(Topic ID: 203064)

Black Hole startup issues

By itsab67

6 years ago


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  • 41 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by itsab67
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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#1 6 years ago

A few days ago my black hole game was being played heavily by a few friends. After awhile the Game wouldn't start a new game so it was switched off.
When I turn the game on the displays alternate between 0 and highest score. playfield lights(general illumination) are on.(every thing appears normal at this point) But when i press the start button the player 1 display shows zero, the rest of the playfield lights that should come on dont, no sound, and the solenoid that should kick the ball into the shooter lane doesn't fire. it appears to be dead at this point. cycle power and the same thing happens. ive checked all fuses, reseated all connections serveral times, looked for the obvious such as stuck switches, slam switch, broken wires. i measured all voltages on pwr supply board (they seem to be ok).
Any advise of what to try next? Any idea what is wrong?

#2 6 years ago

Is the front door slam switch closed? Or a wire to the slam switch loose?

#3 6 years ago
Quoted from Tehachapin:

Is the front door slam switch closed? Or a wire to the slam switch loose?

yes switch is closed and wires to it seem secure

#4 6 years ago

update, i should have mentioned that also no solenoids fire during solenoid test (red button behind coin door)

#5 6 years ago
Quoted from itsab67:

update, i should have mentioned that also no solenoids fire during solenoid test (red button behind coin door)

ok, turns out F4 solenoid fuse was ss blown and i had no power to solenoids, replacing that solved that issue. Still when i press the start button the sound comes on, the kicker kicks the ball and as soon as it does this the sound stops, so the game doesn't ever actually start. suggestions?

#6 6 years ago

Hi,

If I understand correctly, the outhole ejector works well (sol #9), but then the balls are stuck in the charger, right?

OK. On the black hole, the balls are stored in the charger. Basically, the outhole should be always empty. As soon as a ball is detected by the SW15 (outhole contact), it is ejected to the charger using the solenoid #9 (protected by the F15 fuse).
This can be checked using the solenoid test.
The balls then, remains in the charger, as they are locked by the ball release gate ("Wireform ball gate"). When this gate open, it release a ball that roll by gravity to the launcher lane.

At game start, a startup sound is played, then the "Wireform ball gate" is activated to release one ball.
The "3rd position ball return" switch (SW25) is checked to verify if the ball has been released. If not, it try again and again. The CPU program wait until the ball is released, and then play another sound (backgound/music).

So, it appear that the ball release system doesn't works. You have the first sound, but as the ball remain locked, the process loop infinity and never play the background music. Two possibilities for this issue:
- Either the 3rd ball position is not detected - in this case check the SW25 contact - can be done using the SW test.
- Either the solenoid is not activated.

The "wireform ball gate" solenoid is driven by a lamp (L15) and a transistor located under the playfield (Q2 - 2N5875), protected by a fuse F16. This cannot be tested using the sol. test, as this one use a lamp to command the coil.

So, first check the F16 fuse (1A SB), may be this one is burned.

#7 6 years ago

Thanks for your reply, i have read through your reply and checked the fuse, it checks ok, the switch test reports 99.
if im correct 99 means all switches are ok correct? where would I go from here now?

#8 6 years ago

Yes, 99 means that all swithes are open, but you need to verify if the SW25 is correctly detected:
- remove the apron to access to the charger.
- remove the three balls, so that, you can see the SW25 located under the charger.
Now enter the switch test mode and manually press the SW25 switch. If it is detected the display should show "25". Release the switch and the display will show "99".
If SW25 is not detected, the problem is mainly mechanical. Check the switch itself and the wire that press on it.

If the SW25 is well detected, then the problem is the solenoid command itself.
As F16 fuse is OK, in this case, the source of the problem can be transistor on the driver (command of L15 lamp) or the underplayfield transistor (Q2).

#9 6 years ago

ok, sw25 was not detected, i will check the switch and wiring and trace back to the board. i will report back on what i found tomorrow evening to let you know.

#10 6 years ago

Show noflip some love my friend. He's doing a great job of leading you to the solution.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#11 6 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Show noflip some love my friend. He's doing a great job of leading you to the solution.

i don't understand, did i say or do something wrong? i sincerely appreciate noflps help, i only said i would report back tomorrow, which i will because im not able to get to it right now for various reasons
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#12 6 years ago

Nope. You didn’t say or do anything wrong. I was complimenting noflip on his methodical guidance.

Let us know how it turns out. Interesting.

Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#13 6 years ago
Quoted from itsab67:

ok, sw25 was not detected, i will check the switch and wiring and trace back to the board. i will report back on what i found tomorrow evening to let you know.

ok, so i attempted to follow your last instructions tonight. i turned on the game and ran a switch test expecting to see 99 like before, instead it said 4 and 15. which i thought was strange as i have no touched the machine since we last "spoke". i pressed the play button and the captive hole kicker on the upper play field now cycles on and off intill i switch the game off. it wasn't doing this before and I've done nothing to it, very strange. it appears through all this that the wire form ball kicker/gate still doesn't function. i was hoping the problem was something simple, i worry its more serious. ill wait for your reply. thanks very much.

#14 6 years ago

Have you done the ground mods on this game?

#15 6 years ago
Quoted from itsab67:

ok, so i attempted to follow your last instructions tonight. i turned on the game and ran a switch test expecting to see 99 like before, instead it said 4 and 15.

Don't worry, it may be normal.
When you launch the test mode, the pinball is frozen : if a ball stay in the outhole, it is not ejected, and if a drop target is downed, the bank is not reseted.
So you can have some drop target detected (the contact is maintained, as long as the target is down).

On BH, the SW04 is the "left #4 drop target 'C' " so, if this one is down it is detected !
The SW15 is the "outhole", so if a ball stay in it, it is also normal.

The switch matrix can indeed have a problem, but usually, a full row or column fail and not only one or two contacts. So, I doubt that the issue is a switch matrix on the CPU board.

#16 6 years ago

Black Hole gets upset if it doesn't see all the balls in the trough. It will register the start button, but it just sits there waiting for all the balls to drain.

I would take the apron off and put three balls in the trough, then start a switch test. (Raise all the drops first so there are no false positives.) With three *balls* in the trough, you should see three closed fingers. (Sometimes the ball won't close a switch, but a finger will.) If any of those switches aren't working, the game just won't start. I have seen strange things happen in some troughs (my Firepower in particular) where the problem is really only evident when the playfield is in the game in its usual position, and less so when it's raised.

If only one switch is failing, it has to be something wrong with that switch or its diode. It must be a "local" problem.

#17 6 years ago
Quoted from frunch:

Have you done the ground mods on this game?

yes ground mods were all done long ago

#18 6 years ago
Quoted from frunch:

Have you done the ground mods on this game?

yes ground mods were done long ago

#19 6 years ago
Quoted from noflip95:

Don't worry, it may be normal.
When you launch the test mode, the pinball is frozen : if a ball stay in the outhole, it is not ejected, and if a drop target is downed, the bank is not reseted.
So you can have some drop target detected (the contact is maintained, as long as the target is down).
On BH, the SW04 is the "left #4 drop target 'C' " so, if this one is down it is detected !
The SW15 is the "outhole", so if a ball stay in it, it is also normal.
The switch matrix can indeed have a problem, but usually, a full row or column fail and not only one or two contacts. So, I doubt that the issue is a switch matrix on the CPU board.

all drop targets are in the up position, all contacts with respect to the drop targets seem good. There is nothing in the captive hole. the captive hole switch seems good... yet it switch test reports 4 and 15. and the solenoid for the captive hole fires on and off over and over again. 4 and 15 are on the same column as 25 which was the original problem. is it possible the whole column is messed up? something on the driver board needs replacing? but what on the driver board?

#20 6 years ago

maybe a simpler way to explain, if i put the ball in the trough at the solenoid at the top of the picture and press the start button the captive hole solenoid cycles on and off till you switch the game off. it wasn't doing this before. Before the problem was the solenoid at the bottom of the picture wasn't working at all. At this point i feel im over my head, my game is dead. feeling sad.

1511523757929844247967 (resized).jpg1511523757929844247967 (resized).jpg

#21 6 years ago
Quoted from noflip95:

Yes, 99 means that all swithes are open, but you need to verify if the SW25 is correctly detected:
- remove the apron to access to the charger.
- remove the three balls, so that, you can see the SW25 located under the charger.
Now enter the switch test mode and manually press the SW25 switch. If it is detected the display should show "25". Release the switch and the display will show "99".
If SW25 is not detected, the problem is mainly mechanical. Check the switch itself and the wire that press on it.
If the SW25 is well detected, then the problem is the solenoid command itself.
As F16 fuse is OK, in this case, the source of the problem can be transistor on the driver (command of L15 lamp) or the underplayfield transistor (Q2).

Ok i had some trouble there, where different things were happening than originally described in this thread. after wiggling and re-seating every single connector in the game Im back to the original problem.

So following your instructions (as quoted above) this is what i found;

When i do switch test i get 99.....if i press sw25 it still show 99, if i press sw15 it still show 99. If i press sw20 is show sw20, when i let go of sw20, it continue to disply sw20, it does not go back to sw99( not going back to 99..., i don't know if that is a problem or not?)

So because sw25 was not detected Im assuming the problem is mechanical , so i have checked all wiring to sw25 and also sw15, checked the contacts, they open and close nicely.
I've checked all fuses, looked for loose wires, re-seated connectors. Any other suggestions or ideas of what to check or do would be most appreciated and welcome. Thanks to all for pitching in.

20171124_142241 (resized).jpg20171124_142241 (resized).jpg

#22 6 years ago

Let's test the rest of the switches on the same row as the outhole switch.
Again, go into switch test.
Actuate the switches shown in the attached pic.
Let us know.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

BlackHoleSwitchMatrix (resized).jpgBlackHoleSwitchMatrix (resized).jpg

#23 6 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Let's test the rest of the switches on the same row as the outhole switch.
Again, go into switch test.
Actuate the switches shown in the attached pic.
Let us know.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

ok i just tested each one, none of them registered, the display showed 99 the whole time. tried a couple others that are not on the chart you provided and they did register. the ones on the chart did not. So this means the whole row is gone? something on the driver board?

#24 6 years ago

As ChrisHibler said, I'm affraid that something is burned on your CPU board. Note that, the switch matrix is directly connected to the CPU board, using the A1J6 connector and don't use the driver board. If you have re-seated the A1J6, then a bad contact can be exclude.

I think that the issue is not with rows, but columns (returns).
Considering that SW15 and SW25 are not responding, the return signal R5 is probably out. Using the test procedure, check if the SW35 - "RIGHT RETURN ROLLOVER" is detected or not. If not, sure that the R5 is faulty.

On the CPU board, the R5 signal arrive at pin 15 of A1J6. Then it enter a 7400 IC (Z14) and a RIOT (U4).
Most of the time, the problems with the switch matrix are cause by high-voltage entering the logic circuits and destroying them (no more than 7 volts allowed here). This may happen when the switch are located near a coil, and when the 24v is accidentally connected to the matrix.
matrix2.jpgmatrix2.jpg
Usually, only the 7400 burn and not the RIOT (U4). But sometimes, both burn.

If you have some skill in electronic, you can try to replace the Z14 by yourself. Of course, the IC must be replaced and mounted on a socket. It is not very complicated, but you have to be very careful because it is easy to damage the board.
Otherwise, it is best to have your card tested by a professional and have it repaired.

#25 6 years ago

Yes sir. That means the entire row is out.
Possible causes...
...a break in the wire between those switches and MPU connector A1J6.
...a crappy connection at the IDC connector A1J6. Either wire to connector or connector pin to board edge connector.
...a fault of the 7400 IC at Z14.
...a fault of the 6532 at U4.

Easy things first.
Remove A1J6. Look inside at the pins, particularly pin 2. All shiny with good tension?

Next, use your meter to buzz from one of the row switches to that connector pin. Got tone?


Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#26 6 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Yes sir. That means the entire row is out.
Possible causes...
...a break in the wire between those switches and MPU connector A1J6.
...a crappy connection at the IDC connector A1J6. Either wire to connector or connector pin to board edge connector.
...a fault of the 7400 IC at Z14.
...a fault of the 6532 at U4.
Easy things first.
Remove A1J6. Look inside at the pins, particularly pin 2. All shiny with good tension?
Next, use your meter to buzz from one of the row switches to that connector pin. Got tone?

Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

ok ill do those tests and report back. thinking ahead instead of repairing the board, would it be better to just buy a replacement driver board, one thats new rather than almost 40 years old?

#27 6 years ago
Quoted from noflip95:

As ChrisHibler said, I'm affraid that something is burned on your CPU board. Note that, the switch matrix is directly connected to the CPU board, using the A1J6 connector and don't use the driver board. If you have re-seated the A1J6, then a bad contact can be exclude.
I think that the issue is not with rows, but columns (returns).
Considering that SW15 and SW25 are not responding, the return signal R5 is probably out. Using the test procedure, check if the SW35 - "RIGHT RETURN ROLLOVER" is detected or not. If not, sure that the R5 is faulty.
On the CPU board, the R5 signal arrive at pin 15 of A1J6. Then it enter a 7400 IC (Z14) and a RIOT (U4).
Most of the time, the problems with the switch matrix are cause by high-voltage entering the logic circuits and destroying them (no more than 7 volts allowed here). This may happen when the switch are located near a coil, and when the 24v is accidentally connected to the matrix.

Usually, only the 7400 burn and not the RIOT (U4). But sometimes, both burn.
If you have some skill in electronic, you can try to replace the Z14 by yourself. Of course, the IC must be replaced and mounted on a socket. It is not very complicated, but you have to be very careful because it is easy to damage the board.
Otherwise, it is best to have your card tested by a professional and have it repaired.

I tested sw35 (Right Return Rollover) with he switch test. When i press sw35, the display shows sw24 !!!!. According to my book, Right Return Rollover is SW35.....for some reason it shows SW24. Read my reply to the next post, might be a clue in there somewhere

#28 6 years ago
Quoted from itsab67:

would it be better to just buy a replacement driver board

Nope. The issue is on your MPU board, not the driver board.
And, the "new" RottenDog and Swemmer boards are copies of the original, using the same technology. But, there are no readily available schematics or depth of experience working on those boards. The only redesigned board is Pascal Janin's PI-80, which is a nice board. Pricey.

IMHO, it's always best to fix the OEM board (exception being Gottlieb System 1).
Once we get this isolated to the board, you can send it to me for repair if you'd like.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#29 6 years ago

Here's the whole switch matrix.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

BlackHoleSwitchMatrix (resized).jpgBlackHoleSwitchMatrix (resized).jpg

#30 6 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Yes sir. That means the entire row is out.
Possible causes...
...a break in the wire between those switches and MPU connector A1J6.
...a crappy connection at the IDC connector A1J6. Either wire to connector or connector pin to board edge connector.
...a fault of the 7400 IC at Z14.
...a fault of the 6532 at U4.
Easy things first.
Remove A1J6. Look inside at the pins, particularly pin 2. All shiny with good tension?
Next, use your meter to buzz from one of the row switches to that connector pin. Got tone?

Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

I Checked A1J6, its looks to be ok. all pins appear clean and properly tensioned.

I buzzed all wires From A1J6 Strobe 1 (pin2) and Strobe 2 (pin3) to each switch listed in the row. My meter was set to continuity, it beeps. i wasn't able to get a beep on any switch, but i did get a resistance reading on all switches in the row. reversed the leads (there are diodes in there) and i read nothing on any switch. I then measured from pin 2 to each columb (pins 10 through 16) and got same results.....resistance readings and nothing with leads reversed. I then repeated the same procedure but this time from pin 3 ...same results as pin 2.

I noticed there are a couple switches when doing switch test that dont register the number listed on the switch matrix in the manual. one example. The right return rollover should be SW35 and the display shows SW24 for me when i press that switch during switch test.

And as always the one ball kicker works the other dosent, the attached animated gif below shows what happens.

ezgif.com-video-to-gif (resized).pngezgif.com-video-to-gif (resized).png

#31 6 years ago

No animation...which might be what you are seeing.

Reporting 24 when 35 is pressed is odd.
You can do two things that will help us debug.

1. Use the switch matrix image to indicate working, non working, or reporting incorrect switch number. Check for working. X for not working. Reported switch number when incorrect switch is reported.

2. You can diode test the switch strobe ICs using this procedure.
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=General#Testing_an_integrated_circuit

Here’s what we are trying to determine.
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Blown_Switch_Matrix_ICs

Really, it’s only probable that one of them is bad. But test all five, 2X 7400, 2X 7404, 1X 7432

“No one escapes the black hole”


Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#32 6 years ago

The 7404 at Z12 is of most interest.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#33 6 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

No animation...which might be what you are seeing.
Reporting 24 when 35 is pressed is odd.
You can do
two things that will help us debug.
1. Use the switch matrix image to indicate working, non working, or reporting incorrect switch number. Check for working. X for not working. Reported switch number when incorrect switch is reported.
2. You can diode test the switch strobe ICs using this procedure.
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=General#Testing_an_integrated_circuit
Here’s what we are trying to determine.
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Blown_Switch_Matrix_ICs
Really, it’s only probable that one of them is bad. But test all five, 2X 7400, 2X 7404, 1X 7432
“No one escapes the black hole”

Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

Ok here are the results i found;

U4 (resized).jpgU4 (resized).jpg

Matrix results (resized).jpgMatrix results (resized).jpg

Z11 (resized).jpgZ11 (resized).jpg

Z13 (resized).jpgZ13 (resized).jpg

Z12 (resized).jpgZ12 (resized).jpg

Z14 (resized).jpgZ14 (resized).jpg

Z15 (resized).jpgZ15 (resized).jpg

#34 6 years ago

You get an A+ on your homework!
good news. Z11-Z15 are fine.
And, I think that U4 is fine too.

Post a pic of connector J6 on the MPU (lower edge, left). Has someone used a Jamma connector there that may have slid? Is there any evidence that J6 has been repinned?
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#35 6 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

You get an A+ on your homework!
good news. Z11-Z15 are fine.
And, I think that U4 is fine too.
Post a pic of connector J6 on the MPU (lower edge, left). Has someone used a Jamma connector there that may have slid? Is there any evidence that J6 has been repinned?
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Evidence! plenty of evidence. Yes J6 has been repined. When you mentioned connector shifting... i had a close look at the repined connectors. J6 has something in it so it is keyed and will only fit one way. But i noticed a 1mm gap on the right hand side between it and the boards edge... i repositioned it so there was no gap. Guess what.... it works!! This has been driving me nuts. Its risen from the dead. You sir are a genius!! Thank you so very very much for all your time and help and education that you have given me. I've included so photos so you know what I mean. zoom in on right side of the connector, one photo theres is a small gap, next photo no gap.
Thanks so much!

I should replace that connector, what's best to use.

20171126_212038 (resized).jpg20171126_212038 (resized).jpg

20171126_212057 (resized).jpg20171126_212057 (resized).jpg

20171126_212114 (resized).jpg20171126_212114 (resized).jpg

#36 6 years ago

Gaaaack!
Jamma-Lamma-Ding-Dong.
All of those need to be replaced.
Connector housings and crimp pins for J5 and J6 can be found at www.greatplainselectronics.com

The harness that connects J4 to the driver board can be found here. Pricey. They may be available elsewhere. Check pbresource too.
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/CAGS3-A1J4

I’d be concerned about alkaline corrosion on the card edge pads. If you remove the MPU and the card edge pads aren’t clean, sand lightly then tin with a small amount of solder.

The MPU looks to have a small amount of residual corrosion near the battery connections. If the traces are discolored, that is corrosion. Eventually it will need to be dealt with. Sooner is better as it will spread.

Glad you got it going again. Enjoy.

Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#37 6 years ago

Docent electronics has the J4 connectors, the kit includes a tool for pulling the connectors out of the old housings (the kit is only the wiring with the connectors crimped on, you reuse the old housings)...$26 + shipping:
http://www.docentelectronics.com/httpdocs/AmusementGames/Pinball/Gottlieb/system%2080.htm

#38 6 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Gaaaack!
Jamma-Lamma-Ding-Dong.
All of those need to be replaced.
Connector housings and crimp pins for J5 and J6 can be found at http://www.greatplainselectronics.com
The harness that connects J4 to the driver board can be found here. Pricey. They may be available elsewhere. Check pbresource too.
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/CAGS3-A1J4
I’d be concerned about alkaline corrosion on the card edge pads. If you remove the MPU and the card edge pads aren’t clean, sand lightly then tin with a small amount of solder.
The MPU looks to have a small amount of residual corrosion near the battery connections. If the traces are discolored, that is corrosion. Eventually it will need to be dealt with. Sooner is better as it will spread.
Glad you got it going again. Enjoy.

Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

J5 and J6... what are those connector types called so I know what to look for?

#39 6 years ago
Quoted from itsab67:

J5 and J6... what are those connector types called so I know what to look for?

Great Plains Electronics has edge connectors and housings here: https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/products.asp?cat=77

#40 6 years ago
Quoted from frunch:

Great Plains Electronics has edge connectors and housings here: https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/products.asp?cat=77

Yep....just select the right number of pins.
Each connector is "number of pins specific". i.e. They can't be cut down to be resized.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#41 6 years ago

Ok. Thanks to everyone for their input and help. Cheers

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