(Topic ID: 94003)
Linked Games
Black Knight 2000
Williams, 1989
Topic Gallery
Plano, TX
Quoted from Jumping-Box:Part of me wants to buy this so bad... But it's beat to hell. I don't have the skills to fix this, but I can't stop thinking about it. Ahggg!
According to Rick at PPS we should see repro playfields sometime this year.
Quoted from Jumping-Box:Part of me wants to buy this so bad... But it's beat to hell. I don't have the skills to fix this, but I can't stop thinking about it. Ahggg!
That game is tragic junk... BK2K is my grail, and this is hard to look at without wanting to kick someone's ass... Dont waste your money.
Quoted from Ed209:According to Rick at PPS we should see repro playfields sometime this year.
wait, WHAT??!!!
THIS is good news!
Chris
Quoted from Ed209:According to Rick at PPS we should see repro playfields sometime this year.
Yep, that's the rumor: https://www.planetarypinball.com/forum/index.php?topic=453.0
Quoted from attack7777:Looks like someone peeled off the mylar on the lower PF -- on BK2K it takes the ink with it. Then they left the whole machine outside in a sandstorm
Yea, that looks like the glue residue from the mylar. I think this would clean up but it's gonna take alotta time. The chrome doesn't look pitted up so it's not like it sat outside
Quoted from attack7777:Yep, that's the rumor: https://www.planetarypinball.com/forum/index.php?topic=453.0
He also posted a teaser pic in the F-14 repro playfield thread...
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/demand-check-f14-tom-cat/page/4#post-3303282
Just joined the club yesterday. This pin is my grail as well. I've wanted one ever since I first played it as a child in a pizza place. Question does anyone have a moment to take a picture of the way their machines flipper switches are wired. Everything in game works without issue. However, when I hit a high score and get to put in initials only the left flipper button allows me to cycle through the letters the right button does nothing. As a note the flippers flip as I'm pressing the buttons on character entry is that right? (I wouldn't think so) also the left flipper cycles the win and war letters, from memory I thought the right flipper did that. This machine is in great shape but they did some weird stuff like they put a arcade button on the front of the machine as a credit button (Took the wires right from the coin slot) no idea why they did that when free play exists but I fixed that off the bat. I only mention it as it seems like they had some idea of how to wire things (Stupidly or otherwise) so I didn't know if this would be an obvious fix. Thanks for any help. Very excited!!!
Quoted from darcangeloel:However, when I hit a high score and get to put in initials only the left flipper button allows me to cycle through the letters the right button does nothing. As a note the flippers flip as I'm pressing the buttons on character entry is that right? (I wouldn't think so) also the left flipper cycles the win and war letters, from memory I thought the right flipper did that.
The flipper circuit is not CPU controlled on this System 11B game. Pressing the flipper button will always fire the flipper solenoid if the flipper relay is enabled.
Page #94 of the manual. The backbox interconnect board schematic. The system detects when the flipper is energized in U3 on the backbox interconnect board. Check the wires. Also check if the switch registers in the switch test. It's GRN-GRY and WHT-BRN. There's a procedure for testing these. Check http://www.pinwiki.com for the details. If you connect GRN-GRY and WHT-BRN and the switch registers in the test then it's likely you need to replace U3.
Quoted from darcangeloel:Any idea what those spade connectors go to?
Page #80 of the manual. The "memory protect" is BLK-RED and WHT. This is the coin door interlock switch. Check you coin door for the switch.
Quoted from DumbAss:The flipper circuit is not CPU controlled on this System 11B game. Pressing the flipper button will always fire the flipper solenoid if the flipper relay is enabled.
Page #94 of the manual. The backbox interconnect board schematic. The system detects when the flipper is energized in U3 on the backbox interconnect board. Check the wires. Also check if the switch registers in the switch test. It's GRN-GRY and WHT-BRN. There's a procedure for testing these. Check http://www.pinwiki.com for the details. If you connect GRN-GRY and WHT-BRN and the switch registers in the test then it's likely you need to replace U3.Page #80 of the manual. The "memory protect" is BLK-RED and WHT. This is the coin door interlock switch. Check you coin door for the switch.
Thanks for all the help. Seems like everything is wired in correctly ty for the page number in the manual btw sometimes finding stuff can,be over whelping. I'll buy a replacement interlock switch for the door and reattach the connectors. Do you guys recommend coin taker leds for this machine? Thanks!!!
Quoted from DumbAss:The flipper circuit is not CPU controlled on this System 11B game. Pressing the flipper button will always fire the flipper solenoid if the flipper relay is enabled.
Page #94 of the manual. The backbox interconnect board schematic. The system detects when the flipper is energized in U3 on the backbox interconnect board. Check the wires. Also check if the switch registers in the switch test. It's GRN-GRY and WHT-BRN. There's a procedure for testing these. Check http://www.pinwiki.com for the details. If you connect GRN-GRY and WHT-BRN and the switch registers in the test then it's likely you need to replace U3.Page #80 of the manual. The "memory protect" is BLK-RED and WHT. This is the coin door interlock switch. Check you coin door for the switch.
Looks like I have a free floating white brown wire. Should this be hooked into the coil or eos?
1492397281040-42662766 (resized).jpg
Quoted from darcangeloel:Looks like I have a free floating white brown wire. Should this be hooked into the coil or eos?
NO! Do not connect those wire to anything. Those are for switch #9 (or #21). That's "Playfield Tilt". Those wires should be left alone. Under no circumstances should you connect those to coil or EOS.
You should be able to find the EOS switch wires in the backbox at the interconnect board. U3 detects flipper coil activity and closes the (internal) switch across the GRN-GRY and WHT-BRN wires. I'm not an electronics expert but I believe it's an opto isolator that essentially is an optical switch based on voltage or current flow.
Quoted from DumbAss:NO! Do not connect those wire to anything. Those are for switch #9 (or #21). That's "Playfield Tilt". Those wires should be left alone. Under no circumstances should you connect those to coil or EOS.
You should be able to find the EOS switch wires in the backbox at the interconnect board. U3 detects flipper coil activity and closes the (internal) switch across the GRN-GRY and WHT-BRN wires. I'm not an electronics expert but I believe it's an opto isolator that essentially is an optical switch based on voltage or current flow.
Got it, Makes sense. I will test the switch and see if it is bad and if so I will change it out (I think it's soldering in so that will be fun 
Quoted from DumbAss:NO! Do not connect those wire to anything. Those are for switch #9 (or #21). That's "Playfield Tilt". Those wires should be left alone. Under no circumstances should you connect those to coil or EOS.
You should be able to find the EOS switch wires in the backbox at the interconnect board. U3 detects flipper coil activity and closes the (internal) switch across the GRN-GRY and WHT-BRN wires. I'm not an electronics expert but I believe it's an opto isolator that essentially is an optical switch based on voltage or current flow.
Any idea which connector they are on when looking at the interconnect board? I checked the opto switches using the method described on pin wiki but all of them check out. If I was to do a switch test what should I expect to see if the board does get the signal that the right flipper coil is engaged.
Quoted from darcangeloel:Any idea which connector they are on when looking at the interconnect board? I checked the opto switches using the method described on pin wiki but all of them check out. If I was to do a switch test what should I expect to see if the board does get the signal that the right flipper coil is engaged.
The connector information for the interconnect board is on page #94 of the manual. You can also find connection information on page #97 of the manual. According to it, you can find all the wires at 2J1. I think those connect straight to the CPU board. I say "I think" because I'm not at a BK2K to verify. It should connect to 1J8 and 1J10. You can try the Pinwiki individual switch tests for #9 (#21).
I think the only optos in this machine are on the drop target boards and aren't something you would typically test short of just raising and lowering the drop targets. The opto referred to is in the opto isolator. It's embedded in the U3 IC so there's no way you can physically test it by interrupting the beam. Again ... I'm not an circuit design and logic expert. This is my simple way of trying to understand what the IC actually does at a 10,000 foot level.
If you select the switch test (I can never remember whether it's level or edge) and you engage the flipper the switch should register. Again ... I've not tested this myself because I'm not at a machine and the BK2K I have easy access to has an alkaline damaged CPU board that I need to fix. If you press the left flipper and the switch registers that's great. If you press the right flipper and the switch doesn't register then you know that's the most likely place where the problem is.
If you just want a recommendation without doing any investigation then I'd say it's probably U3. But don't take my word for it. I've done ZERO investigation on your machine. You could just replace U3 and see if it fixes it. I wouldn't do that without having a better idea through investigation.
Ultimately it boils down to the wires that trigger U3 (is the flipper energized), the opto switch inside the IC (are the optos inside the IC fried), the connections from the IC to the switch matrix or the wires from the interconnect board to the CPU board. You mention that pretty much everything works except lane changes and high score name entry. That's most likely to be the right flipper switch registered from U3.
Quoted from DumbAss:The connector information for the interconnect board is on page #94 of the manual. You can also find connection information on page #97 of the manual. According to it, you can find all the wires at 2J1. I think those connect straight to the CPU board. I say "I think" because I'm not at a BK2K to verify. It should connect to 1J8 and 1J10. You can try the Pinwiki individual switch tests for #9 (#21).
I think the only optos in this machine are on the drop target boards and aren't something you would typically test short of just raising and lowering the drop targets. The opto referred to is in the opto isolator. It's embedded in the U3 IC so there's no way you can physically test it by interrupting the beam. Again ... I'm not an circuit design and logic expert. This is my simple way of trying to understand what the IC actually does at a 10,000 foot level.
If you select the switch test (I can never remember whether it's level or edge) and you engage the flipper the switch should register. Again ... I've not tested this myself because I'm not at a machine and the BK2K I have easy access to has an alkaline damaged CPU board that I need to fix. If you press the left flipper and the switch registers that's great. If you press the right flipper and the switch doesn't register then you know that's the most likely place where the problem is.
If you just want a recommendation without doing any investigation then I'd say it's probably U3. But don't take my word for it. I've done ZERO investigation on your machine. You could just replace U3 and see if it fixes it. I wouldn't do that without having a better idea through investigation.
Ultimately it boils down to the wires that trigger U3 (is the flipper energized), the opto switch inside the IC (are the optos inside the IC fried), the connections from the IC to the switch matrix or the wires from the interconnect board to the CPU board. You mention that pretty much everything works except lane changes and high score name entry. That's most likely to be the right flipper switch registered from U3.
Man you are the champ with laying the knowledge down. Very helpful. Gave me new directions to go in. I did as you said and tested in switch edge test both left and right flipper switches. Sure enough the left displays without issue but when right flippers are engaged no change. ( See pictures for confirmation). I apologize I feel like you've explained it very well but the next step is confusing for some reason. Should I replace U3 at this point and then that in theory should fix it. Or does the fact that I press the switch and then nothing happens tell me that something is wrong with the wiring back to the interconnect or CPU board?
Quoted from darcangeloel:Should I replace U3 at this point and then that in theory should fix it. Or does the fact that I press the switch and then nothing happens tell me that something is wrong with the wiring back to the interconnect or CPU board?
You've established that switch #58 (or #82) registers. Great. You've established that the switch #57 (or #81) does not register.
I apologize for specify #9 (or #21) above. I was confusing it with the previous request for the switch color wires for the playfield tilt.
You still haven't established where in the path of switch #57 it is broken. There are two things that can try to gain more confidence.
1) Do the 4N25 optocoupler test from Pinwiki.
You know the left flipper works so verify that U2 is "good". You know the right flipper does not work so verify that U3 is "bad".
2) Do the switch matrix row/column test from Pinwiki. You can focus on column #8 specifically for row #1 and row #2.
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11#Switch_problems
This will ensure that the CPU can actually detect switches #57 and #58. I suspect there's nothing wrong on this side of the optocoupler and the CPU switch matrix is fine. To be sure though you should test it.
If I were a betting person I'd bet that U3 is "bad".
Tested U1 U2 and U3 all three seem to have the same or very similar values. I removed the board and tested it out of the machine so I could be accurate with the dmm leads. All of them seem to be fine accordino to the test steps I followed on pin wiki. I also did the switch test. See picture below and I got switch 57 to enable by using the jumper wire by following the steps on pin wiki. I also checked that wiring harness for continunity on each wire and they seemed to have solid connections. Could U3 still be bad and maybe just the test I did was wrong ( I do have a cheapo dmm but it does have a diode/ continuity test. Any other ideas. Dang, I feel like we aren't to far away on this one.
Quoted from DumbAss:You've established that switch #58 (or #82) registers. Great. You've established that the switch #57 (or #81) does not register.
I apologize for specify #9 (or #21) above. I was confusing it with the previous request for the switch color wires for the playfield tilt.
You still haven't established where in the path of switch #57 it is broken. There are two things that can try to gain more confidence.
1) Do the 4N25 optocoupler test from Pinwiki.
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11#4N25_Opto_Couplers_in_the_Switch_Matrix
You know the left flipper works so verify that U2 is "good". You know the right flipper does not work so verify that U3 is "bad".
2) Do the switch matrix row/column test from Pinwiki. You can focus on column #8 specifically for row #1 and row #2.
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11#Switch_problems
This will ensure that the CPU can actually detect switches #57 and #58. I suspect there's nothing wrong on this side of the optocoupler and the CPU switch matrix is fine. To be sure though you should test it.
If I were a betting person I'd bet that U3 is "bad".
I ordered a new interconnect board off of Marco specialty (The more I look at this board the more I start to wonder (Lot's of interesting wiring jobs on the back of it). along with a flipper rebuild kit and a cabinet switch (The one I have is pretty worn out). I'll report back and see if any of those things fix it. (God I hope So).
Quoted from darcangeloel:Could U3 still be bad and maybe just the test I did was wrong ( I do have a cheapo dmm but it does have a diode/ continuity test.
Great! Confirmation that the switch actually registers on the CPU board. Wiring between CPU board and interconnect board is solid. There are only two (obvious) places that I can think of.
1) The "input" side of U3. The side that detects the flipper engaging.
2) The "output" side of U3. The side that closes the switch (#57).
You tested U3 and it tests good. You used a "cheapo" DMM. I first tried testing diodes with my cheapo DMM but I could never get results I understood. So I sprung for a "expensivo" DMM. It works well for me. That's not to say cheapo DMMs don't work. It probably says that I just don't know how to use them for this purpose.
I've tested transistors and diodes in circuit and they've tested bad. I pulled them out and they tested good. I've also tested them and they tested good but I still replaced them and replacing fixed the problem. There's no scientific evidence for knowing the circumstance when it tests good but is still broken. If this were my machine I'd replace U3 based on the evidence here.
Quoted from darcangeloel:I ordered a new interconnect board off of Marco specialty (The more I look at this board the more I start to wonder (Lot's of interesting wiring jobs on the back of it). along with a flipper rebuild kit and a cabinet switch (The one I have is pretty worn out). I'll report back and see if any of those things fix it. (God I hope So).
This should fix it. The interconnect board on a lot of System 11 machines has burned GI and that's likely the wiring jobs you're seeing. If the new board doesn't fix the problem then there's something elsewhere that was missed.
If you don't want the old interconnect consider selling it rather than tossing it. Or perhaps use it for learning but I wouldn't advise that because I think that board sounds repairable. I would learn on a board that's not repairable. If you're going to toss it I'll send you postage for a flat-rate box to have it mailed to me. I'll fix it. I don't have a spare interconnect board and could use one for differential diagnosis.
Quoted from DumbAss:This should fix it. The interconnect board on a lot of System 11 machines has burned GI and that's likely the wiring jobs you're seeing. If the new board doesn't fix the problem then there's something elsewhere that was missed.
If you don't want the old interconnect consider selling it rather than tossing it. Or perhaps use it for learning but I wouldn't advise that because I think that board sounds repairable. I would learn on a board that's not repairable. If you're going to toss it I'll send you postage for a flat-rate box to have it mailed to me. I'll fix it. I don't have a spare interconnect board and could use one for differential diagnosis.
Dang, Dang, Dang. I installed the new interconnect board, new eos switch with capacitor and a new cabinet switch (Just in case). Still no luck 
. However the new interconnect board seems to have a new feature. It has leds that light up to tell you when certain things (Should be active). IE when I activate the left lane change, I find an LED lights up and then I see on the screen game information. However when I go the right the flippers activate but, no led light leading me to believe the signal isn't getting to the board in the first place although how the flipper could flip and that switch not activate is beyond me at this point. which connector on the interconnect board connects the flipper switch to the interconnect board? Anyone have any other ideas?
Thanks!
Quoted from darcangeloel:Dang, Dang, Dang. I installed the new interconnect board, new eos switch with capacitor and a new cabinet switch (Just in case). Still no luck
Thanks!
I have the old board in hand now and using a continuity test I traced the right most pin on connector J10 (To Cabinet) it seems to connect directly to one of the legs on U3. is there any way to check that wire to make sure it is working?
Got it working!!! See the pictures. I noticed when looking in the back box one wire being joined with a wire nut (I was certain it didn't come from the factory like that). And another wire soldered together with electrical tape covering the join. I inspected the color of the wires and noticed one was the same color of the wire that was in the cabinet for the right flipper switch. The other wire was the 50v to the right flipper coil. I took a look at those wiring jobs I mentioned in my last post and sure enough those wires being joined were originally on the board but because of two burned traces (which they tried to fix, very poorly if I might add) and when that didn't work they simply joined the wires together and then turned the machine on. They thought it worked so all done (Left a nice little mess for me to clean up) all working correctly now. If this happens to anyone else check the connectors on the interconnect board and make sure nothing is missing as it was likely a poor fix by someone not trying to spend $100 on the new board. Very excited it's fixed!
Quoted from TheOnlyest:Good job dude. Theres nothing wrong with doing trace repairs, if you do it correctly!
Thanks man, yeah I agree. In this case they tried. It didn't work so they just rigged it together and left it for me to fix
Quoted from darcangeloel:It didn't work so they just rigged it together and left it for me to fix
I guess it was your turn, usually it's me!
2 weeks later
Brisbane
Hello folks just picked up My first BK 2000 so I'm in the club and very pleased . I had to fix a few things its all good I enjoy a challenge of fixing these older games but the Magna save doesn't work kind of stumped . It make the sound when you push the button but nothing happens . anyone have this problem >?
Quoted from trimoto:Hello folks just picked up My first BK 2000 so I'm in the club and very pleased . I had to fix a few things its all good I enjoy a challenge of fixing these older games but the Magna save doesn't work kind of stumped . It make the sound when you push the button but nothing happens . anyone have this problem >?
I haven't seen this problem before, but the magnet will have a fuse on the power boards, I'd start there.
3 weeks later
Quoted from BriPin:CPR backglass released!
http://www.classicplayfields.com/photo200.html
Awesome! Thanks for the heads-up! Now if they would just make new playfields, my grail would be like new again!
Quoted from TheOnlyest:if they would just make new playfields
From your mouth to Rick's ears!
1 week later
Debrecen
Quoted from BriPin:CPR backglass released!
http://www.classicplayfields.com/photo200.html
I received my repro glass from CPR today. Looks great!
Quoted from CoreyStup:I received my repro glass from CPR today. Looks great!
Mine should be delivered today too. One thing I hadn't noticed before ordering is that they seem to have swapped some colors around e.g. yellow areas with orange as compared to my original. I wonder why that was done?
Quoted from CoreyStup:I received my repro glass from CPR today. Looks great!
Quoted from BriPin:Mine should be delivered today too. One thing I hadn't noticed before ordering is that they seem to have swapped some colors around e.g. yellow areas with orange as compared to my original. I wonder why that was done?
Am really curious to see a side-by-side review, like was done with The Getaway glass..!
Ugh...my backglass is not good. I think the wax paper stuck to the fresh ink plus there are scratches/defects in the ink. The backglass was loose in the package as well but there were no cracks. I also didn't receive my Pinbot backglass I ordered. I went from excited to deflated in under a minute.
I'll have to look at mine super close. My first glance didn't notice any flaws in the screening. I did see some drops of overspray (blue paint) on the front side of the glass, but thats easily removed.
Kevin from CPR replied quickly to my email and is sending a replacement backglass and the Pinbot backglass that I never received. I also get to keep the really crappy BK2K backglass I hope the ink is dry and not scratched on the replacement they send!
CoreyStup, was the wax paper really stuck to the ink side of your backglass like mine was?
I'm curious how the new CPR looks next to an original and maybe one of the older repros.
I have a brand new (Alan Meyer?) repro from "back in the day" and I'm curious how the mirroring looks between that and the new CPR version.
Glad owners have a new option as its such a badass backglass!
Looking closer, it does have some flaws. The paper wasn't stuck to mine, but there are definitely some scratches and flaws. You expect some flaws in the mask layer, but not thru to the paint.
There's a pretty nice bubble in the paint, plus several scratches that go thru all layers that will definitely show light thru when placed in the game. That's disappointing.
I'm curious how they got them done so well back in the day, and now there are so many issues. 
Regarldess, form the pics I've seen, they do look nice - a lot nicer than, say, if you didn't have one, or your original was flaking.
Quoted from CoreyStup:Looking closer, it does have some flaws.
There's a pretty nice bubble in the paint, plus several scratches that go thru all layers that will definitely show light thru when placed in the game. That's disappointing.
Disappointing??! For the cost of these things, pure straight unacceptable!!
Quoted from CoreyStup:Looking closer, it does have some flaws.
Oh man I feel your pain. You should definitely reach out to Kevin at CPR. He was very quick to address my issues and my replacement is already on its way (fingers crossed). It seems like his guys are mishandling these things and are careless during fabrication as I had some crap that had gotten trapped in between paint layers as well.
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