(Topic ID: 247396)

Black Hole no sound


By CanadianGamer

34 days ago



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  • 80 posts
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  • Latest reply 2 days ago by CanadianGamer
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There are 80 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 16 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

Also, just confirm that the connectors for the oscilloscope are black and white (as per the manual). Black in this case connects to ground, white connects to the signal of interest.

Yes that is correct.

Quoted from Quench:

Oh, I glossed over this previous comment of yours from post #44 too quickly. If you're saying you had louder tone volume from the speaker when you hooked up the signal generator to pin 4 of U20 compared to pin 6 of U22, then that doesn't seem right.

Ok thanks, I'll check that again and get right back to you.

#52 16 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

If you're saying you had louder tone volume from the speaker when you hooked up the signal generator to pin 4 of U20 compared to pin 6 of U22

Thanks for catching that, sorry it was my mistake. I tested pin 6 on U20, not U22.

Pin 6 on U22 is louder than pin 4 on U20.

#53 16 days ago
Quoted from CanadianGamer:

Pin 6 on U22 is louder than pin 4 on U20.

Sorry, can you explain exactly what you've just tested? Depending what you've done this result is either good or maybe bad.

I got them reversed in my previous post. I think I've confused myself with what I asked you to do

#54 16 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

Sorry, can you explain exactly what you've just tested? Depending what you've done this result is either good or maybe bad.
I got them reversed in my previous post. I think I've confused myself with what I asked you to do

Ok, I touched pin 4 of U20 and pin 6 of U22 with the sound generator positive lead to see which tone was louder. Pin 6 of U22 was louder than pin 4 of U20 when I touched them with the positive lead of the sound generator.

#55 16 days ago
Quoted from CanadianGamer:

Pin 6 of U22 was louder than pin 4 of U20 when I touched them with the positive lead of the sound generator.

Ok, contrary to what I said in post #49 I'd expect pin 4 on U20 to be louder than pin 6 on U22 when you're injecting the signal generator tone, because when you're injecting it into pin 4 on U20 it should then get amplified by U22. When you inject the tone signal on the output pin 6 of U22, you're not getting that stage of amplification so pin 6 of U22 should have been quieter.

I think it's time to order two 741 op-amps and first replace U22. If it revives the sound effect volumes, then replace U21 for the speech side.
LM741 / UA741 op-amps are common and very cheap.

#56 16 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

I think it's time to order two 741 op-amps and first replace U22. If it revives the sound effect volumes, then replace U21 for the speech side.
LM741 / UA741 op-amps are common and very cheap.

Done! Well it will be in a moment. Thanks a bunch Quench, I'll post again as soon as I have them in. If I can't get them from Vancouver then it might take a week or so before I get them in.

#57 16 days ago

If you're in a position where it's going to take a week to get the op-amps, then just unsolder and remove U22. Turn all the volume controls up and start a game. If the sounds during game are the same quiet level as before, I think it would give more evidence to U22 being faulty (dead).

#58 16 days ago

I just ordered them from Vancouver. It's a long weekend here so they won't ship out till Tuesday but that's ok, should be overnight.

I will take U22 out and see what happens while I'm waiting for parts. Thanks.

Fingers crossed!

#59 15 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

If you're in a position where it's going to take a week to get the op-amps, then just unsolder and remove U22. Turn all the volume controls up and start a game. If the sounds during game are the same quiet level as before, I think it would give more evidence to U22 being faulty (dead).

I removed U22 and reinstalled the sound board, and actually the sound was louder now but still no speech at all. Isn't it supposed to say something when you start a game?

Video shows how much louder it got. Still crackly but much louder sounds.

#60 15 days ago
Quoted from CanadianGamer:

I removed U22 and reinstalled the sound board, and actually the sound was louder now

I'd say that's a good sign U22 was faulty.

Quoted from CanadianGamer:

but still no speech at all. Isn't it supposed to say something when you start a game?

U22 doesn't have anything to do with speech. It's the other op-amp at U21 that's in the speech path.
The manual explains when speech (and what phrases) occurs. See below.
When the ball enters the lower playfield the speech should make an "ouuuw" sound. When the ball gets kicked back up to the main playfield it will speak one of the "Re-Entry..." phrases.
Spell the drop targets in order to get the "G-Force accelerated" speech. All other speech happens at random times.

BlackHole_Speech.jpg

#61 15 days ago

Hopefully U21 will get some speech back. I hope it's ok to run the game for a few minutes without U22 installed... I ran it through the sound tests. Some sounds played well, some scratchy, and some not at all. I started a game and completed drop targets in order, and there was no speech. I ran the ball through the lower playfield and back but no speech.

I guess we'll know more by Wednesday/Thursday this week when the 741's are installed. If you think of any other parts I might need, let me know and I can hopefully order it from the same place to save a little shipping. Thanks!

#62 15 days ago
Quoted from CanadianGamer:

Some sounds played well, some scratchy, and some not at all.

There's actually a couple of sound effects that are just a scratchy type noise which is normal, for example when you hit the drop targets in order (strange choice of sound effect for a good achievement).

Quoted from CanadianGamer:

If you think of any other parts I might need, let me know and I can hopefully order it from the same place to save a little shipping.

If you want, you could get some (two) replacement DACs just incase. The originals were "1408-6" which are obsolete, but "DAC0808" should be a suitable replacement. If you get them make sure they're not surface mount versions, you want DIP version.

#63 10 days ago

When I took out U22, the sounds got louder. I just put the new 741 into U22 and the sounds are again very faint like they were before removing U22... Damn. I wasn't able to get the DAC's on this order unfortunately. Is that the next direction? Or where do we go from here? Thanks.

#64 10 days ago

Got to my Black Hole in storage today. Took some crappy photos with my oscilloscope.
The U22 op-amp appears to simply be acting as a buffer - it's not really performing much amplification.
The test button on the sound board causes it to play a tone for about a second. Press it again and it plays tone again plus maybe something else? Press it a third time and it produces some speech, can't exactly remember what it said but something about "completed". Press it a 4th time and it starts from the tone again. I couldn't take a photo of the tone wave as I ran out of hands - at pin 6 of U22 it was a sawtooth waveform between 0 volts and 6 volts.

The middle leg of pot R16 produced a signal of about 1 volt peak to peak when speech was playing. Sorry, not enough hands to take a snapshot

The output of my amplifier is clearly distorting (my R15 pot needs to be adjusted to reduce the music volume going into the amp).

The last waveform was very high frequency noise - it's a positive reference voltage used by the U20 DAC. The negative reference voltage on the DAC at pin 16 measured -7 volts.

Check the DC power voltages on the U20 DAC, they're listed on the schematics.
Pin 3 should be -12 volts
Pin 2 should be ground (zero volts)
Pin 13 should be 5 volts

Then try to measure the pins as per below on your oscilloscope to see what amplitude you're getting in relation to my waveforms.

Pin 2 of U22 with background game music

Pin 6 of U22 with background game music

Amplifier output at pin 7 of connector P1 with background game music

Pin 14 of U20

#65 8 days ago

All my voltages were right, same as what you listed,

Quoted from Quench:

Pin 3 should be -12 volts (-11.86)
Pin 2 should be ground (zero volts) (check)
Pin 13 should be 5 volts (4.8)

With game started and background music playing faintly:

1st Photo pin 2 of U22
2nd photo pin 6 of U22 (line disappears when touching pin)
3rd photo pin 7 of connnector P1
4th photo pin 14 of U20 (line jumps to top of screen)

My oscilloscope is still new and I don't know if it needs calibration, I'm just not sure how to do it if it did. I've found the settings for it, but don't know how to generate a 20khz signal for it to read, nor do I know how to adjust it for calibration.

IMG_4152 (resized).JPGIMG_4153 (resized).JPGIMG_4155 (resized).JPGIMG_4161 (resized).JPG

#66 7 days ago
Quoted from CanadianGamer:

2nd photo pin 6 of U22 (line disappears when touching pin)

The line is probably going off the scale on this measurement. Can you change the oscilloscope from 2 to 5 volts per division and retest?

BTW when you short the probe input connectors together, where does the blue oscilloscope line go on the display? is it along the vertical centre of the grid?

Quoted from CanadianGamer:

My oscilloscope is still new and I don't know if it needs calibration, I'm just not sure how to do it if it did. I've found the settings for it, but don't know how to generate a 20khz signal for it to read, nor do I know how to adjust it for calibration.

Grab the latest version of the manual - it explains calibrating the unit.

https://github.com/SeeedDocument/DSO_Nano_v3/raw/master/res/DS201V_4.22%20User%20Manual%EF%BC%88Increase%20the%20alignment%20and%20hidden%20reference%20line%EF%BC%89.pdf

#67 6 days ago

Just a quick question first off. Where is the best place to ground the oscilloscope negative probe? I've been using the negative leg of a capacitor that seemed like the only convenient place to hook on. Does it have to be somewhere on the sound board?

Just for reference, my oscilloscope model is the DSO Nano V3, manual is here, and thanks for getting me to go back and try to figure out calibration.
http://www.seeedstudio.com/document/pdf/DSO%20Nano%20V3%20User%27s%20manual.pdf

First pic set to 5v, pin 6 of U22 with background music playing. Blue line is kind of dotted and moving along the bottom.

2nd pic is with nothing connected, voltage as shown.

3rd pic is when touching the to probes together, the line goes flat.
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When calibrating according to the manual (I figured it out that I should use the built in wave generator to generate a 20khz signal) I got this pic of a 20khz signal from wave out. It looks like a square wave?... Is that good?
IMG_4172 (resized).JPG

#68 6 days ago
Quoted from CanadianGamer:

Just a quick question first off. Where is the best place to ground the oscilloscope negative probe? I've been using the negative leg of a capacitor that seemed like the only convenient place to hook on. Does it have to be somewhere on the sound board?

Preferably it's better to connect the oscilloscope ground to a ground point on the sound board. Probably the most convenient spots are either the lower leg of resistor R9 (between the R6 and R13 pots bottom right of the board), or the leg coming out of the top of capacitor C27 lower left corner of the board.

Quoted from CanadianGamer:

3rd pic is when touching the to probes together, the line goes flat.

Since we're measuring voltages that are going negative, it's best to set the oscilloscope so the reference for zero volts is along the center in the grid. Go to the "Yn" function and adjust the "Y Offset" so when the probes are shorted to each other, the blue signal flat lines in the middle of the grid. This is generally the way you look at analog signals such as audio. With experience you'll get the hang of where to reference zero volts on the grid depending on the voltages you're measuring.

If you're ever analysing digital logic signals, then you can move the blue line near the bottom of the grid since digital signals are positive. I usually put it on the first step so I can see any minor negative swings.

BTW, go to "Tr" on the menu and select "Hide-Tri" to remove the dotted green line. We're not using the Trigger feature.

Quoted from CanadianGamer:

When calibrating according to the manual (I figured it out that I should use the built in wave generator to generate a 20khz signal) I got this pic of a 20khz signal from wave out. It looks like a square wave?... Is that good?

Yes, this unit can only output a square wave and looks like it is logic level range (between 0V and 5V).

Quoted from CanadianGamer:

First pic set to 5v, pin 6 of U22 with background music playing. Blue line is kind of dotted and moving along the bottom.

Once you've got the blue oscilloscope line centered, redo this measurement still at 5V per division.

#69 6 days ago

I’d like to take this opportunity to thank both of you guys for such great posts in this thread... it is very educational.

#70 6 days ago
Quoted from uncivil_engineer:

I’d like to take this opportunity to thank both of you guys for such great posts in this thread... it is very educational.

Thank-you sir! I hope that some of my stupid questions will be things that other people are wondering about as well.

Big, huge thanks to Quench for his patience and guidance!

#71 5 days ago

First pic is when not connected.

2nd pic is connected to pin 6 of U22, Game playing background music, 5v.
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#72 5 days ago
Quoted from CanadianGamer:

2nd pic is connected to pin 6 of U22, Game playing background music, 5v.

The output is almost distorted at full negative voltage. With the oscilloscope hooked up to pin 6 of U22 in game background music mode, adjust the amplitude at pot R13 until the blue line rises and it hopefully produces some sort of waveform.

Then set the oscilloscope to 2 volts per division. In game mode, confirm that you get activity on pins 5 through to 12 on the U20 DAC. You should see activity between zero and 5 volts.

We haven't even looked at the speech side of things yet. In Game Over (attract) mode do you see any activity on the oscilloscope at pin 15 of the U14 speech chip when you press the test button on the sound board? Speech is produced every 3rd press of the button (wait a second between presses). If you're looking at the schematics, that pin should show activity between zero and say 11 volts because it's driven by transistor Q2 so set the oscilloscope to 5 volts per division.
How about the output of the speech chip (pin 20 of U14), any activity there?
What about output pin 4 of the U19 DAC used for speech?
And the output pin 6 of the U21 op-amp?

In the mean time have a quick look on ebay for sources of the DAC chips. Look for MC1408 and DAC0808. We might get to the point that they're next in line for replacement so find out what options you have.

#73 4 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

The output is almost distorted at full negative voltage. With the oscilloscope hooked up to pin 6 of U22 in game background music mode, adjust the amplitude at pot R13 until the blue line rises and it hopefully produces some sort of waveform.

I tried adjusting it both ways but the blue line stayed the same, no wave. The sound still gets a bit louder as I adjust it outwards, to a point, then it starts to sound like it will fry if I go any further.

Quoted from Quench:

Then set the oscilloscope to 2 volts per division. In game mode, confirm that you get activity on pins 5 through to 12 on the U20 DAC. You should see activity between zero and 5 volts.

The picture below shows what pins 5-12 on U20 looked like, pretty much the same on all of them.

Quoted from Quench:

In Game Over (attract) mode do you see any activity on the oscilloscope at pin 15 of the U14 speech chip when you press the test button on the sound board?

scope set to 5v, and there was no change when pressing the test button in attract mode the 3rd time or any time.

Quoted from Quench:

How about the output of the speech chip (pin 20 of U14), any activity there?

No activity there. tried pressing the test button 3 times, waiting between presses.

Quoted from Quench:

What about output pin 4 of the U19 DAC used for speech?

No, nothing.

Quoted from Quench:

And the output pin 6 of the U21 op-amp?

No change when pressing the test button 3 times.

I've found a place to order the DAC's, but I'm going to hold off until I hear back from you. Thanks.
IMG_E4206 (resized).JPG

pins 5 to 12 on the U20 DAC

#74 4 days ago
Quoted from CanadianGamer:

I tried adjusting it both ways but the blue line stayed the same, no wave.

When adjusting pot R13 did the blue line at least move upwards while probing pin 6 of U22 ? I guess you're not seeing a wave because it's too small in amplitude to see when we've got the oscilloscope at 5 volts per division. I think you were getting waves on this pin when your oscilloscope was set low at 10 millivolts per division on the previous page.

Quoted from CanadianGamer:

The picture below shows what pins 5-12 on U20 looked like, pretty much the same on all of them.

Well on the surface it indicates that DAC is not losing amplitude resolution due to a lack of digital info. The digital info is all active.

Quoted from CanadianGamer:

4th photo pin 14 of U20 (line jumps to top of screen)

You mentioned this in your post directly after I posted my graphs. On my graph, pin 14 of U20 is around zero volts, yet your wave has it sitting at 12 volts.
I'm looking at the DAC datasheet and it talks about pin 14 having 2ma of current. The schematics show pin 14 connected to +12volts via resistor R11 which is 5.6k ohms in value.
Using Ohms law, (voltage = current * resistance) 2ma times 5.6k ohms (0.002 * 5600) = 12 volts. With one side of the resistor being connected to 12 volts, the ohms law calculation says the other side of the resistor which is connected to pin 14 of U20 should be zero volts (which is what I got). Yet you are getting 12 volts there indicating there is no current flowing through R11 from U20. Hmm... is this evidence U20 is faulty? I wish I had access to my game for further checks.

With your oscilloscope on 5 volts per division, can you redo a waveform of pin 14 of U20 plus also pin 15 of U20. Also waveforms of the same pins (14 and 15) of the DAC used in the speech path at U19. These two pins are positive and negative voltage references for the DAC.

Quoted from CanadianGamer:

I've found a place to order the DAC's, but I'm going to hold off until I hear back from you. Thanks.

Are they cheap?

How are you going here, are you getting frustrated this isn't resolved yet?

#75 4 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

Are they cheap?

How are you going here, are you getting frustrated this isn't resolved yet?

I'm doing great thanks, you've been very helpful and I really appreciate it. It will get resolved one day, somehow, and I'd really like to keep the original sound board going... it seems like whatever it is it must be a minor issue, just trying to track it down is the hard part! The DACs are only about $2.50 each, but shipping is $20 of course lol.

Quoted from Quench:

When adjusting pot R13 did the blue line at least move upwards while probing pin 6 of U22 ?

No, I adjusted R13 up and down with the scope connected and the line did not move.

With game playing and background music on,

pic 1 is the scope set to middle, 5v, and nothing connected.
pic 2: pin 14 of U20
pic 3: pin 15 of U20
pic 4: pin 14 of U19
pic 5: pin 15 of U19

Pin 15 of U20 seemed to move up a volt or so, whereas pin 15 of U19 didn't move at all.
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#76 3 days ago
Quoted from CanadianGamer:

pic 2: pin 14 of U20
pic 3: pin 15 of U20
pic 4: pin 14 of U19
pic 5: pin 15 of U19

Is anyone here watching that has a Black Hole who can take some DC voltage measurements with their multi-meter of these ^^^ four pins on their sound board?

Both your pin 14 DAC measurements are at 12 volts DC which disagrees with my U20 pin 14 DAC measurement and what's stated in the DAC datasheet. Is it possible there's been some high voltage spike (possibly the 30 volt rail??) on the 12 volt rail to the sound board that's killed the DACs?
The speech chip at U14 also has the 12 volt rail connected to it though it's dropped to 9 volts via a 3 volt zener diode marked as CR2 on the schematics. Datasheet for the speech chip says maximum supply voltage is 20 volts. These speech chips are virtually unobtainable so the worry is if there was a 12 volt power surge, is it also damaged.

The LM741 op-amps at U21 and U22 are also connected to the +/- 12 volt rails. Your original UA741C op-amps were rated to +/- 18 volts DC max. Since you've changed the op-amps and it's made no difference, it's possible the originals were ok.
Having said that on my first two waveforms, the difference in voltage peak to peak between the input and output of U22 shows a very modest gain of about 1.2
You posted a picture above of U22 input pin 2 having about 1 volt DC, meanwhile your pin 6 output was off the scale at negative 12 volts. That is substantial gain and with the R13 pot turned all the way in one direction, the gain should have dropped to about 1.

I wonder if your R13 pot is bad. With the machine off, set your multi-meter to resistance mode. What resistance do you measure across pins 2 and 6 of U22? This is where the R13 pot is connected across. The schematic says it's 10k ohms so you should read this or less depending where the pot swipe is adjusted to. Do the same across pins 2 and 6 of the op-amp at U21. Again it should be 10k ohms or less because of pot R6.

Quoted from CanadianGamer:

The DACs are only about $2.50 each, but shipping is $20 of course lol.

The DAC0808 version is still available at Mouser, Digikey and Jameco. Is shipping any cheaper from these suppliers for you? There's always getting them through China via Ebay/AliExpress for peanuts so long as you're prepared to wait a month or so for delivery.

#77 3 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

Is it possible there's been some high voltage spike (possibly the 30 volt rail??)

That is entirely possible, the game was in really bad shape when I got it. I replaced the small transformer, all the bridge rectifiers, put in a fuse for the small transformer, new caps, new mpu/power supply/driver board combo... and on and on. The wiring was a mess but I straightened it all out and it looks good. It also plays great now, no issues at all with game play. I just finished cleaning it all up with new rubbers, worked out all the solenoids and switch issues etc, and it looks amazingly better than it did. It needs new plastics for sure, but these are livable and don't hinder gameplay. I also made a new wireform for the roll under on the lower playfield to advance the multiplier. It was missing and that just wouldn't do! I used a small welding rod of some sort (can't remember exactly what size but need to get more from the welding suppliers). I got a piece of it a while back and have made a few since then, it works great! They didn't even charge me for it because it's nothing to them lol. I had no idea what the original wireform looked like, but I figured out how it had to be. Pictures attached as well.

Things left to do on it are #1 sound of course.
2. back glass spinner motor. I've read all the threads on it and will probably get to it one day... it's not really #2 on the list lol.
3. Auxiliary lamp driver board needs a new chip, one visibly fried but can get it from Vancouver cheap. Will add it to DAC order.
4. Small credit display also has a visibly fried chip and doesn't work. I tried putting a spare display in that I had laying around, and it worked but after a while it blows the fuse for all the displays on the new mpu. Those fuses are hard to find and I ended up getting a couple from Pascal Janin directly from France. Oddly enough, I get shipments from him in just a few days. Anyhow, I'm fairly certain that the credit display is to blame for blowing the fuse, even though it seems to work fine for a while. I haven't blown a fuse yet when I keep it unplugged.

I'll post some pics of the clean up work, and how it looks now, as well as a few overall pics of the sound board. There isn't much to see as on the surface it all looks pristine, but maybe something will catch your eye. I put new capacitors on, that's about it.

Quoted from Quench:

The LM741 op-amps at U21 and U22 are also connected to the +/- 12 volt rails. Your original UA741C op-amps were rated to +/- 18 volts DC max. Since you've changed the op-amps and it's made no difference, it's possible the originals were ok.

I actually only changed U22, not U21 although I do have a new LM741 for U21. I didn't want to change it if I didn't have to, just more chance of harming the board. If you think I should change it just let me know and I'll swap it in.

Quoted from Quench:

I wonder if your R13 pot is bad. With the machine off, set your multi-meter to resistance mode. What resistance do you measure across pins 2 and 6 of U22? This is where the R13 pot is connected across. The schematic says it's 10k ohms so you should read this or less depending where the pot swipe is adjusted to. Do the same across pins 2 and 6 of the op-amp at U21

It seems to be working. I get 1.67k ohms at pins 2+6 U22, and 3.27k ohms on U21. I have R13 backed out to get the sound louder, which is why it's lower ohms of course. I tried adjusting R13 in and the resistance went up accordingly.

Quoted from Quench:

The DAC0808 version is still available at Mouser, Digikey and Jameco. Is shipping any cheaper from these suppliers for you?

No, it would be the same or more actually. I don't mind paying $20 shipping for a $2 part really, but only if there is some chance it will help. I guess I will order them anyhow so we can at least cross them off the list. You said if they're damaged then U14 is damaged as well. Would that just mean there would be no speech? Or would all sound be affected?
IMG_4183 (resized).JPG
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#78 2 days ago

and DACs are ordered. Should see them by Wednesday next week.

#79 2 days ago
Quoted from CanadianGamer:

I also made a new wireform for the roll under on the lower playfield to advance the multiplier.

Nice work. My guess is that the section where the spring sits would have had a bend going up at the inner side to prevent the spring from sliding down into the centre of the wireform (if that makes sense).

Quoted from CanadianGamer:

I actually only changed U22, not U21 although I do have a new LM741 for U21. I didn't want to change it if I didn't have to, just more chance of harming the board. If you think I should change it just let me know and I'll swap it in.

Nah, leave the original U21 in for now.

Quoted from CanadianGamer:

I don't mind paying $20 shipping for a $2 part really, but only if there is some chance it will help. I guess I will order them anyhow so we can at least cross them off the list. You said if they're damaged then U14 is damaged as well. Would that just mean there would be no speech? Or would all sound be affected?

If there was a voltage surge on the +12V rail and damaged the DACs, it doesn't necessarily mean that U14 died too. The max rated supply voltage of U14 is over double what it's powered at in the game. I was just mentioning that it was a possibility and if so you could have a hard time finding a replacement. U14 is a speech chip, it doesn't affect other sounds.

Not sure what all the mods are on the back of the sound board but they kind of look like they were done at the factory.

#80 2 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

Not sure what all the mods are on the back of the sound board but they kind of look like they were done at the factory.

Yeah, I’m 99% sure it’s factory, I’ve seen others like it and read that they did this on earlier models.

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