(Topic ID: 77057)

Black Hole Club... Members Only!


By mof

5 years ago



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  • Latest reply 6 days ago by Slogan1111
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There are 1842 posts in this topic. You are on page 37 of 37.
#1801 18 days ago
Quoted from zacaj:

I'd only ever do it with 3, since on 5 ball it doesn't save your target bank progress, and completing that 4 bank is the hardest part of getting multiball

Im running the Pascal boardset, and on 5 ball it saves the progress. I am finding there are a lot of subtle rule changes between the pascal boardset and the orignal boards.

#1802 18 days ago
Quoted from uncivil_engineer:

Given how hard multi ball is to achieve, I’d go with 5.

WHAT??? No, no, no, no... this is a three ball game. Don't put on training wheels!

#1803 18 days ago
Quoted from BrewNinja:

Its not really nice to point out they are out there then not say where they are available (which as far as I know, they aren't). I was lucky enough to get one from Steve. I have thought about pulling the ROM back out and making a backup of it, but haven't so far.

You have to know people. For instance, now everyone knows that you have it. Prepare to be inundated with PMs asking for it!!

Also, it was literally available on the second link in google, although I don't know how you go about downloading files from pinball nirvana. I didn't really look any farther.

#1804 18 days ago

I was shocked at how heavy this table is! They don’t build them like that anymore. I disconnected all the wires and removed the head, and the head alone is massive and heavy. So solid. We were able to get the main cabinet up the stairs with a very small dolly (I forgot my hand-truck at home), but it wasn’t easy. Can’t wait to get it all inside and set up.

#1805 16 days ago
Quoted from Pinkitten:

Are there any adjustable settings on Black Hole, such as free play?

Quoted from GRUMPY:

No but you can add a jumper across the switch diodes. Then it will add a credit and start a game at the same time.

I have mine set with alligator clips instead of soldering it.

1C2108CB-09DD-47F8-AB55-93C8D76BCE85 (resized).jpeg
#1806 15 days ago

Was able to get mb for the first time last night. Had to play about 15 games to start one mb. It’s a real challenge to lock balls up and down, then start mb and be able to return both balls up for 3-ball. I like how difficult that is. On some recent releases, you can start multiball modes with a few shots without trying very hard or even knowing why you qualified it. You are highly unlikely to accidentally start mb on The Black Hole.

Question, are the BLACK HOLE drop targets important? Are they simply to qualify higher scoring? I know the stand ups qualify the upper ball lock. I assume the BH drops would be important.

#1807 15 days ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

WHAT??? No, no, no, no... this is a three ball game. Don't put on training wheels!

Two upvotes?? I don't get it??

5 ball is definitely harder

And back in the day this particular game was usually set to five as it was taking 50¢ from you. Of course 5 balls for 50¢ seems better than 3 balls right? LOL it just wasn't so

#1808 15 days ago
Quoted from Pinkitten:

Was able to get mb for the first time last night. Had to play about 15 games to start one mb. It’s a real challenge to lock balls up and down, then start mb and be able to return both balls up for 3-ball. I like how difficult that is. On some recent releases, you can start multiball modes with a few shots without trying very hard or even knowing why you qualified it. You are highly unlikely to accidentally start mb on The Black Hole.
Question, are the BLACK HOLE drop targets important? Are they simply to qualify higher scoring? I know the stand ups qualify the upper ball lock. I assume the BH drops would be important.

They enable the g-force 2x and 3x scoring on the lower playfield

#1809 15 days ago
Quoted from CNKay:

Two upvotes?? I don't get it??
5 ball is definitely harder
And back in the day this particular game was usually set to five as it was taking 50¢ from you. Of course 5 balls for 50¢ seems better than 3 balls right? LOL it just wasn't so

How is 5 ball harder?

#1810 15 days ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

How is 5 ball harder?

Quoted from zacaj:

I'd only ever do it with 3, since on 5 ball it doesn't save your target bank progress, and completing that 4 bank is the hardest part of getting multiball

#1811 15 days ago

Minor Modification

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#1812 15 days ago

I always wondered what the large hole was for, and yes that corner not being lit was a big mistake in my opinion.
Good modification now as most guys are switching to LED and don't have to worry much about the extra current draw with adding lamps.

#1813 13 days ago

Replaced all 16 drop targets with new tonight. One was broken off, making it impossible to complete that bank. Others just worn out. Raising both playfields was daunting at first, but it was easier than I expected. Once I did, it was incredible to see how these were built, like tanks. No way any pinball co would attempt a game like this today. Lower playfields aren’t uncommon now (Congo, ACDC, Munsters) but none of those are as elaborate as Black Hole’s inverted half playfield. Plenty to do down there. Impressive engineering, and Gottlieb Sys80 hasn’t been that bad to work on so far. Knock on wood!

I need to replace the backbox 3rpm motor tho. It’s prob original and does work, but isn’t smooth and is noisy. Anyone have good luck recently updating their rotating backbox motor? Suggestions?

#1814 13 days ago
Quoted from Pinkitten:

Replaced all 16 drop targets with new tonight. One was broken off, making it impossible to complete that bank. Others just worn out. Raising both playfields was daunting at first, but it was easier than I expected. Once I did, it was incredible to see how these were built, like tanks. No way any pinball co would attempt a game like this today. Lower playfields aren’t uncommon now (Congo, ACDC, Munsters) but none of those are as elaborate as Black Hole’s inverted half playfield. Plenty to do down there. Impressive engineering, and Gottlieb Sys80 hasn’t been that bad to work on so far. Knock on wood!
I need to replace the backbox 3rpm motor tho. It’s prob original and does work, but isn’t smooth and is noisy. Anyone have good luck recently updating their rotating backbox motor? Suggestions?

https://www.servocity.com/3-rpm-gear-motor

Just did mine.

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#1815 13 days ago
Quoted from Pinkitten:

Replaced all 16 drop targets with new tonight. One was broken off, making it impossible to complete that bank. Others just worn out. Raising both playfields was daunting at first, but it was easier than I expected. Once I did, it was incredible to see how these were built, like tanks. No way any pinball co would attempt a game like this today. Lower playfields aren’t uncommon now (Congo, ACDC, Munsters) but none of those are as elaborate as Black Hole’s inverted half playfield. Plenty to do down there. Impressive engineering, and Gottlieb Sys80 hasn’t been that bad to work on so far. Knock on wood!
I need to replace the backbox 3rpm motor tho. It’s prob original and does work, but isn’t smooth and is noisy. Anyone have good luck recently updating their rotating backbox motor? Suggestions?

As far as I can find, gottlieb was the only manufacturer to ever actually have a ball travel to a lower playfield and back

#1816 13 days ago

After a couple months of searching I was able to locate a Black Hole close by in pretty good condition! It's currently set up in our living room and playing well.... but it's having some sound issues and power supply issues. 5v on the power supply is only /sort of/ illuminated. The base sound, the "upward arpeggiation" noise, isn't working although all other noises and the speech work perfectly.

Any advice is appreciated and I will report back!

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#1817 13 days ago
Quoted from wheyface:

The base sound, the "upward arpeggiation" noise, isn't working although all other noises and the speech work perfectly.

Background sound might be shut off, setting #5 on sound board.

http://stevekulpa.net/pinball/bh_dips.htm

#1818 13 days ago

The power supply has an adjustment for the 5V. Check that it's actually off with a voltmeter, and if so you can adjust it (with game off and boards unplugged) to get it back in line

#1819 13 days ago
Quoted from zacaj:

The power supply has an adjustment for the 5V. Check that it's actually off with a voltmeter, and if so you can adjust it (with game off and boards unplugged) to get it back in line

I prefer to check it under load, if the game is already being used any harm would have occurred by now. Just clip a volt meter to the cap at the top of the MPU and look for 4.95V to 5.10V volts. Aim for 5.05V but if in this range I'd not worry about it if the game is exhibiting no odd behavior.

#1820 13 days ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

I prefer to check it under load, if the game is already being used any harm would have occurred by now. Just clip a volt meter to the cap at the top of the MPU and look for 4.95V to 5.10V volts. Aim for 5.05V but if in this range I'd not worry about it if the game is exhibiting no odd behavior.

I worry about adjusting while it's on and accidentally going too far. Safer to check voltage with boards plugged, turn off, unplug boards, adjust voltage, turn on, check voltage. Once voltage is 5.05-5.10, then turn off, plug boards back in, and make sure the 5V is actually 5V at the MPU

#1821 13 days ago
Quoted from zacaj:

I worry about adjusting while it's on and accidentally going too far. Safer to check voltage with boards plugged, turn off, unplug boards, adjust voltage, turn on, check voltage. Once voltage is 5.05-5.10, then turn off, plug boards back in, and make sure the 5V is actually 5V at the MPU

To high on the volts and the crowbar protection circuit will kick in on the MPU.. so no harm done there. These machines are not particularly sensitive to higher than normal 5v, seen a few that were well over 5 with no ill effects. Turned them down anyways to be safe.

#1822 13 days ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

Minor Modification

I did a similar mod on my game. It looks so much better with that plastic illuminated ...

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#1823 13 days ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

Background sound might be shut off, setting #5 on sound board.
http://stevekulpa.net/pinball/bh_dips.htm

Dips are all on, but I will triple check that this switch is working and proper. Could be it. That noise can get irritating so I get why they put that switch in there.

Quoted from zacaj:

The power supply has an adjustment for the 5V. Check that it's actually off with a voltmeter, and if so you can adjust it (with game off and boards unplugged) to get it back in line

Will check this pot. I see no reason that the LED wouldn't come on if 5v weren't present. From the previous-previous buyer they said they had rebuilt the power supply board but I'm not sure to what extent. I see a the C1 and C2 have been replaced with the proper spec, but the diodes haven't been touches, nor has R10 been changed or R11 grounded to the diode as some have suggested (although I see few people actually doing this last one mentioned).

Pictures were taken before I moved it around and I'm on my lunch break right now. Will keep you all posted tonight when I get home and check it out.

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#1824 13 days ago

Looks like you did an excellent job. Did you follow the PinWiki tutorial on how to do this or did you have to do some of your own investigative work?

#1825 13 days ago
Quoted from wheyface:

Dips are all on, but I will triple check that this switch is working and proper. Could be it. That noise can get irritating so I get why they put that switch in there.

Will check this pot. I see no reason that the LED wouldn't come on if 5v weren't present. From the previous-previous buyer they said they had rebuilt the power supply board but I'm not sure to what extent. I see a the C1 and C2 have been replaced with the proper spec, but the diodes haven't been touches, nor has R10 been changed or R11 grounded to the diode as some have suggested (although I see few people actually doing this last one mentioned).

All my System 80 machines get a new Gulf Pinball power board on general principle, for $65 you can't go wrong. Once you factor changing out a bunch of components and your time doing so.. New board in this critical area a no brainer for me.
powerboard (resized).jpg

#1826 13 days ago
Quoted from wheyface:

Looks like you did an excellent job. Did you follow the PinWiki tutorial on how to do this or did you have to do some of your own investigative work?

I found the part number here on Pinside and just went from there.

I pulled the old motor off the flat bracket, slipped a 1/8" washer between the bracket and motor snout. Used new screws with washers and spacers to grip the sides of the bracket and then one hole lines up with original bracket. It gets the third screw with a small nut or washer as a spacer between the motor and bracket.

Drill out the original hub adapter with a 1/4" drill bit. Attach to shaft with set screw with end of motor shaft flush with adapter. Reinstall.

The wiring is straightforward.

#1827 13 days ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

All my System 80 machines get a new Gulf Pinball power board on general principle, for $65 you can't go wrong. Once you factor changing out a bunch of components and your time doing so.. New board in this critical area a no brainer for me.
[quoted image]

Is it adjustable?

#1828 13 days ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Is it adjustable?

Not that I'm aware of.

#1829 13 days ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

Not that I'm aware of.

I'm with the implied skepticism of ZacAj. I get nervous about replacement that don't follow the original design outside of the normal modifications people make, but I do also the point of adding up replacement parts and time and years of your life that you've been shaving off your years of convalescence. Tit for tat. We all end up dead in the ground.

#1830 13 days ago
Quoted from wheyface:

I'm with the implied skepticism of ZacAj. I get nervous about replacement that don't follow the original design outside of the normal modifications people make, but I do also the point of adding up replacement parts and time and years of your life that you've been shaving off your years of convalescence. Tit for tat. We all end up dead in the ground.

The Rottendog has no adjustment either, I'm good with either getting the job done.

I have better uses for my time.

FYI other pin manufactures have no adjustment for 5.0V like Williams, not something to lose sleep over.

#1831 13 days ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

FYI other pin manufactures have no adjustment for 5.0V like Williams, not something to lose sleep over

Major mistake on williams/bally's part, in my opinion. Having a regular forced to exactly 5V that degrades over time is a horrible idea. They should all be specced higher to begin with, and have an easy adjustment like gottlieb. Seems crazy that an 'improved' board would lose one of the primary distinguishing features

#1832 13 days ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Major mistake on williams/bally's part, in my opinion.

Your assuming the presence of adjuster is a positive, maybe Gottlieb could not spec out the board to tight enough tolerance and the adjustment was added for that reason. I find the adjustment pots very problematic and prone to failure, so much so I keep them in stock in my "System 80" electrical kit and its one of the first things I check when getting a new System 80/A/B.

To each their own.

#1833 13 days ago

I wasnt trying to start beef or pit people against one another!

So all the test points are very close (42v is a little high). I think just the LED shorted? R12 right above it is extremely hot.

All the voltages going into the MPU and Sound Board are accurate. Suggestions on where to go? I’ve seen some people suggest checking the main playfield diodes. Does that make sense?

All the speech tests work fine, but testing the sound points (s1-s16) on the sound board for the sounds, S16 fails or doesnt make any sounds.

#1834 12 days ago

Looks fantastic! Good price for the motor.

How difficult is it to install? I'm sure it's not just plug and play with the existing 2-prong connector, but requires rewiring? Did you need a new control board for the motor, or just the motor?

Thanks!

#1835 12 days ago
Quoted from Pinkitten:

Looks fantastic! Good price for the motor.
How difficult is it to install? I'm sure it's not just plug and play with the existing 2-prong connector, but requires rewiring? Did you need a new control board for the motor, or just the motor?
Thanks!

Just need the motor.

I was missing the plug on the old motor so I pulled two connector pins from an old Bally sound board, soldered wires to them, heat shrinked and soldered them on the motor. Had a 50/50 chance the motor would be spinning the right direction when it was plugged in and it is.

Easy as pie.

#1836 12 days ago

Reposting with updates:

I wasnt trying to start beef or pit people against one another!

So all the test points on the board, and the voltages sent to the MPU and Driver Board and Sound Board are all present and correct.... but I'm noticing now that the Sound Board Power Supply fuses are blowing kind of easily. As far as the Power Supply Board in the backbox, I think just the LED shorted? R12 right above it is extremely hot and thinking that maybe that caused the LED to fail?

I went through and tested S1-S32 on the sound board for both the speech and the sounds. For the speech, initially, they all worked 1 2 4 8 16 32. Cute voice. The sound however only works for grounding 1, 2, 4, and 8. Those 4 come from Z13 on the drive board, that I know, but I'm having trouble tracing down where the 16 and 32 points are coming from. This whole issue started with the sound as I was putting the playfield back in its place, so, I'm inclined to think that s16 and s32 are the "non-switch triggered" sounds that play throughout the whole game and come from connectors or bundle under the playfield. But I'm just a little lost to be honest.

One of the things I love about this forum is that I get to talk these things out, and in writing them out, I understand the whole process more and I'm grateful for everybody who has helped me figure these things out.

#1837 12 days ago

Per pinwiki (currently down),

"The sound S16 and S32 signals are also repurposed lamp outputs. For instance, Haunted House and Black Hole both repurpose L9 to S16."

"Some sound boards use a fifth sound signal, known as S16. S16 is actually driven by an MPS-A13 like any other single lamp drive. S16 can follow a very convoluted path too, depending on the particular game. For example, Haunted House uses S16. It originates on the MPU with all of the other lamp signals, and becomes lamp drive Q10 on the driver board. It exits the driver board via A3J2, passes through a inline connector, A10J4, passes through another inline connector, A12P4, and finally reaches the sound board at A6J1. That is a lot of mileage for just 1 little sound signal!"

#1838 12 days ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Per pinwiki (currently down),
"The sound S16 and S32 signals are also repurposed lamp outputs. For instance, Haunted House and Black Hole both repurpose L9 to S16."
"Some sound boards use a fifth sound signal, known as S16. S16 is actually driven by an MPS-A13 like any other single lamp drive. S16 can follow a very convoluted path too, depending on the particular game. For example, Haunted House uses S16. It originates on the MPU with all of the other lamp signals, and becomes lamp drive Q10 on the driver board. It exits the driver board via A3J2, passes through a inline connector, A10J4, passes through another inline connector, A12P4, and finally reaches the sound board at A6J1. That is a lot of mileage for just 1 little sound signal!"

You're a hero. Thank you for this. Will trace down that wire tonight. If I were to guess about what happened: when the playfield jumped off the tracks for a second, it marred the case on a few wires, and that they're the wires associated with S16 and S32. It would also make sense to me that S16 and S32 would be looping/reoccurring sounds for both BH and HH (games I have and that have some pretty mindblowingly cool but extremely fatiguing main sounds) would be lamp drivers, timed to loop at an interval. I feel like I've noticed that the switching of the lamps in attract mode are seemingly very close to the length of the loop of the main tracks.

I've been thinking about trying to add service bars/playfield holder what have you to this machine in a more permanent way. I've got one arm that doesn't work (locked at a 90 degree angle) and I've been having a lot of trouble moving this playfield around due to its weight, length, and wobble. That's why the playfield jumped out of its tracks.

Thanks for all the help. I will report back.

#1839 11 days ago

Thanks for all the help here @zacaj @gdonovan and others. This problem is sustaining (s16 and s32 now make a really weak sounding effort to fire and that's all) so I'm going to take it offline to another thread so I don't bog this one down with too much tech. Love this game and I will post some nicer photos and videos of the machine when it's all up and running. I really appreciate everybody's help.

#1840 10 days ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

How is 5 ball harder?

Drop Targets score 3000 vs 5000 (when lit)

Drop Targets score 100 vs 300 (when unlit)

Pop Bumpers 100 points vs 1000 per hit.

There maybe other subtle changes, just what I noticed skimming through the manual this morning.

#1841 6 days ago

Update!

The problem's culprit THE MPU BOARD (and a little bit of my dumbass mistakes). Here is the rundown:

1.) Cracked header pins on the power supply was giving a weak 5V+ to the original MPU board.
2.) A few connectors fell out of their molex housing on the A12P4 housing and one other one which I can't remember the name of.
3.) I was testing the wrong lines when I was trying to test s16 and s32 and was essentially just blowing the Sound Board Power Supply fuse (thank god I didn't mess up more of it).
4.) Something is fried on the MPU board. The target sounds that were firing were all wrong, and a lot of the scoring didn't work (spinner, drop targets didn't score)
5.) Popped in my spare Rottendog board and -wabam- works flawlessly.

Going to replace a bunch of chips on the original MPU and see if I can't get it up and running again. I have been playing the HELL out of this one.

Thanks gang.

IMG_7663 (resized).jpg
#1842 6 days ago

Just joined the club a few weeks ago. Couldn't pass up,the price was right, even though I have never played the game before. Finally got it setup & i must say, this game is freakin awesome!

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