hopefully). The old owner did recommend I get some updated roms as well.

#2180 24 days ago
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#2181 24 days ago

I found no functional difference between the L3 and L4 ROM versions. Only change was a re-allocation of one memory address. From the player standpoint I'm not aware of any difference.

I've never found a copy of L1 or L2 ROM's anywhere.

-Hans

#2182 24 days ago

What is the proper pitch for these older titles?

#2183 24 days ago

Yay it started up. No audio at first. Just a loose connection. Played a few games. Flippers have a weird spongy feel. If the ball hits the right lower flipper without flipping it basically just dies. The flipper is absorbing the momentum. Looks like another thing to add to the list.

#2184 24 days ago
20200507_175400 (resized).jpg
#2185 24 days ago
Quoted from Graysonsdad:

What is the proper pitch for these older titles?

I keep mine at about 7. But I guess really the answer is just, the steepest that you can make the ramps consistently, once you rebuild the flippers.

#2186 23 days ago
Quoted from EilersPark:

WTB: Green out lane proto plastics (with graphics right side up).
I'd like to get a set of the out lane proto plastics with the graphics the right side up. I got one of the early CPR sets with them upside down and CPR doesn't sell them individually.
PM me if you have some.

A quick update. I picked up a set of these on Ebay from ClassicArcades. Based on the pictures they didn't look like an exact match with the CPR ones, but for the price I thought I would take a chance. The size, shape and fit is good, the artwork is good except it goes all the way out to the edge unlike original or CPR plastics and the deal breaker for me, the green color is off. The CPR ones match the green on the playfield, these don't so I decided not to use them. I'm not upset with ClassicArcades, their price was fair and for some these may work, I'm just picky. Here is a picture to compare.

BK Proto Green (resized).jpeg
#2187 23 days ago
Quoted from EilersPark:

A quick update. I picked up a set of these on Ebay from ClassicArcades. Based on the pictures they didn't look like an exact match with the CPR ones, but for the price I thought I would take a chance. The size, shape and fit is good, the artwork is good except it goes all the way out to the edge unlike original or CPR plastics and the deal breaker for me, the green color is off. The CPR ones match the green on the playfield, these don't so I decided not to use them. I'm not upset with ClassicArcades, their price was fair and for some these may work, I'm just picky. Here is a picture to compare.
[quoted image]

I have the same pair, and it just never looked right, so I took it off a long time back. Though the originals are all screwy too with the upside down lions.

I never did get the original CPR plastics sets because I was afraid of removing the riveted standoffs from my originals, and I don't have any broken ones. But I may rethink that now that I could make new 3D printed posts instead, and they also have the inlanes correct. Playfield is coming due for new rubbers and drop target stickers again, so maybe when I do those.

-Hans

#2188 23 days ago

I'm assuming this is one of the most commonly broken plastics. Maybe someone out there bought a cpr set and now has a spare of this piece? Most of my other plastics are ok.
Thanks.

20200507_152728 (resized).jpg

#2189 23 days ago

Dumb feeling question but should all the legs be the same length on this game?
I have the the front down as far as they'll go and the back up as high as they'll go. Not the most stable and I'd still like it even steeper tbh. I've got your standard 28" something legs all around.

#2190 23 days ago
Quoted from Graysonsdad:

What is the proper pitch for these older titles?

Black Knight used the 2" leg levelers...
All of Williams double playfields had 2" leg levelers.

#2191 23 days ago
Quoted from HHaase:

I have the same pair, and it just never looked right, so I took it off a long time back. Though the originals are all screwy too with the upside down lions.

Heh I just bought a pair from them on Ebay yesterday too so waiting for them. I didn't even know these existed until I saw the auction or anything about the originals being upside down or the clear edge or not or the color preciseness. The first would bug me more than the other two but oh well they weren't really assembly line factory equipment anyway so I thought I'd see how they look without having to buy a whole set. I was already thinking I might end up preferring them not there.

#2192 23 days ago
Quoted from HHaase:

I never did get the original CPR plastics sets because I was afraid of removing the riveted standoffs from my originals, and I don't have any broken ones.

I hear you could just screw the plastic pieces on top of the metal return lanes.
Or, put the plastics on standoff and mount them with longer screws.

#2193 23 days ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

I hear you could just screw the plastic pieces on top of the metal return lanes.
Or, put the plastics on standoff and mount them with longer screws.

I figured putting them on top would be the way to do it, otherwise all you have is the plastic and I could see them getting chipped or broken by the ball. But maybe not since my EBD clear inlanes seems to hold up fine and plastics are sturdier than back then.

#2194 23 days ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

I figured putting them on top would be the way to do it, otherwise all you have is the plastic and I could see them getting chipped or broken by the ball. But maybe not since my EBD clear inlanes seems to hold up fine and plastics are sturdier than back then.

I always wanted to see what the return lanes would look like with the plastic mounted
with standoffs would look like. I know Williams had a metal bell spacer that was a low
profile than the normal sizes that are used on the games back then,
I have the size as 21/64" tall; Maybe someday.

#2195 23 days ago
Quoted from Graysonsdad:

Dumb feeling question but should all the legs be the same length on this game?
I have the the front down as far as they'll go and the back up as high as they'll go. Not the most stable and I'd still like it even steeper tbh. I've got your standard 28" something legs all around.

I put 31s on the back of most of my Williams games, but from the factory they were all 28

#2196 22 days ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

I always wanted to see what the return lanes would look like with the plastic mounted
with standoffs would look like. I know Williams had a metal bell spacer that was a low
profile than the normal sizes that are used on the games back then,
I have the size as 21/64" tall; Maybe someday.

Does anybody know if there is an actual backstory to these prototype plastics? All I have found is everybody just calls them prototypes. They weren't on the game on the flyer. Were they simply included in original replacement plastics sets by Williams and that's all anybody knows, or were they really used on a prototype at the factory and if so, how did they mount them (?) Seems strange that they were even produced to begin with, the other Wms games during that era only had the stainless steel return guides not plastic ones, nor decorative plastics on top. Might be more understandable if BK was the first to use steel guides and they'd put plastics on top to jazz them up but it caused issues so they dumped the idea for good. And then on top of it they print the friggin' things upside down, the whole thing is weird.

#2197 22 days ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

Does anybody know if there is an actual backstory to these prototype plastics? All I have found is everybody just calls them prototypes. They weren't on the game on the flyer. Were they simply included in original replacement plastics sets by Williams and that's all anybody knows, or were they really used on a prototype at the factory and if so, how did they mount them (?) Seems strange that they were even produced to begin with, the other Wms games during that era only had the stainless steel return guides not plastic ones, nor decorative plastics on top. Might be more understandable if BK was the first to use steel guides and they'd put plastics on top to jazz them up but it caused issues so they dumped the idea for good. And then on top of it they print the friggin' things upside down, the whole thing is weird.

As far as I could remember, is that the plastics were extras and were flawed...
OEM parts were up side down... the parts are in the same category as the small
plastic that went to the top left of the playfield.
Production was high and it was faster to omit frivolous stuff. The game did not need it...
and if you did not know, you were not going to miss.

#2198 22 days ago

As with Williams High Speed... the game had helicopters that were on the playfield.
The production/sales engineer at the time, told me that the plastic would hit the side
of the cabinet and break. So out the part went... boost productivity and you omitted
the nag calls from distributors/operators.

#2199 22 days ago

Hey guys I have some.questions as a new owner. My.game needs work but now I'm noticing some odd things in how it plays.
I dont have a manual so maybe these are settings by the previous owner but for all I know so far, there may be some hack work going on under there.
Two out of three of my upper right bank arent registering. No worries. I'll.get in there. The confusing part is this,
The upper and lower drops are tied together during gameplay. Hitting any of them lights two hurry up jewels. Clearing any one coloured bank lights the arrows for both the upper and lower of that colour. Once all three have been collected (to cheers) the upper arrows remain lit and the lower reset. Collecting all three arrows again (while still acting in a paired manner) gets the "I cannot defeat thee"
Shouldnt all four banks be acting independently? Is this somenbypass hack to avoid something that wasn't working properly or is it as simple as an option setting? I havent even figured out how to clear the high score etc yet lol. Damn that's long

#2200 22 days ago

I found an online manual so I've messed around in the setting a bit now. Free play etc. I didnt see anything like what I'm describing. Likely dealing with someone elses workaround? I need to build a rotisserie sigh.

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