Black Hole
Gottlieb, 1981Quoted from Matthew2015:so i will change the UDN6118 chips if that's the problem
Don't do it blindly. You can just test the UDN6118 chips first without removing them.
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/File:TestingUDN6118AndUDN7180.jpg
okay , i will test them with the multimeter first.
i did more testing on the drop targets . the ones on the right work now after adjusting the switches but the left ones don't work , tried adjusting switches on left ones but no luck. fuse tested good but i can rule that out since it controls both sets of drop targets . tried coil test and left drop target coil is not turning on.
Quoted from Matthew2015:... fuse tested good but i can rule that out since it controls both sets of drop targets . tried coil test and left drop target coil is not turning on.
You can just measure resistance of coil to see if it's shorted or open.
it has a diode , so the test diode first and replace if bad?
could the coil itself go bad.?
i will have to lookup exactly how to test coil
i did test the Resistance on the coil lugs and it measured 3.7 which is the correct rating for this coil. but it does have a diode on it so could it be that ?
the coil is a GTB-A17891 with a ohm reading of 3.7 listed on this site.
seems like only the lower right playfield drop targets and the right upper ones work but the lower left and upper left playfield drop targets are still not working.
would i need still need to change the diode even if the coil is reading the correct ohms? i checked fuses and nothing wrong with those.
Quoted from Matthew2015:seems like only the lower right playfield drop targets and the right upper ones work but the lower left and upper left playfield drop targets are still not working.
would i need still need to change the diode even if the coil is reading the correct ohms? i checked fuses and nothing wrong with those.
Is there a switch stack associated with those drop targets?
i don't know if there is a switch stack but i got the rest the the drop targets working .
it was because of the interconnect cables that connect the mpu and driver board were not making a good connection.
its because the bifurcated edge connectors were bent out of shape in a way that was not making contact with the connection slot pins on mpu and driver board
so i will crimp some new edge connectors in the interconnect cables.
system15 (resized).jpgright now i need to order a couple of switches and a few bulb sockets to replace the ones that are corroded and broken. then that should be everything done as far as gameplay is concerned.
the only other thing to do is fix the disk that spins in the backbox.
seems like the wires broke off from the spinner motor , but i think these are right wires i have taped together . not sure how it all hooks together.
20230106_020857 (resized).jpgQuoted from Matthew2015:not sure how it all hooks together.
Don't you have a schematic to look at?
Screen Shot 2023-01-06 at 12.15.34 PM (resized).png
Based on this, the motor connects to a Green (ground) and a Orange-Red-Red (322).
i do , but i must have not seen it . though i was wondering about what the things labeled "10 UH" do.
Quoted from Matthew2015:i do , but i must have not seen it . though i was wondering about what the things labeled "10 UH" do.
This is the symbol for an inductor.
Screen Shot 2023-01-06 at 8.01.13 PM (resized).png
UH is μH, AKA "micro-henry". A "henry" is how you measure inductance. Analogous to "farad" as the measure of capacitance.
Inductors are the "electrical opposite" of capacitors. Where a capacitor resists changes in voltage, an inductor resists changes in current.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductor
Since the inductor and capacitor symbols are inside the dotted line identified as "Motor Assembly", these components are presumably somewhere inside the motor/gearbox housing. Basically, the inductors and capacitors inside the motor look like protection from electrical spikes that would be created by stopping/starting the motor itself.
seemed like i thought was done . but one of these pop bumpers are still giving me trouble . even after replacing the lower center pop bumper driver with a new one it still does not work . when i boot the pinball it fires the pop bumper and locks it on which blows the fuse.
not yet , but i noticed that unlike the other coils this one lacks a diode on it.
but i put a new pop bumper board on it so unless its bad , maybe its something i wired wrong.
Quoted from Matthew2015:even after replacing the lower center pop bumper driver with a new one it still does not work . when i boot the pinball it fires the pop bumper and locks it on which blows the fuse.
It's very important to understand how these work. The coil of a pop bumper and the MPU have nothing to do with each other. So rule out everything there.
The ball hits the plastic ring that pushes on a switch. The switch sends a 5 volt signal to the pop bumper driver board telling it to energize the the bumper coil with 38 volts.
One side of the coil is wired to the positive side of 38 VDC all the time the game is on. The other side is wired to the pop bumper driver board, which when fired, connects it to ground very briefly, thereby energizing the solenoid.
It's not the switch that activates the pop bumper as this would only fire the coil, not lock it on.
If the solenoid locks on simply by turning on the game, there are very few thing it could be...
1. You have a bad pop bumper driver board transistor that is shorted to ground.
2. You have a wiring fault that has the other side of the solenoid coil always connected to ground.
i guess its possible my new pop bumper driver has a bad transistor but i think maybe its due to the wires that i rewired that go to that pop bumper.
but i will look at it torrmmorw , and send pics of it.
Quoted from Matthew2015:but i think maybe its due to the wires that i rewired that go to that pop bumper.
Sounds like you have a solid ground on the other side of the coil. That is easy to check with a DMM. Look at schematic to identify which side goes back to the driver board. Lift the wire and measure continuity to ground on this side. It should read open.
now the coil i am having a problem with is the lower center coil which already has a new pop bumper board on it.
but i am unsure of my wiring. i have the left side of the coil with a yellow/slate colors wire and the right with a green/red.
also has no diode on coil. the wires were not long enough so i to add in a extra wires to reach the coil so i know i did not do best job with that.
but i will look in the manual for the ground wire and test it . i found the part in the manual that shows how to wire it but still need to look it over to fully understand . i already did test ground to switch from pop bumper board. is the diode needed ? and why is it important.?
if i got the wires reversed on the coil would that cause the problem i am having ?
IMG_4520.JPGIMG_4521.JPGIMG_4522.JPGpop bumper wiring.pngwire colors.png
Quoted from Matthew2015:if i got the wires reversed on the coil would that cause the problem i am having ?
The coil does not care about the polarity. Only the diode's polarity matters.
Quoted from Matthew2015:i already did test ground to switch from pop bumper board.
Can you elaborate about what exactly you tested and what you found? The switch has nothing to do with this...
Quoted from sparky672:Sounds like you have a solid ground on the other side of the coil. That is easy to check with a DMM. Look at schematic to identify which side goes back to the driver board. Lift the wire and measure continuity to ground on this side. It should read open.
You do NOT want to see ground on the coil... a ground on one side with 38 VDC on the other is precisely what is locking it on.
Quoted from Matthew2015:... but i am unsure of my wiring ... also has no diode on coil ... and why is it important.?
As it stands, you cannot trust that your pop bumper driver transistor has not been damaged by lack of diode. This driver transistor shorted to ground could be what's causing your coils to lock on.
No diode on the coil is potentially fatal to the transistor on the driver board, and I am not sure why you would leave those out.
You really need to get it wired correctly, including a proper diode in the correct polarity, before potentially doing any more damage.
it never had a diode to begin with but it looks like i need to add one .
some reason i should noticed it did not have one since all the others do.
it uses a 1N4004 right?
Quoted from Matthew2015:it never had a diode to begin with but it looks like i need to add one .
Yes, there is a diode shown in the schematic. Missing diode is probably why you had issues with that driver in the first place.
Quoted from Matthew2015:some reason i should noticed it did not have one since all the others do.
it uses a 1N4004 right?
Yes, I believe a 1N4004 should work. Check the others for same.
Quoted from Matthew2015:okay there is one other thing . does it make a difference if the coil is a A-4893 instead of a A-1496?
the coil without the diode is a A-4893 and all the others are A-1496.
The Black Hole manual shows both part numbers as "pop bumpers".
But A-1496 is 2.95 ohms and A-4893 is 2.1 ohms. IMO, that's a big difference. The 2.1 ohm coil (A-4893) is going to draw 50% more current than the other one... but whether or not that makes a difference to how the machine functions is not known to me. Since they're both listed as "pop bumper" coils, it's not the source of your problems. You really need to get a diode installed and then verify that your driver boards are not blown.
okay i put the diode in but i tested the transistor on the pop driver board and the transistor is bad .
i tested the transistor with this method.
TIP102: Put the black lead of the DMM on the metal tab of the transistor. Put the red lead of the DMM on each of the two outside legs of the transistor. A reading of .4 to .6 volts should be seen. Put the red lead on the center transistor leg (collector), and a zero reading should be seen. Any other value, and the transistor is bad and will need to be replaced.
Quoted from sparky672:As it stands, you cannot trust that your pop bumper driver transistor has not been damaged by lack of diode.
Quoted from Matthew2015:okay i put the diode in but i tested the transistor on the pop driver board and the transistor is bad .
Makes sense. Running it without the diode likely blew out the driver board transistor.
I'm working on a Black Hole I just got and am having some issues with sound and speech. When I first got it, the game played, but several sounds and speech were missing. Others were present and played at the appropriate times.
I pulled the sound/speech board, reseated all socketed chips, cleaned the edge connector, and replaced one cap that read open in circuit. (The new cap also tested open once installed in the board but was fine on the bench.)
Now, I have all sounds and speech - for a couple of hours. After the game has been on for a couple of hours, I lose some speech. Mostly the re-entry and captive ball call outs. Shut the game off, wait for a few hours, and they all come back.
Any thoughts? I'm guessing the other caps on the board need to be replaced even though they tested fine on the bench. Maybe they are drifting as they heat up? Any other thoughts?
Quoted from sbmania:After the game has been on for a couple of hours, I lose some speech. Mostly the re-entry and captive ball call outs. Shut the game off, wait for a few hours, and they all come back.
You are correct that you have something that is being affected by heat. Components that are 40-years-old can be very sensitive and out of spec. Identifying which components could be tedious. On the other hand, since it's only certain sounds, you may want to focus efforts on your Driver board and connectors. The sound triggers come from the Driver. You can get a logic probe and check outputs next time it fails. Do you have the schematics?
Do not neglect the fact that your connector pins can also be sensitive to heat. Have you re-pinned any connectors? Cleaning will not accomplish much if the metal pins are not springy enough to maintain contact. If they are not maintaining solid contact, temperature can have a huge effect. Not only that, a loose connection will get hot, which then makes the problem worse.
It also might be better to start your own thread specific to your sound issue, rather than hijacking one from somebody else asking for help with pop bumpers.
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