Any suggestions for what to change to make Q15 fire the tube kicker instead?

It may have been a grounding issue. I can’t get the coil to engage at all anymore, the 3rd coil. With the second coil that fried I changed the playfield transistor and only did the minimum change for the wiring harness that connects the cpu to the driver board. After that I did all the ground mods in the back box, repinned all the bifurcated connectors between the cpu to driver board, and changed f17 to a 2.5 amp sb. On the second, it fired correctly one time and then the second time it fired it locked on.

In solenoid test, is outhole coil activating for test coil assignment #9? Outhole works correctly during game play?
If you ground Q15 (tube kicker) and it fires the outhole, are you sure you didn't make a wire mix up somewhere like on the A3J3 connector regarding Q14 (outhole) and Q15 (tube kicker)? And sure you were grounding Q15, not 14?

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Can someone point where to look. Everything had been working 100%. Started a game and it made start noise twice. I assumed I hit two credits but I hadn’t. There was no longer any background sound and most of of switches are now playing the wrong sounds. For example the spinner says fail fail, but it score correctly. I have a niwumpf mpu.. strange out of the blue..or black I guess

Mostly likely the pins are shot on the wire harness that connects to the bottom of the MPU board. I would start there.

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Thanks I will check..The last owner had repinned all the connectors ( 2.5 years ago) but I will look carefully at them

I have a Ni-wumpf driver board, which I tested what is labeled Q15 and it is triggering the coil show below and not the tube kicker. When the 1st tube kicker coil fried this coil also stuck on but still seems to be working good so I didn't replace it.

I didn't say it prior, but you can likely tell... This is the first pinball I've really worked on.

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Okay so the coil shown in your pic is the upper playfield trough 'ball release' or 'cardholder ball gate', not the outhole. It is also adjacent to the tube kicker pin on A3J3 (pins 22 & 23) so could possibly still be a wire mix-up there or elsewhere.

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I think I found the issue, which I didn't change any wiring or connectors to A3J3 or any wiring after it so is a mistory still... I put another MJ2933 in and watched the kicker closely as test 16 went through the flow. The coil fired once and then not again. I pulled the DMM out and seems like this transistor blew. I put one of the old 2n3791 that I had replaced at one of the other under playfield transistor locations with a MJ2933 that was still working fine in for the tube kicker coil and it is working like a champ.

I still have some more work to do, but at least I can finally play a full game! I can't wait to have my kids finally play it, like I did when I was there age, and have my father play it again as it's been along time since this pin has worked. Thank you for all the help frenchmarky and BrewNinja!

I think I found the issue, which I didn't change any wiring or connectors to A3J3 or any wiring after it so is a mystery still... I put another MJ2933 in and watched the kicker closely as test 16 went through the flow. The coil fired once and then not again. I pulled the DMM out and seems like this transistor blew. I put one of the old 2n3791 that I had replaced at one of the other under playfield transistor locations with a MJ2933 that was still working fine in for the tube kicker coil and it is working like a champ.

I still have some more work to do, but at least I can finally play a full game! I can't wait to have my kids finally play it, like I did when I was there age, and have my father play it again as it's been along time since this pin has worked. Thank you for all the help frenchmarky and BrewNinja!

>I put one of the old 2n3791 that I had replaced at one of the other under playfield transistor locations with a MJ2933 that was still working fine in for the tube kicker coil and it is working like a champ>

Still weird about the upper ball release firing in the testing. Well at least it works now. Seen folks in here having a lot of trouble with those pf-mounted driver transistors blowing even right after they replaced them.

Yeah, those under playfield ones suck. After I blew 2 right after replacing them, I bought a dozen.

You can upgrade to the 2N5879 transistors which should help a little, just make absolutely sure the 4.7K ohm resistor is there on the 24V side (its usually about 6 inches away).

Good luck

Fortunately I've never had any of those transistors go bad and I've had this game since the 1990s. And I didn't even add the 4.7K pullup resistors to two of the three on the lower playfield until last week. But I did the basic board grounding mods soon after I got the game so none of the transistors/coils has ever gotten locked on and toasted.
Only time I notice a coil may lock up on me is in the solenoid test or the burn-in test. Any coil that was firing at the moment I exit the test might stay locked on and I have to shut the game off and on again. But I'm thinking this is an oversight in the diagnostic code. Don't know for certain.

Slowly getting this Black Hole project back to life. I've shopped and cleaned and reassembled the upper and lower pf; the lower was FILTHY with mildew and nicotine - we ruined about 5 rags cleaning it up - but now has a nice reflective OEM finish shine! Neither pf will be perfect - the upper has some wear and "better than bare wood" touchups in dicreet areas - but should be a nice, clean player.

Anyway, last night I put both pfs back in the cabinet to test some GI repairs & mods. ALL of the remote transistor boards are removed (on bench, waiting on components to rebuild them) AND the MPU is disconnected. I know the lower pf does not light without the driver board running the attract sequence, but I needed to test the 313-to-47 bulb conversion, which requires the lower pf to (manually) trigger its relay in.

The upper pf lit up just fine, yay! And the 313-to-47 conversion worked too! HOWEVER... after a few moments I became aware of a slight buzzing sound. VERY faint, but focusing on it, I sure enough found the lower pf tube kicker coil was "on" ever so faintly, and by touching it I could feel the current buzzing through, with light resistance in the mech. Turned the game off and it went away. Turned it on and this did not happen again.

My question is: HOW could that coil have had any current with the MPU / Driver disconnected AND the remote transistor boards removed?!

It seems this coil has been troublesome in the past: the tube is scorched in that location and the actual coil presently installed (as found) is a Williams one...

The coils will all have positive voltage from the bridge rectifier going to one lug. The transistors ground the circuit when activated thus firing the coil. The ball lift kicker piggy-backs off a lamp drive transistor and is amplified by the under playfield transistor. The transistor under the playfield may be lacking a pull up resistor and/or partially activating the coil since it is not connected to the lamp drive transistor. Basically it ends up in some psudo-state. At least that's my guess.

Also I'll continue to pitch to folks that I highly recommend getting the bracket from Cliffy and using a flipper coil for the lift kicker. Save yourself some future heartache!

https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Black_Hole#Black_Hole_Ball_Lift_Kicker_Mod

These boards that you are referring to are for the pop bumpers, not for the up kicker. The single transistor mounted to an L bracket is for the up kicker.

I thought so, but thought it worth pointing out. In any case wouldn't the "non remote board" coils still be controlled by the MPU/Driver - an assumed NOT to be fed in this case since the MPU/driver was also disconnected?

So I had also considered this, trying to solidify my understanding that "coils are actually always fed power at all times, and just driven to ground to complete the circuit". But I guess my confusion would be why this *one* coil was actively "live" moreso than the others? And if that's just a fluke/steady-state/wear indicator then why it wasn't it live the next time I turned the game on.

There aren't any obvious wiring shorts or hacks. I had the game test-flipping and such before I tore it down; granted, the tube kicker was mechanically bound and blowing fuses so "of course it wasn't working and seemed obvious to fix it mechanically". I'm now wondering if there was more than a mechanical fault in play.

Like they said, it may not have a pull up on the under playfield transistor. That means, without the driver attached, the input is floating, and it could go whatever way it wants

Some games did not come with pull-up resistors on the remote under play field transistors. By not having this the base terminal voltage of the transistor can drain down and start passing current to the coil causing it to melt. Once the factory realized there mistake they add this resistor to bring the base terminal voltage to 24 volts thus forcing the transistor off. I would check to see if you have pull-up resistors on all of the remote transistors and add them if you don't.

Additionally on some of the games when they did add the pull-up resistor, it might be the wrong value.
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Remote_Mounted_Transistor_Update

Oddly enough my game DOES have the factory-installed pull-up resistor board on the lower pf. It almost looks like a retrofit, as the added wires have different-colored cable ties in the harness. But it's a clean, factory-looking install. Maybe some of those resistors are suspect then. I appreciate the pointers for places to look!

There is a modification that uses a Pop Bumper Driver Board (PBDB) to control and protect the up kicker solenoid coil (so it will not stay locked up and eventually burn up). It is found in the Pin Lizard Black Hole / Haunted House Owner’s Club literature. Performed it on my Black Hole and it works great!

Can you post a link to that post? I'll have to remember to try looking later.

So my game lives, sorta! Sound board is dead atm. And two pop bumper boards lock the Q relay on (I put the originals in since apparently when Mouser says "your order may be delayed a day or two" what they really mean is "more than a week and counting" ) . But I was able to unplug those pop bumper boards and play a couple test games... Everything else works and this game seems like it'll be a lot of fun once dialed in.

Do have a question tho: can the pop bumper cool stops get magnetized? I actually had to demag two of the flipper stops - first time I've ever experienced that issue. But two of my (working) pop bumpers seem to have a similar issue. They stay down for a good long time (2 or 3 seconds) before releasing. Thing is, it doesn't seem like the coil is locked on... But if the ball repeatedly hits, the fuses blow. Not sure what's going on. The switch gaps look good...

The pop bumper driver boards might need to be rebuilt or the mods applied. Pop coil stops or plungers can get magnetized too.

Read this many years ago when I first got my Black Hole. Lots of good stuff in there for sure.

Hey guys, does anyone know if the logo-etched wide body glass available right now at pinball life will fit BH?

Could try switching pop boards with each other to see if the fuse blowing moves somewhere else, then that would indicate it's the board. Also check the ohms on the pop coils to be sure none have an internal short. Might want to replace the diodes on any pop coils that are causing fuse blows too since they are only a few cents, they can look okay but still be bad.

The pops magnetized the stops as well as the entire pop bumper frame on my BH. I fixed it with 3 or 4 layers of thick adhesive copper tape (used for fixing circuit board traces etc.) on the end of the coil stops and trimming around them, checked one months later and the copper was holding up to the pounding just fine. Or you can form a U-shaped piece of thicker copper sheet metal around the stop.

Gottlieb widebodies are different size than williams: https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=General#Glass_Sizes

I need to get a sheet made. Most places locally can do it for you pretty cheap. Order the tempered glass furnished only, no polish (you can get a polished edge, but its a lot more usually).

Found this last night... when it was first mentioned I thought it was a post elsewhere on Pinside, oops.

https://arcarc.xmission.com/Pinball/PDF%20Pinball%20Misc/Black-Hole%20and%20Haunted-House%20Repair%20Guide.pdf

It's a really interesting guide and a fun insight to how things were "back in the day". Yet I somehow hear the "voices" of both Vid and Clay in there, ha. Never have seen or heard of that PBDB-upkicker mod before; now I wish I had a spare to use for that.

Speaking of, I'm pretty certain the PBDB's in my game are suspect as 4 are bone-stock uncorrected original while two are modified but not completely. I'd already planned to rebuild them but am still waiting on the parts. Not going to chase the electrical aspects further, until I get the rebuilds done.

BUT there is one thing I noticed about these pops, mechanically. Maybe this is a GTB thing, but it seems like the pop-bumper skirt stake rests a bit "deep" in the switch spoon. In other words, it seems like there's a lot of resistance there compared to all the other games I've worked on - a feather touch gets those going but on this game it seems to need a bit more "oomph" to press the switch - and the resistance to reset is similar (might hold the switch in). The switch stacks are all tight and seem original, and the spoon leaves are all level and straight (not bent), so I'm not inclined to think there's much adjustment here - yet it seems "wrong" to me. Is this just a GTB quirk?

If the spoon is pressing too hard on the stake, why not just adjust the blade a little for lighter pressure? It's going to look the same and just as straight afterwards, it just won't be putting excess pressure on the stake. Somebody could have overadjusted them in the past too.

It just seemed odd to me that they are ALL that way, apparently from the factory... so I wasn't sure if "extra pressure" was the intent and/or I was perceiving a problem where there isn't any. But yeah, I think for my own preference if nothing else, I'll put a slight dogleg kind in each spoon blade to lower it while maintaining its level.

It's not an issue of lowering it really, just tweaking it so it isn't putting excess pressure on the stem of the skirt, adjusted closest to the switch stack, just like any other switch blade. Adjust as light as possible where the stem touches and bottoms out in the center of the spoon. Also adjusting the switch mount in all directions in respect to the stem if it needs it (by loosening the two screws that attach the switch mount to the playfield) is important so the spoon and stem are centered to begin with and you get even switch closure from the ball at any point around the skirt.

What are other BH owners doing to the re entry gate so that it doesn’t buzz? My machine buzzes when the gate is active in game play. I have tried adjusting the wire gate, I have tried adjusting the coil and lever mech under the playfield. It will work great for a bit. Then I put the glass and lock bar back in and it starts buzzing again...doh! It’s starting to become my nemesis. Surely someone else has suffered with this situation and found a fix? Any suggestions appreciated!

Turn up the volume in the game!

Sand the coil head and where it hits the plate

This made me actually lol!

Adjust so the actuated switch blade puts very little pressure on the relay armature at rest, and adjust the outer switch blade that lights the insert lamp with a decent gap. You want the least amount of spring load on the armature that you can get away with. Or could try a little bit weaker spring on the relay.

Thanks, Great ideas guys! I’ll give it another try tomorrow.

Rebuilding the pbdb's seems to have addressed the issues I saw; two of them had dead transistors I replaced with tip102's. And it's alive! Managed to figure out the sound issue too, so I finally got the full Black Hole experience for the first time last night. What an evil, but fun, but deliciously fast and devious game. The sounds are so weird too! Just a couple things to dial in but it all seems to be working (for now anyway). I appreciate everyone's help...!

I finally did the 'disable the lower gate clicking in attract mode' mod today, pretty easy plus I had plenty of scrapped Gtb EM relays around here to pull the required extra relay switch from. I'm not doing any spinning disc motor mods though since I'd already put in a new motor and I love it running in attract mode, and compared to the 'on' time the game had in the arcades, home use 'on' time is practically nothing. It's a pure player-drawing attract feature and would just look wrong to me only working when a game is in progress and not running in attract.

I thought about disabling the gate but I'm paranoid and if I don't hear it clicking in attract, I assume the game has locked up.

The other relay that turns the lower playfield GI on and off in attract still clicks though, not as loud as the gate but you can still hear it. If you took the rubber bushings off the relay and mounted it directly to the pf it would be a little louder still. And/or can set the attract speech for every 10 seconds but it kinda gets on my nerves especially with the volume on high so I have it set to every 4 minutes.

Can one remove the pins on the single edge connectors? They look like they are idc and built into the connectors..thought there was a way to reuse the edge connector

The pins are removable, just a little tricky sometimes. I used a small screwdriver or pick to press down the locking tab on the pin while trying to push it out of the housing. I think i used needle-nose pliers or something to pull the pins the rest of the way out.

Yep. When replacing I'll just mash the locking tab down and crush the whole tab a bit, then grab the other end with pliers and yank it out. Then install regular .156" molex pins. (not trifurcon! ask me why I know!)

Once you detach the wire are you pushing it out the wire side end? Sorry they just look like they don’t come out easy either way. But I have only looked, not attempted

Thanks

I usually pull the wire out of the old pin first, since there are some one-way plastic tabs designed to hold the wire in. Then you pull the pin out towards where the wire was, yeah

OK so I finally confirmed a suspicion last night: my BH seems to be playing fine (knock on wood) since the resurrection but I apparently have a display issue. Never had a Sys80 before so it wasn't immediately obvious.

Anyway, the issue is the Player 3 and 4 displays always show "000 000" on them and this never changes. I thought maybe that was normal since they don't turn on until the game boots (5 sec delay). But when we finally started a 4-player game, they never changed - they only showed "000 000" for the duration of the game. No other segments ever attempt to illuminate, no other segments ever get brighter or dimmer. The Credit/match, lower pf, and P1 and P2 displays work fine.

During the display test, P3 and P4 do not change either: still "000 000" while all the other displays walk the numbers. BUT - and this is weird - the "H" segment (or "number 1") does come on at that point. Yet the mid-horizontal segment (as used in 2,3,4,5,6,8,9) never lights.

Another weird thing during the display test, is the characters walk across the P2 display before P1. But in gameplay, the proper displays are the ones that function. Maybe this is normal but it seems "backwards".

I swapped display panels around and this behavior did not change, so I don't think it's defective displays or connectors.

Now, given this weird behavior I'm not sure if this indicates a "digit" or "segment" problem. Most of the troubleshooting guides concern issues with missing segments, which some of the symptoms might be interpreted as such. Only a few mention issues with locked segments - which seems like most of my issue. So is this a combo? I'm suspicious of the 7448 at Z21 as this was socketed previously, but I don't have a swap part handy yet. I thought I did but my tester says they are all bad, just like it does the one on the board Yet my possibly conflated symptoms don't have me 100% confident that is the sole (or even "an") issue in the first place.

That is normal, display test digit will begin running across pl 2 and pl 4 first. Have you tried reseating the two connectors on the right side of the MPU (control) board? That's where the display data comes from for the displays. As with the displays, only do this with the game powered off. Though if that was it I'd think you'd get something more than all zeroes.

Hey guys, I am really really interested in buying a BH. Was 11 in '81 and remember this fondly from the arcade. Am I insane? The more I read about this pin the more scared I get. I'm very handy but not an electronics expert. (repaired an EM Gulfstream myself) I also remember this pin being 'out of order' at my local arcade half the time