(Topic ID: 94003)

Black Knight 2000 Club - Knights of the Lightning Wheel.

By NextoPin

10 years ago


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There are 1,308 posts in this topic. You are on page 26 of 27.
#1251 70 days ago

Ok, I have a strange one I’m hoping the group can answer.

In a multiplayer game whoever gets the kickback first will always have the kickback when lit. The other players will not get a kickback even if it’s lit.

This is 100% reproducible.

Anyone seen something like this?

I just realized I’m not certain of the ROM.

Edit: this is a friend’s machine so that’s why I can’t just run and get the ROM.

#1252 70 days ago
Quoted from Biju:

Ok, I have a strange one I’m hoping the group can answer.
In a multiplayer game whoever gets the kickback first will always have the kickback when lit. The other players will not get a kickback even if it’s lit.
This is 100% reproducible.
Anyone seen something like this?
I just realized I’m not certain of the ROM.
Edit: this is a friend’s machine so that’s why I can’t just run and get the ROM.

Let me know which ROM you are on and I can check mine as well and if it happens in multiplayer for me.

#1253 70 days ago

Also looking for some group help on this one. Been stumped (look a few posts back) my L/R Slingshots won't fire, the magnasave or the Kickback on the L Outlane.

All the switches work, sounds play, lights, black knight says "NO WAY" when you try to use the magnasave if it's not active etc. But I cannot for the life of me get the coils to fire or figure out what to check next.

Here is what I have tried - any pointers for what to check next would be greatly appreciated. I know it's a long read but hopefully it can narrow it down.

#1 Tested all of the CPU Board transistors with the power off. Did this by using the continuity tester of a multi meter. One end on the transistors metal tab, the other to the ground braid in the back box. I can confirm the back box ground is connected to the main cabinet body ground.
The tutorial I followed said the transistors to test on the CPU Board are the 16 in the lower left of the board, the 6 in the upper right and then a row of 8 in the far lower right. These all passed this test but there was another row of 8 slightly to the left of the lower right 8. Some of these failed but I am not sure if these are supposed to be part of the test.
The Board attached is a version of 11 (not B?) but the areas I am talking about are the same. Some of the ones that fail are in the red area.

#2 All Fuses Pass on all boards including the fuse under the upper playfield. In and out of circuit. I don’t see any fuses under the lower playfield.

#3 Removed the Aux Power Driver Board to test the diodes. All passed except D12, but when it was removed from the circuit it passed. Solder on connectors looked okay but gave them some fresh solder anyway.

#4 is the BK2000 manual wrong about some of the solenoids and transistor numbers?
On page 29 some items differ from Page 91’s diagram. For example it states the Top Ball Popper is Solenoid 13, but on page 29 it says it’s the Kick Back (L Outlane)

Regardless of any mistakes I can confirm that the Kick Back, slingshots L/R and the Magnasave are all on the same Power lines and connected. (Violet with Yellow Stripes)

#5 Removed the Upper Playfield Interconnect board. One of the male pins broke off so I repaired it. Solder was also touched up on some areas but it wasn’t bad. Some lights on the upper playfield are much more bright.

#6 Removed and repaired the Back Box interconnect board. Someone already repaired U6 but I repaired U7 as Pin 9 and 10 had burnt right off. Also cleaned up solder connections, again wasn’t bad to begin with. I was originally worried about U6 – the last person who repaired it bridged pins 1-4 and 6-9 (5 was missing) but after checking photos online this is correct. (top 4 pins are yellow, bottom 6-9 are yellow/white.

#8 The Left Outlane Kick back, seems to have lower voltage (<20 Volts) but then the next hops (left and right kickers/sling shots) have between 40-80 Volts on both lugs. All power reads are done from the cabinet ground to the coil lugs on each end.

#10 In attract mode I cannot manually fire the non-working coils by shorting the ground lugs to cabinet ground. I have tried this is Diagnostic mode as well. Other working coils will fire this way.

Not sure what to try next, I was reading that I might be able to short one of the transistors while the machine is on but didn't want to blow a fuse or worse.

page 29 (resized).pngpage 29 (resized).pngpage 91a (resized).pngpage 91a (resized).pngwilliams 11b transistors (resized).pngwilliams 11b transistors (resized).png

#1254 69 days ago

Do you see power at the coils?

agg i cant read #8 says you do

wait something doesn't make sense. If you have voltage at the coils they should fire when grounding the lugs which doesnt happen says #10

#1255 69 days ago
Quoted from supermoot:

Do you see power at the coils?
agg i cant read #8 says you do
wait something doesn't make sense. If you have voltage at the coils they should fire when grounding the lugs which doesnt happen says #10

appreciate the reply, I will double check all the voltages and probably reflow the solder on the lugs while I am at it.

#1256 67 days ago

Was confirming the voltages when all of a sudden I wasn't getting any. Even on some of the coils that had been working before that I could manually fire from shorting out with the cabinet ground are now not working.

Checked all the fuses again, F4 on the Aux Power Board had failed. For a moment I thought I had shorted out a coil the wrong way, but after replacing the fuse all coils are back up and running including the non working ones and the magnasave.

I am not sure if while I was reflowing some of the solder joints on the Aux Power Board I might have fixed something or if maybe the F4 Fuse had always been the issue.

That fuse had always passed a DMM test both in and out of circuit, but maybe it was on its way out.

#1257 66 days ago
Quoted from cidtrip:

Let me know which ROM you are on and I can check mine as well and if it happens in multiplayer for me.

Sorry--I'm working on this. I've asked my friend but they aren't totally sure where to look (even after describing it) so I'll have to check the next time I visit them.

1 week later
#1258 55 days ago

Anyone have a spare or happen to be reproducing the lower right wire form? Mine has the typical issues...missing 1 leg and other is broken.

20240522_092951 (resized).jpg20240522_092951 (resized).jpg
#1259 53 days ago
Quoted from scottmaggie:

Anyone have a spare or happen to be reproducing the lower right wire form? Mine has the typical issues...missing 1 leg and other is broken.
[quoted image]

Bueller? Bueller? Anyone? Anyone?
:0)

#1260 53 days ago
Quoted from scottmaggie:

Bueller? Bueller? Anyone? Anyone?
:0)

Logan pinball was doing some of these a while ago but don't think he posts anymore.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/black-knight-2000-wireform

#1261 52 days ago

I could probably fix it for you, But i'm not making new ones.

Also i am out of the country for a while so it won't be soon.

Pm me and we can talk about it.

#1262 48 days ago

I'm looking at doing a run of these if there is enough interest to do more than just one for my game and another friend. Please pm me if interested. The more I can do the cheaper it gets for all of us. I'd be looking at a slight modification to make them stronger as well.

#1263 48 days ago

Yes, I think all these single point spot welds are foolish. The feet can easily be adjusted to loops and welded 2 PLS. A little more thought, and they can be welded 4pls.

#1264 48 days ago
Quoted from KJS:

I'm looking at doing a run of these if there is enough interest to do more than just one for my game and another friend. Please pm me if interested. The more I can do the cheaper it gets for all of us. I'd be looking at a slight modification to make them stronger as well.

I'd be in for one. Would it include the spring?

Chris

#1265 48 days ago

I too would grab one.

#1266 48 days ago

I am of course in for one. Heck I will buy 2 if it gets them made faster. HA!

#1267 48 days ago

Material is ordered. No promises or lists etc but I will be happy to share/make more when done. People who have pm'd I will contact you directly.

#1268 47 days ago
Quoted from Biju:

Sorry--I'm working on this. I've asked my friend but they aren't totally sure where to look (even after describing it) so I'll have to check the next time I visit them.

I was just powering on the pin with the coin door open and hitting a button to bring up the following:

BLACK KNIGHT 2K
ID 00 563 PA-6

Looks like prototype, America/Canada version 6. I've got to assume that the latest L-4 is much newer than a prototype version.

Just like your friend I also have the kickback not firing when it is lit on multiplayer. I am still testing it out to narrow down when it happens.

#1269 47 days ago

First time club member, long time fan.

Wondering if anyone had any progress or insight to competitive rom adjustments? Something like what was done for High Speed, ie, ability to make ransom a per player reward to advance to; same with incremental game to game jackpot collect.

Thank you-

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#1270 46 days ago
Quoted from cidtrip:

I was just powering on the pin with the coin door open and hitting a button to bring up the following:
BLACK KNIGHT 2K
ID 00 563 PA-6
Looks like prototype, America/Canada version 6. I've got to assume that the latest L-4 is much newer than a prototype version.
Just like your friend I also have the kickback not firing when it is lit on multiplayer. I am still testing it out to narrow down when it happens.

ok, great! I'm pretty excited to see if she's running a prototype ROM too (and I'm guessing she is). I've got to head over there soon-ish anyway so I'll report back when I have more info.

thank you for running that test!

#1271 46 days ago
Quoted from Biju:

Sorry--I'm working on this. I've asked my friend but they aren't totally sure where to look (even after describing it) so I'll have to check the next time I visit them.

Quoted from Biju:

ok, great! I'm pretty excited to see if she's running a prototype ROM too (and I'm guessing she is). I've got to head over there soon-ish anyway so I'll report back when I have more info.
thank you for running that test!

No problem.

I dug a bit more into the kickback in multiplayer on my table.

Happens on any amount of players in multiplayer, kickback will work with any player, even after one player has used it.

After a few players lose a ball, the kickback light will be falsely lit for some players and not fire. I don't think it's that the coil isn't firing, it's that the light has come on when it was off the last time the player lost a ball.

Does your friend have the early set of plastics? (Non Castle themed upper playfield) Mine does.

#1272 46 days ago
Quoted from cidtrip:

Does your friend have the early set of plastics? (Non Castle themed upper playfield) Mine does.

Yes, she does! Always interesting stuff.

#1273 44 days ago

Would this interest anyone? Came on my BK2K. I normally don’t like aftermarket shooter rods.

If you’re in the continental US I’ll ship it for free.

Let me know.

*machine not included

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#1274 44 days ago
Quoted from SilverUnicorn:

Would this interest anyone? Came on my BK2K. I normally don’t like aftermarket shooter rods.
If you’re in the continental US I’ll ship it for free.
Let me know.
*machine not included
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

I think that's pretty darn cool. sending DM. thank you-

#1275 44 days ago

Shooter rod is spoken for. Thanks!

#1276 42 days ago
Quoted from Biju:

Yes, she does! Always interesting stuff.

Put in the latest L4 CPU roms a couple of days ago and I haven't been able to reproduce the kickback issue so far. Still haven't tested all the possibilities but normally by now I would have seen it happen at least once.

1 week later
#1277 31 days ago

Wondering if someone can confirm what is supposed to happen when you start a new game.

On my table, after you hear "I am the black knight" and the knight's helm in the center of the lightning wheel lights up as he talks, what lights flash on your table?

For me, it's the entire upper playfield, but then also some lights on the lower - Which doesn't seem to fit the pattern. For example, G and H but not T and one of the U-turn lightning bolts. I'm not sure what would be causing this, lamp matrix? I can confirm this is happening on the latest L-4 Roms and the older Proto Roms that came with the unit.

Not the end of the world, but see the screenshot. Seems odd that these would be coming on.

bk start up (resized).pngbk start up (resized).png
#1278 31 days ago
Quoted from cidtrip:

I'm not sure what would be causing this, lamp matrix?

Highlighting the entire UPF, "G", "H", "Hurry up", "Extra Ball" and left u-turn. That doesn't look like the "problem".

lamp matrix bk2k (resized).pnglamp matrix bk2k (resized).png

#1279 31 days ago
Quoted from cidtrip:

Wondering if someone can confirm what is supposed to happen when you start a new game.
On my table, after you hear "I am the black knight" and the knight's helm in the center of the lightning wheel lights up as he talks, what lights flash on your table?
For me, it's the entire upper playfield, but then also some lights on the lower - Which doesn't seem to fit the pattern. For example, G and H but not T and one of the U-turn lightning bolts. I'm not sure what would be causing this, lamp matrix? I can confirm this is happening on the latest L-4 Roms and the older Proto Roms that came with the unit.
Not the end of the world, but see the screenshot. Seems odd that these would be coming on.
[quoted image]

Checked mine, they also do this so seems normal

#1280 30 days ago
Quoted from Jmckune:

Checked mine, they also do this so seems normal

Thanks for checking!

1 week later
#1281 24 days ago

On this machine, is it normal to just have the one lane change switch on the lower right flipper assembly? (looks like it from some of the photos I have seen)

No issues on my machine, but I was trying to figure out how the lane change on my BK2000 works with just the one lane change switch. If you hit the right button both right flippers fire, the lower right will hit the lane change, so it makes sense you don't need one on the upper right.

But how does the left flipper button toggle the lane change? there is no lane change switch on the left assembly or anything like that near the actual flipper button leaf spring?

#1282 24 days ago
Quoted from cidtrip:

But how does the left flipper button toggle the lane change? there is no lane change switch on the left assembly or anything like that near the actual flipper button leaf spring?

bk2k_flipper_wiring_diagram.jpgbk2k_flipper_wiring_diagram.jpgwms11_flipper_switch_wiring_diagram.jpgwms11_flipper_switch_wiring_diagram.jpg

#1283 24 days ago

DumbAss

Thanks. If I am reading the first image correctly, what I thought was a lane change switch on the lower right flipper is actually the switch that tells the upper right flipper to fire?

Is the 2nd image from a newer system 11 game?

#1284 24 days ago
Quoted from cidtrip:

DumbAss If I am reading the first image correctly, what I thought was a lane change switch on the lower right flipper is actually the switch that tells the upper right flipper to fire?

Yes. It is a power switch not a software indication switch. The wiring is such that the lower right flipper takes all the right flipper solenoid current until the EOS is opened. When the EOS opens, it also closes the power switch allowing the upper right flipper to energize. The thought behind this is that if you energize both flippers simultaneously, it could take unnecessary current away from the lower right flipper. The wiring allows the lower right flipper to have maximum "power" to get the ball up the ramp.

Quoted from cidtrip:

Is the 2nd image from a newer system 11 game or maybe a better way of wiring up BK2000?

The second image is from a later System 11 manual. They're all wired the same way (for the most part) with the differences in the number of flippers. You can change your BK2K wiring to match this if you want. This wiring allows separate control of the lower and upper flippers like most games with lower and upper on the same side. I re-wired my game this way. Nobody has complained about it. Other people have said it plays better.

#1285 24 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Yes. It is a power switch not a software indication switch. The wiring is such that the lower right flipper takes all the right flipper solenoid current until the EOS is opened. When the EOS opens, it also closes the power switch allowing the upper right flipper to energize. The thought behind this is that if you energize both flippers simultaneously, it could take unnecessary current away from the lower right flipper. The wiring allows the lower right flipper to have maximum "power" to get the ball up the ramp.

The second image is from a later System 11 manual. They're all wired the same way (for the most part) with the differences in the number of flippers. You can change your BK2K wiring to match this if you want. This wiring allows separate control of the lower and upper flippers like most games with lower and upper on the same side. I re-wired my game this way. Nobody has complained about it. Other people have said it plays better.

This is great, I was actually wondering about staged flippers on bk2k, so essentially is this just connecting the wires from the lower right outside EOS sw., adding a additional leaf to the right button sw that connects to Black-yellow. It is interesting the rationale you mention. technically staged flippers should have somewhat the same effect?

Also, is there an opto-isolator or something missing from the bk2k schematic?

Thank you

#1286 24 days ago
Quoted from koji:

This is great, I was actually wondering about staged flippers on bk2k, so essentially is this just connecting the wires from the lower right outside EOS sw., adding a additional leaf to the right button sw that connects to Black-yellow.

Yes. Short the NO switch (the outer switch of the switch stack) or take the physical switch out and connect the wires. Install a double HV (tungsten) switch stack and wire it like the second image (above). Outer is BLU-VIO and inner is BLK-YEL.

Quoted from koji:

It is interesting the rationale you mention. technically staged flippers should have somewhat the same effect?

If only a single flipper (lower) is energized then all the available current will flow through that solenoid. If both flippers are energized simultaneously then the available current is halved because they are wired in parallel. There might be enough current but the fuse is a 2A fuse so that's the maximum available (before the slow blow fuse blows). What's interesting about the OEM wiring is that there is a delay to when the upper flipper energizes and theoretically that delay is not predictable or will change over time as the flipper mechanism wears, gets dirty or is damaged.

Quoted from koji:

Also, is there an opto-isolator or something missing from the bk2k schematic?

Yes. This is why I included the second image. The first shows the actual flipper wiring without the opto-isolator. It was an omission from the manual.

#1287 23 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

If only a single flipper (lower) is energized then all the available current will flow through that solenoid. If both flippers are energized simultaneously then the available current is halved because they are wired in parallel. There might be enough current but the fuse is a 2A fuse so that's the maximum available (before the slow blow fuse blows). What's interesting about the OEM wiring is that there is a delay to when the upper flipper energizes and theoretically that delay is not predictable or will change over time as the flipper mechanism wears, gets dirty or is damaged.

Yeah, my thought was that it is somewhat similar with a staged flipper set up, where the outside leaf should not engage until the button is nearly fully pressed, and the lower flipper engages at an earlier point. Technically, you could achieve a similar outcome, but a player could in this case, trap a ball or just hold the button half way, and perhaps experience less lag looping the top. It would be fun to experiment with these timings which kind of throws more options on the player.

Quoted from DumbAss:

Yes. This is why I included the second image. The first shows the actual flipper wiring without the opto-isolator. It was an omission from the manual.

Thanks for confirming. I quite like this. IIRC, my high speed has a second set of leafs outside of the EOS for the lower flippers that operates lane change. I never liked this. I wonder if people have retrofitted this design to older sys11.

#1288 20 days ago

Wanted to share my project from today. Not sure how they will be long term, but about 5 games so far and they seem to be holding up. (Printed in PLA)

3D printed inlane frames for BK2K. They should fit under the plastic stack replacing the original metal guides. These have been modified to extend closer to the flipper, and also with a lower lip, to hopefully provide enough material to keep them together when getting hit by the ball.

When used, ball hop should be pretty much non-existent.

Files are here if you want to try:
https://www.printables.com/model/925091-inlane-frames-for-black-knight-2000

#1289 18 days ago

DumbAss

Quoted from koji:

Wanted to share my project from today. Not sure how they will be long term, but about 5 games so far and they seem to be holding up. (Printed in PLA)
3D printed inlane frames for BK2K. They should fit under the plastic stack replacing the original metal guides. These have been modified to extend closer to the flipper, and also with a lower lip, to hopefully provide enough material to keep them together when getting hit by the ball.
When used, ball hop should be pretty much non-existent.
Files are here if you want to try:
https://www.printables.com/model/925091-inlane-frames-for-black-knight-2000

That's awesome, will have to 3D print these and check them out.

#1290 18 days ago

Has anyone ever converted the upper right flipper over to the Fliptronic spring design successfully?

I just attempted this and noticed that the little spring retainer bracket will now block the path of the ball when attempting to shoot a new ball.

Not sure if my upper playfield isn't angled enough or if I'd have to take a grinder to this little bracket.

UPDATE: It was actually a thick zip tie holding the capacitor to the switch bracket that was causing it to hang up. If you hold the spring retainer bracket upwards when you tighten up the flippers it seems to clear without issue.

1 week later
#1291 9 days ago

Just saw this gem on youtube. Enjoy fellow knights!

#1292 8 days ago
Quoted from Swainer80:

Just saw this gem on youtube. Enjoy fellow knights!

Okay, now do Swords of Fury! <3

#1293 8 days ago
Quoted from Swainer80:

Just saw this gem on youtube. Enjoy fellow knights!

This was epic!!!

Quoted from gunstarhero:

Okay, now do Swords of Fury! <3

Here's my favorite SoF version!

#1294 8 days ago
Quoted from Swainer80:

Just saw this gem on youtube. Enjoy fellow knights!

It feels like Frank Zappa should be the conductor....

#1295 5 days ago
Quoted from scottmaggie:

Anyone have a spare or happen to be reproducing the lower right wire form? Mine has the typical issues...missing 1 leg and other is broken.
[quoted image]

Quoted from lemmings418:

Logan pinball was doing some of these a while ago but don't think he posts anymore.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/black-knight-2000-wireform

Hi all,
KJS got in contact to get these wireforms to market, and seeing as it's a side hobby of mine, I got straight to work reproducing the lower right wireform.

There was no point in making it exactly the same, seeing as there seems to be a recurring theme - the legs break off! So.. I've beefed up all three mounting points to 3mm wire, rather than the original 2mm

I currently do not own the game, so KJS sent me his broken wireform along with diagrams and measurements for the mounting points.

The last two days has been spent building a jig to reproduce this wireform accurately, and today I sent KJS the first prototype for testing. Once tested, I'll be able to launch it on my website for sale. At this stage I haven't done all the costings, so I'll have to get back to you all at a later date on that one.

I'm also currently trying to source the spring, and am just waiting to hear back from some spring suppliers/manufacturers.

I predominantly build alternate wireforms, but lately I've been building reproduction wireforms that usually fix a known issue.

Https://pinball.avidcreations.com.au

For now, enjoy the pics below, and a big thanks goes to KJS for getting in touch.

Cheers

David

20240710_170619 (resized).jpg20240710_170619 (resized).jpg20240711_142320 (resized).jpg20240711_142320 (resized).jpg
#1296 5 days ago

Hey David. Eagerly looking forward to seeing these. I'm based NZ and was missing the spring completely. After wading through multiple packs at the local diy retailer Mitre 10 I came across Century Spring C205 that is a perfect fit along with champion 6mm rubber cap end....Not sure if it will fit the beefier wireframe but might be of use. Keep up the great work.

Spring SIze (resized).jpgSpring SIze (resized).jpg
#1297 4 days ago

I also suggest making the alternate ramp where the ball drops in the right lane. That will save a ton of lower playfields from damage by simply adding a cliffy switch protector.

#1298 4 days ago
Quoted from scottmaggie:

I also suggest making the alternate ramp where the ball drops in the right lane. That will save a ton of lower playfields from damage by simply adding a cliffy switch protector.

I think gameplay wise having it cross over to the left inlane would be very interesting. BUT... it would need to be easily removable for the PF service lift.

#1299 3 days ago
Quoted from scottmaggie:

I also suggest making the alternate ramp where the ball drops in the right lane. That will save a ton of lower playfields from damage by simply adding a cliffy switch protector.

I kinda like this idea except I’m wondering if a piece of mylar in front of sling would work. Most have them.. those little half circle pieces.

#1300 3 days ago
Quoted from Gedc:

Hey David. Eagerly looking forward to seeing these. I'm based NZ and was missing the spring completely. After wading through multiple packs at the local diy retailer Mitre 10 I came across Century Spring C205 that is a perfect fit along with champion 6mm rubber cap end....Not sure if it will fit the beefier wireframe but might be of use. Keep up the great work.
[quoted image]

Hi mate, thanks for the heads up. The wire where the spring slides onto hasn't been changed from its original sizing, so this is a fantastic solution. I was just quoted $275 setup fee, for a spring company to make me a dozen of them. Heading to google now.

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