(Topic ID: 77057)

Black Hole Club... Members Only!


By mof

6 years ago



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  • Latest reply 3 days ago by Lemank
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There are 1899 posts in this topic. You are on page 38 of 38.
#1851 3 months ago

OK, so interestingly enough, I plugged the original board back in but left the daughterboard unplugged and everything worked fine. WTH does that thing even do anyway? Is it OK to leave it unplugged and play as-is?

#1852 3 months ago
Quoted from iBuyHouses:

OK, so interestingly enough, I plugged the original board back in but left the daughterboard unplugged and everything worked fine. WTH does that thing even do anyway? Is it OK to leave it unplugged and play as-is?

Its only purpose is to reset the game if it detects it 'locks up'. I unplug them on all my games, since I'll notice myself if that happens

#1853 3 months ago

So I'm pretty sure that they other game needs the connectors rebuilt. What parts/suppliers do you guys recommend?

#1854 3 months ago
Quoted from iBuyHouses:

So I'm pretty sure that they other game needs the connectors rebuilt. What parts/suppliers do you guys recommend?

https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Replacing_.28Repinning.29_System_80_Connectors
I don't recall where I got mine specifically. I probably got mine from Digikey...before they went Obsolete.Check section 5.3.1... there's a link to GPE which might still work.

Nope: They are becoming unobtainium. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/help-molex-08-03-0304-crimp-contact-0156#post-4288894 has some saga The link to equipment99 seems to still have stock; but note they were blocked from Pinside for some reason. Proably because they spammed the forum.

#1855 3 months ago
Quoted from iBuyHouses:

So I'm pretty sure that they other game needs the connectors rebuilt. What parts/suppliers do you guys recommend?

What leads you to this conclusion? Again, we need a little more information before anybody can help. Repinning all the connections isn't a bad idea ever though if you trust yourself to do it right. If you haven't already, I would highly recommend picking up Clay's This Old Pinball videos about System 80 games. Really helpful info that really helped me understand the boards in these games. Worth every penny. (Be warned though, the off-camera guy makes tons of racist/sexist comments that may have flown in 2001 but definitely didn't age well).

I've bought pins from equipment 99 via eBay and they've all been fine. Get em while you can. I've got a few hundred in some baggies stowed away that you can all pry from my cold dead hands when they finally disappear.

#1856 3 months ago
Quoted from iBuyHouses:

So I'm pretty sure that they other game needs the connectors rebuilt. What parts/suppliers do you guys recommend?

I would try cleaning all the board connections first and doing ground mods. Owned several System 80 pins including a Black Hole and have never had to replace a connector yet. I have cleaned and retinned a few board fingers that have been worn down to the copper though.

Maybe dumb luck but not where I'd start.

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#1857 3 months ago

So, yes, I apparently bought the TOP videos years ago (on VHS) and I have started to watch them. After about 20 minutes, I'm ready to strangle the guy behind the camera because he is annoying as shit. I don't know if I will be able to get through all 4 hours, but I'll try.

As far as what the game was doing or not doing - It would seem to power on and coin up OK, but when you hit the credit button, it wanted to start a game, but nothing worked. Ball didn't kick out, no solenoids would activate, no switches would register, flippers didn't work.

I had a guy who is slightly more experienced than me look at it (which isn't saying much) and he said that there was a lot of corrosion on the connectors. Definitely on the power board, but also the A1-J6 (pictured) the wires are corroded, the connectors are corroded, at least 2 of the connectors are crushed, and one wire has pulled out.

The connections on the board look pretty good. The A1-J6 and that connector on the power supply board appear to be the worst.

I know that I still have a ton to learn. I can't solder to save my life, so I completely read through terryB's thread about soldering and plan to try practicing that before going much further. I can fix just about anything mechanical - I can fix just about anything around the house, but I struggle with the intricacies of these games.

Good news is that I got the good machine running again. Thanks for your help.

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#1858 3 months ago
Quoted from iBuyHouses:

I had a guy who is slightly more experienced than me look at it (which isn't saying much) and he said that there was a lot of corrosion on the connectors. Definitely on the power board, but also the A1-J6 (pictured) the wires are corroded, the connectors are corroded, at least 2 of the connectors are crushed, and one wire has pulled out.

The green goo stuff is green dye I think that leaches out the wiring cover? Not corrosion. Can't recall the details but covered on the board a few times I think.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/replacing-molex-connector-in-williams-system-6#post-1194949

Several of those pins do look to be mechanically distressed. At a minimum I'd take them out the connector, clean and gently bend back into shape and reinsert to test.

A few do look like they need to be replaced.

#1859 3 months ago

Green goo isn't conductive, iirc, so it needs to be cleaned off for proper operation. Mildly toxic, don't get it in your eyes/etc. I removed the pins from the housings and then cleaned with alcohol. Cut wires back half an inch and recrimped

#1860 3 months ago
Quoted from Zitt:

The act of unplugging the connector on the game may have been the cause.
Those edge finger "wipers" in the original connectors are fragile.

I apologize if this is a stupid question but is it possible to spray the connectors with silicone to help prevent them from getting damaged?

#1861 3 months ago
Quoted from iBuyHouses:

I apologize if this is a stupid question but is it possible to spray the connectors with silicone to help prevent them from getting damaged?

Yes, it is a bad idea. You don’t want to spray anything on them that coats including contact cleaner. High percentage alcohol is the best and makes sure it dries before putting it back on. The idea is to get a nice shinny metal connection.

#1862 3 months ago

By the way, you do need new pins. Looks like they lost all of their tension. The funny thing about ground mods is they aren’t needed for the most part. Gottliebs ground through the wire harness. Bad pins means bad grounds and that’s why everybody does the ground mods.
Their pins aren’t 100% so they are grounding using an alternate path.

#1863 3 months ago

A little coffee. A little amaro. A little sunday reading.

Trying to do some schematic reading to help me clue myself into what could possibly be causing those wild MPU problems on my original board. Seems like bad riot chip, fingers crossed.

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#1864 3 months ago

Use a pink eraser on the edge fingers. Replace worn non springy edge fingers. Really the only option.

2 weeks later
#1865 86 days ago

Has anyone chromed or powder coated their side rails for a Black Hole? I'm in the process of restoring my machine and the side rails are soaking in Evaporust right now but I'm not sure if one of them will clean up well or not. I was considering black gloss powder coat or a chrome plating job if it won't come clean with evaporust and polishing.

#1866 86 days ago
Quoted from Pinball_Gizzard:

I was considering black gloss powder coat or a chrome plating job if it won't come clean with evaporust and polishing.

My experience is if it isn't good enough for display without powder; it won't look good with powder. Chrome is even worse.
Scratches and dents will show up almost as good. The only difference is if you use a textured powder like wrinkle.

If you have pitting from rust; it'll likely show up in the black gloss.
That said; there's no harm in trying - esp if you're DIYing the powder (hard to do with rails).

2 weeks later
#1867 72 days ago

I saw a YouTube video someone posted many years back now that claimed that they rigged their disc motor to the MPU Board to control the speed of the motor. Slowest in attract mode, then faster during normal play, then faster when you're in the lower level, then fastest when the three ball multi ball was running. VERY cool effect that I'd be interested in achieving. Anybody have some intel on where there might be some guides on completing this mod, or know how to go about doing it?

#1868 71 days ago

I bought a new motor for the spinning display, but it's a different size and shape and will require a different bracket or retrofit. Any suggestions on a bracket that might work? I don't have the ability or tools to drill holes in metal. Any ideas are appreciated!

#1869 71 days ago
Quoted from Pinkitten:

I bought a new motor for the spinning display, but it's a different size and shape and will require a different bracket or retrofit. Any suggestions on a bracket that might work? I don't have the ability or tools to drill holes in metal. Any ideas are appreciated!

I just ordered some as well, but unfortunately I believe you need to drill and tap new holes or else it won't fit properly in-between the lights and the glass. You must know SOMEBODY who has a drill press and some drill bits.

I've always found that people love helping out on pinball projects, so long as you don't overstay your welcome.

On that front, does anybody know off the top of their heads the size of the flat-flat head screw that holds the disc onto the hub? I can't seem to find any indication of that in the manual.

#1870 71 days ago

What motor did you buy?

#1871 70 days ago
Quoted from zacaj:

What motor did you buy?

This one, plus a small bracket that fits this motor. But I would need to drill new holes in the original metal plate that mounts the motor to the backbox. Then I have to mount the spinning wheel onto the rotating motor.

I asked someone with a more powerful drill to help, I’ll post pics if we have success.

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#1872 70 days ago

Isn't that the one on pinwiki? I followed their directions and was able to mount the motor fine with the existing mounting plate

#1873 68 days ago

This one doesn’t line up with the mounting plate on my machine. But I have a friend with a heavy duty drill and can retrofit a bracket.

#1874 67 days ago

Just fit the new motor onto my game, took the old one out, blah blah.

I was expecting the servo city motor to be a little quieter than it is. I hear a pretty noticeable whirring when the motor is on. Any of you experience the same thing? I mean, maybe the old motor was LOUD but in a home use setting, I can't leave this game on and go read a book or listen to a record without it annoying me.

The other thing I noticed is with the stock parts (hub adapter and hub) there isn't a whole ton of clearance between the backglass and the disc. Planning on taking a Dremel to the center part of the motor shaft to shave it down by 1/4" or so and recess the spinning disc a little more.

#1875 67 days ago
Quoted from wheyface:

Just fit the new motor onto my game, took the old one out, blah blah.
I was expecting the servo city motor to be a little quieter than it is. I hear a pretty noticeable whirring when the motor is on. Any of you experience the same thing? I mean, maybe the old motor was LOUD but in a home use setting, I can't leave this game on and go read a book or listen to a record without it annoying me.
The other thing I noticed is with the stock parts (hub adapter and hub) there isn't a whole ton of clearance between the backglass and the disc. Planning on taking a Dremel to the center part of the motor shaft to shave it down by 1/4" or so and recess the spinning disc a little more.

Mine is pretty quiet with the backbox shut. Easily fades into the background. In order to prevent scratching my backglass I ended up not putting any lights behind the disc to get it back further

#1876 66 days ago
Quoted from wheyface:

I was expecting the servo city motor to be a little quieter than it is. I hear a pretty noticeable whirring when the motor is on. Any of you experience the same thing? I mean, maybe the old motor was LOUD but in a home use setting, I can't leave this game on and go read a book or listen to a record without it annoying me.

This was my experience with the servo city motor as well.

#1877 66 days ago
Quoted from CaffeineSlug:

This was my experience with the servo city motor as well.

Did you end up finding a quieter motor? I've heard good things about this miscellaneous non-labeled ones that come from China on eBay...

#1878 65 days ago

No, but I haven't looked. This is in a friend's machine, and it needed so much work I wasn't going to spend time looking for a quieter motor. The only time the game stays on and unplayed is during parties, and then you can't hear it over the other background noise.

#1879 62 days ago

Anybody have any tips on how to brighten up the lighting in the infinity glass? I like the movement that filaments provide (an effect that I miss every time I switch something to LED) but the 44's are a little weak and inconsistent.

#1880 62 days ago
Quoted from wheyface:

Anybody have any tips on how to brighten up the lighting in the infinity glass? I like the movement that filaments provide (an effect that I miss every time I switch something to LED) but the 44's are a little weak and inconsistent.

If you know how to program a bit, I made a custom led driver board for mine, which could be modified to do pwm like an led ocd board does. Haven't bothered on mine though, content with just having the leds and a speed adjustment

#1881 61 days ago

So, guess who has two thumbs and absolutely annihilated his machine last night because these two plugs aren't keyed differently!

Be warned everybody. Best way to fry your Sound/Speech PSU and your MPU is doing this.

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#1882 61 days ago

So sorry man. That stinks. When I bought my BH and removed the head for transport, I was very worried about this. It’s easy to do. Not all of my connectors were still clearly marked after 40 years. I took a bunch of pictures of the wiring configuration before disconnecting them, which I relied on heavily later. But this can happen easily.

#1883 61 days ago
Quoted from Pinkitten:

So sorry man. That stinks. When I bought my BH and removed the head for transport, I was very worried about this. It’s easy to do. Not all of my connectors were still clearly marked after 40 years. I took a bunch of pictures of the wiring configuration before disconnecting them, which I relied on heavily later. But this can happen easily.

Thanks for the condolences. I'm trying to figure out how much damage I've caused. From what I can tell from the schematic I did a really really really bad thing.... it looks like I accidentally connected the regulated 12v contact from the sound/speech board and immediately fried the SC01.... and everything else that runs off of 12v... Tech heads please tell me I'm reading this wrong... Save me the despair.
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#1884 60 days ago

I’ll be very interested to know what the electrical experts here have to say. When I added my BH, I was very encouraged to see that virtually every board is still produced, by Rottendog or others. I replaced my power supply with new. I noted that the speech and other boards were available. Expensive, but available.

#1885 57 days ago

Question on speaker replacement. I removed both speakers from my machine and they are 4 ohm 6.5 inch speakers in the cab. I have a 6.5 inch 4 ohm 300 watt speaker that is listed as a woofer on the box left over from a prior install. Any advice on speaker choice here? Does it matter if I get another "woofer" that's the correct size and impedence? I'm not a speaker expert...

#1886 57 days ago
Quoted from Pinball_Gizzard:

Question on speaker replacement. I removed both speakers from my machine and they are 4 ohm 6.5 inch speakers in the cab. I have a 6.5 inch 4 ohm 300 watt speaker that is listed as a woofer on the box left over from a prior install. Any advice on speaker choice here? Does it matter if I get another "woofer" that's the correct size and impedence? I'm not a speaker expert...

Did the old speakers fry? What are you trying to accomplish with replacing the speakers?

Originally, these were fairly low wattage 4 ohm 6.5 watt speakers. A "woofer" really doesn't mean anything other than it's usually a speaker that is designed to produce low end sounds in combination with other speakers. With whatever you end up going for, just make sure the frequency response doesn't roll off at like 500hz or something like that. I would look for something with a ~100hz-6k frequency response.

300 watts is way overkill but definitely will do the trick. There is some risk with mismatching wattages like that, in this application I wouldn't worry yourself too much. The overall load impedance is really the only important thing you need to worry yourself with. You want the main impedance load to be 8 ohms whatever your combination is. The amplifiers on these boards are fairly wimpy and can blow pretty easily if you slam it too hard with the wrong receiving impedance. Speakers are cheap to replace compared to those amplifiers on the board. There seems to be some discrepancy in the schems, claiming that each speaker is 8 ohms wired in series (resulting in a 4 ohm load) but I'm going to assume that's a typo.

Quoted from Pinkitten:

I’ll be very interested to know what the electrical experts here have to say. When I added my BH, I was very encouraged to see that virtually every board is still produced, by Rottendog or others. I replaced my power supply with new. I noted that the speech and other boards were available. Expensive, but available.

I've done enough head scratching and I've just declared the board dead. I've got bigger board based fish to fry. Tossing this cooked one on eBay for parts and ordering a Swemmer board as soon as my next paycheck comes in.

#1887 57 days ago

The old speakers had tearing in the cones so I figured they needed replacement. I’ll look around for some that meet your recommended specs. Thanks!

1 week later
#1888 48 days ago

Picked up a Black Hole today. Love this machine. Aside from a really intense shop job and a bunch of ground mods, I do have 1 problem: although the machine I picked up has the spinning disk for the backglass with it, the entire motor assembly for it is AWOL.

Rebuilding the spinning disk motor assembly from the parts listed on Pinwiki is easy enough. But the machine is also missing the simple one-piece motor mounting bracket that would allow me to attach the motor to the backbox lamp/board panel in the first place.

Anyone know if that bracket can be found anywhere, or does anyone happen to have a spare one they'd be willing to part with? Thanks for the help.

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#1889 48 days ago

I don't have a Black hole anymore (gift to my brother) and honestly; too lazy to open a set of schematics from Ipdb.org.
It sounds your assement of the damage may be close if not spot on.
Make a table of each connector pin outs and show how they were connected. feel free to put it in a spreadsheet and post a clear Picture here.
I would look for any over voltage connections or any reverse/negative connections. IE a -12V power going into a +12V rail or positive voltage going into a negative rail.

For many of the chips; it should be easy to find a cheap replacement. Heck; if you were really "sporting" go buy one of those cheap ebay IC testers.
ebay.com link
That SC01 tho… is going to be a b. With luck maybe there are some still around.

1 month later
#1890 10 days ago

Hey Black Hole club members! Question for you all.

SHOULD my pop bumpers be scoring 1000? Because as of right now, they do not score any points or make any sound. This goes for all the pops on both playfields. Thoughts?

#1891 10 days ago

Yes, they should be scoring and make a sound. One of the score switches stuck?
100 in 5 ball, 1000 in 3 ball.

Upper playfield is all the same switch # so they are likely wired in parallel, ditto with the bottom PF, they are the same #, but they are not the same # on both playfields.

#1892 10 days ago

This is how they all look. Strangely the bottom playfield fires the sounds but does not score while the upper playfield gives me neither.
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#1893 9 days ago

Going to move this over to its own tech thread because I also would like some help understanding the switch matrix on these games. Thanks

#1894 8 days ago

Has anyone else had trouble replacing the window? The repro I got isn’t close to fitting. Spent hour plus sanding
Didn’t expect it to be such a headache

#1895 8 days ago
Quoted from topkat:

Has anyone else had trouble replacing the window? The repro I got isn’t close to fitting. Spent hour plus sanding
Didn’t expect it to be such a headache

From what I've heard this is a pretty common problem. HEP posted about it when he did a shopout of a Black Hole. It's said that the windows are correct, but the play fields aren't. People say that the factory dremmeled hole varied greatly, but I have no expertise one way or another.

#1896 8 days ago
Quoted from wheyface:

From what I've heard this is a pretty common problem. HEP posted about it when he did a shopout of a Black Hole. It's said that the windows are correct, but the play fields aren't. People say that the factory dremmeled hole varied greatly, but I have no expertise one way or another.

Thanks you. I will look for that thread
I lined the two on each other and they definitely are different. Not a ton but it enough that it’s a headache.

#1897 8 days ago

I used tool box drawer liner cut up and folded over to shim mine, works well, but once you compress it, it's done, it won't spring back up, so don't adjust too low.

The window I used was CPR's and fit fine otherwise.

#1898 8 days ago

I spent hours sanding. Finally got it in.
Bummer when I saw I had scratched it some. But still way clearer than the one I had before.
Thanks for responses..
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#1899 3 days ago

I’m going to be listing my Black hole soon if anybody wants to join the club. Located in corona free pgh pa! Add soon in the market place.

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