(Topic ID: 77057)

Black Hole Club... Members Only!

By mof

8 years ago


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  • Latest reply 2 days ago by Jkaping
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There are 2,379 posts in this topic. You are on page 31 of 48.
#1501 3 years ago

Spoke to him, Shay group, last Thursday and he said reproduction backglasses will not be available til 2019 at the soonest.

#1502 3 years ago

Nice to see Black Hole being done.

#1503 3 years ago

Just spotted a pinsider selling an outer backglass, and they can bring to Allentown Pinfest. Here's the link if anyone's interested: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinfest-2018-buy-sell-trade/page/17#post-4360902

1 week later
#1504 3 years ago

Anyone have a pic of the coin box?

2 weeks later
#1505 3 years ago

Surprised this wasn't posted yet, but Mirco now has the Gottlieb license to produce playfields and they said they are doing Black Hole and Haunted House first! I for one am pretty excited. Mine isnt horrible, but since its one of my favorite games, I would rather just have a new playfield instead of restoring mine (I had started to take mine apart about a month ago to get started).

1 week later
#1506 3 years ago

Quick rules question: What are the main goals while in multi-ball? I don't see 3x-scoring inserts on the playfield -- is there any scoring benefit to being in multi-ball mode?

-mof

#1507 3 years ago
Quoted from mof:

Quick rules question: What are the main goals while in multi-ball? I don't see 3x-scoring inserts on the playfield -- is there any scoring benefit to being in multi-ball mode?
-mof

I think the big thing in MB is that the lower playfield gate will stay open. Get 3x pf going down there, max your bonus x (so really 15x pf) and then just feed balls to the lower pf and rack up points.

2 weeks later
#1508 3 years ago

Newbie owner, longtime player.

I recently made a swap for Black Hole and am contemplating the switch adjustments.

Assuming specials == extra balls, how many extra balls could theoretically be stacked? I've paged through the manual and can't quite determine that.

#1509 3 years ago
Quoted from Lawlor_and_Order:

Newbie owner, longtime player.
I recently made a swap for Black Hole and am contemplating the switch adjustments.
Assuming specials == extra balls, how many extra balls could theoretically be stacked? I've paged through the manual and can't quite determine that.

There's no extra ball stacking, once you've got one the rest will be ignored till you use it

#1510 3 years ago

Don't know what you swapped for the BH, but in my opinion it had to be a good trade-off - love BH. I have the Pasquale board on BH and Spider-Man, and I get multiple extra balls off one turn - i.e., they "stack." So another good reason to get his boards should the opportunity or need arise. But absent that, with original boards: one extra ball per turn. Another Pasquale benefit is the ability in 5 ball play to carry over targets on the right hand side right above the flipper. That activates the ball lock on the left upper playfield right above the flipper. That feature is, I think, only available with 3 ball play with the original MPU. I like my pinball challenging, just not too challenging...

#1511 3 years ago

I was reading thru the BHHHC manual here: http://arcarc.xmission.com/Pinball/PDF%20Pinball%20Misc/Black-Hole%20and%20Haunted-House%20Repair%20Guide.pdf

...and came across the recommended mod for adding a 2.2 uf cap to the upper playfield slingshot coils to help reduce sparking at the slingshot switches. I ordered up a couple 2.2uf 200v caps from Marco's here: https://www.marcospecialties.com/control/keywordsearch?SEARCH_STRING=xo-995

The caps I ordered are non-polarized as far as I can tell, and now that I'm looking at the manual again I notice they mention it's an *electrolytic* cap and explain the importance of putting the + and - leads on the appropriate coil lugs. Can I use a non-polarized cap here, or is it supposed to be an electrolytic/polarized cap?

Here's the page from the manual:

black hole capacitor mod (resized).JPG
1 week later
#1512 3 years ago

Does anyone know the speaker size and ohm rating? Mine are dry rotted and coming apart

#1513 3 years ago
Quoted from jboner1058:

Does anyone know the speaker size and ohm rating? Mine are dry rotted and coming apart

I have that info at home, I will look tonight and reply if no one else has.

#1514 3 years ago

Hey! the speaker size is 6.5", 8ohm and low watts. i found some on Amazon for $5.00 each. You will pay more for the shipping then the speakers, but they fit and look age appropriate and sound fine.

#1515 3 years ago
Quoted from DDandB-KID:

Hey! the speaker size is 6.5", 8ohm and low watts. i found some on Amazon for $5.00 each. You will pay more for the shipping then the speakers, but they fit and look age appropriate and sound fine.

Awesome! I thought they were 6” like the system 1 machines and was getting worried cause those are very hard to find

#1516 3 years ago
Quoted from DDandB-KID:

Hey! the speaker size is 6.5", 8ohm and low watts. i found some on Amazon for $5.00 each. You will pay more for the shipping then the speakers, but they fit and look age appropriate and sound fine.

Actually Black Hole has two 4 ohm speakers wired in series, so 8 ohm total. I've had 4 Black Holes all original and they were all the same. Maybe the previous owner replaced yours. I'm pretty sure they were 6" as well.

#1517 3 years ago

I was just following what the manual said. For sure don’t want to mislead you!
Just got my first BK and have been fixing a few things (a lot) done by others. Like someone soldering all the grounds together ??? Why would they do that!!!
But speakers are working.

3AE6DCB8-B7EB-402C-88F4-F4B6273777DC (resized).jpeg98D8D799-4E6C-4776-966D-05FC67E151EC (resized).jpeg
#1518 3 years ago
Quoted from DDandB-KID:

I was just following what the manual said. For sure don’t want to mislead you!
Just got my first BK and have been fixing a few things (a lot) done by others. Like someone soldering all the grounds together ??? Why would they do that!!!
But speakers are working.

That's a recommended fix, part of the grounding mods

#1519 3 years ago

Zacaj,
I’m only guessing I should leave it the way it is? Was out of town for a few days but spent a lot of time on the Internet looking for this type of grounding mod. Just couldn’t find any other examples of doing this.
Thanks!!

#1520 3 years ago
Quoted from DDandB-KID:

Zacaj,
I’m only guessing I should leave it the way it is? Was out of town for a few days but spent a lot of time on the Internet looking for this type of grounding mod. Just couldn’t find any other examples of doing this.
Thanks!!

I'm pretty sure I've seen it recommended in clay's repair guides

#1521 3 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

I'm pretty sure I've seen it recommended in clay's repair guides

I've seen it there also. I'd leave it alone--someone else did the work for you on that one!

_20180708_103422.JPG
#1522 3 years ago

I will look that up today. Thanks! Next question if I may. I have no primary fuse. Should I be trying to locate one and reinstall? And do you know the angle needed for the re- Entery tube and correct length? I have new tube, was going to make a template like blownfuse had made. As you can see mine has been cut and cracked
Hope not asking to much.

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#1523 3 years ago

Wow!! Your quick on finding things...
Guess I need to stop working on it and jump on my computer. ha ha
My A12-P1 and A12-P are all hooked together. Still okay?

#1524 3 years ago

Sorry forgot the 2 after the P

#1525 3 years ago

Yup, should be fine. The mod is for redundancy on the grounds for the coils. As it says in the caption--if any one of those connections gets flaky, you could get locked-on coils. This fix ensures there's no way for that to happen.

1 week later
#1526 3 years ago

My game is set up pretty steep, and this seems to make the ball rocket out of the tube when coming back up top. If I want to slow it down, is it just a matter of replacing the coil with one of higher resistance? Anyone already found a good alternative? Is there a better way to solve this than replacing the coil? It has an A-4893 right now.

#1527 3 years ago
Quoted from CaffeineSlug:

My game is set up pretty steep, and this seems to make the ball rocket out of the tube when coming back up top. If I want to slow it down, is it just a matter of replacing the coil with one of higher resistance? Anyone already found a good alternative? Is there a better way to solve this than replacing the coil? It has an A-4893 right now.

Get Cliffy's EOS mod, you can adjust it very finely

#1528 3 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Get Cliffy's EOS mod, you can adjust it very finely

This. It can be a bitch getting the adjustment just right, but it's a great solution that can prevent other common problems caused by that assembly. Just be patient! I had to open up the game over and over to make the eos adjustments, but i got it just right at this point. Mine originally was shooting the ball out so fast, it would jump back up between the flippers like 80% of the time! You'll need a flipper coil in addition to the switch assembly Cliffy sells.

#1529 3 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Get Cliffy's EOS mod, you can adjust it very finely

You will need to email them for that mod. It’s not on the website.
I spent Saturday making my own tube. Made one with rollover switch hole on center. It would jump into tube instead rolling up tube, sending it faster or not at all. As I was playing around with that tube I found If tube is offset turning clockwise about1/8” the ball seats perfect. So for the hell of it I cut a new tube offset hole for switch. Tested about 20 times working perfect no high speed ball or no coming up and out at all. The tube stop on the bracket also was to help the ball to go straight up was the thought but they forgot the left. Turning it gives it a side to keep ball going straight up tube for me. I don’t have the mod and needed a new tube. For fun you could try adjusting the tube support bracket or I remember being young at a arcade and someone had put foam pad the top of the tube to slow it down (old school) lol

#1530 3 years ago

Thanks, I emailed him and ordered the bracket with EOS switch tonight.

#1531 3 years ago

Got my new high score today!! As per usual the majority of the points were scored on 1 ball lol

First pic is my bonus during ball 1 with 5X mult lit. When I took the pic I had just finished playing a multi-ball. The majority of the bonus was scored with only the 2G playfield multiplier lit. Game is set for 3 balls per game and earned 1 extra ball. I only beat my previous high score by 90K after getting 2.8M on the first ball

IMG_20180718_163937 (resized).jpgIMG_20180718_164415_01 (resized).jpg

#1533 3 years ago

Nice 7 digit score displays woz game come that way ie someone else did the work or you do the pin crimping your self? Been thinking about dong this myself but just haven't gone down that road. Also noticed only back box displays are 7 digit thought you had to them all in the game seeing it uses a custom rom.

#1534 3 years ago

I did mine a few years back, its not that hard. Biggest issue is going to be getting a rom. Not sure who all has copies. I got mine from Steve, but he was pretty hardcore about not really handing them out (someone was trying to steal his and cliffy's work and sell it). Only have to do the backbox, the lower playfield display is totally separate from everything.

#1535 3 years ago

Hi All,

I've been suiting up for a deep dive on the first real issue with my Black Hole machine. My eyes were wide open when making the purchase and I knew that these could be bears to troubleshoot and resolve. I have no experience though I'm detail-oriented and can Google with the best of them - schematics are a weak point though.

That being said....

Current Issue:
All four topside flippers will be disabled intermittently. Sometimes they'll start out disabled; sometimes they'll flicker on and off over the course of play; sometimes nothing bad happens during a game. I can replicate it easily by bouncing the ball off of each of the trio of pop bumpers towards the top of the upper playfield. (The bottom bumper on the upper playfield does not appear to invoke the issue.) After I bounce the ball against a bumper after 5+ times while holding a fipper button, the flippers can fail energization briefly and may even go dead. Continually bouncing the ball against a bumper resurrects the dead flippers. Of note, the upper ring of the bumper might randomly drop 1/3 its travel distance after activation and stay there though none of the bumpers ever appear to truly die - I can always reactivate them.

Issue Months ago:
Once out of 10 times, returning from the lower playfield engaged the GI correctly though it didn't seem to engage the upper playfield flippers. I did not troubleshoot the issue thoroughly at the time and this quirk does not appear to persist.

The game came with:
Rottendog MPU
Rottendog PSU
Grounding Mod
Battery Mod

I've inspected:
The Q, T, and U relays under the main playfield towards the back - each appears to trigger manually. I did a generalized, [unprofessional] inspection looking for marks on circuit boards in the headboard and under the playfield, looked for mechanical obstructions to mobile pieces under the playfield, and read the instruction manual for a good long while. I did a self-diagnostic memory check - a 99 as a positive result. A switch check resulted in first a 15 and then a 25, though it achieved a positive 99 as a result after I juggled the ball trough contents.

I've read plenty of forums -many on pinside.com- about similar issues though none with identical symptoms. Based on the replicatable cause, I would have thought a mechanical vibration was causing a connection to come loose but I wanted to check with the experts before inadvertantly ruining something on a notoriously fickle machine. Does the community have a plan of attack or a general area of the pin that I should focus on? Thanks in advance for any help whatsoever.

#1536 3 years ago

I suppose first is making sure you are getting correct voltage from psu to each board.

#1537 3 years ago

Have you check to make sure the switches are adjusted properly on all the pop bumpers? Partly sounds like not. If you disconnect all the pops, does the problem show up?

#1538 3 years ago

Thanks for the speedy suggestions. I'll post an update later tonight.

#1539 3 years ago

Go back to those relays under the playfield. Check that the points are in good condition and adjusted so that they make/break as they should when each relay is activated. The relays are close to the pop bumpers, and the thump from the bumpers may have exposed a marginal connection at a relay. Could also be connection issues elsewhere in the circuit (follow the wiring paths shown on the schematic while you look for the trouble spots).

Quoted from mikey39800:

... Current Issue:
All four topside flippers will be disabled intermittently. Sometimes they'll start out disabled; sometimes they'll flicker on and off over the course of play; sometimes nothing bad happens during a game. I can replicate it easily by bouncing the ball off of each of the trio of pop bumpers towards the top of the upper playfield. (The bottom bumper on the upper playfield does not appear to invoke the issue.) After I bounce the ball against a bumper after 5+ times while holding a fipper button, the flippers can fail energization briefly and may even go dead. Continually bouncing the ball against a bumper resurrects the dead flippers. Of note, the upper ring of the bumper might randomly drop 1/3 its travel distance after activation and stay there though none of the bumpers ever appear to truly die - I can always reactivate them.....
I've inspected:
The Q, T, and U relays under the main playfield towards the back - each appears to trigger manually....

#1540 3 years ago

Well, I don't know what to say. The machine is operating without major issue after my various probes and I've had a full thirty minutes of successful, strenuous testing and another hour of successful, uninterrupted play. I took the following notes before closing up the cabinet and screwing everything back together.

Good:
*All circuit boards in the headboard appear to be operating at a 4.95V - 5V apiece, aside from what I assumed was a transformer.
*All three pop bumpers had paired switches in the open position at rest with an appropriate amount of room between them and their respective halves.
*The rubber plunger on the solenoid shafts triggered the scoring switches correctly.
*All three relays (Q, T, and U) start in a closed position and appear to make good contact. There is enough space between leaves when activated.
*I traced some of the wires aimlessly and admit I didn't have too much direction. I surveyed the various areas and didn't spot damage or anything of note in the immediate area - wire bundles were clean and any attached connections lacked visible breaks or shears.

Anomalies:
*1 in 15 times or less, the metal rings hang halfway down a pop bumper after solenoid activation. Maybe the springs need to be replaced? With an additional ball hit, or a separate pop bumper activation, or flipper press, these rings always spring back to their normal location.
*The middle bumper of the trio will randomly energize when one of the other two does. I thought maybe the leaf switch was too sensitive though I wasn't able to violently shake or bang the playfield in such a way that the bumper activated without a ball present.

Bad:
*Some of the wire casings leading to the relays and a pop bumper had a small amount of burn or corrosion - not on the wire or the connection spot but towards the end of the plastic sheath. If you took a soldering iron and dabbed the plastic lightly, it'd look like that. I checked the immediate areas for something to cause a short or an external piece that'd rub up against it but didn't find any culprit.

Attached Pics:
*Bumper on the right is loosely "stuck" in a quasi-activated position.
*One of the three relays.
*One of the pop bumpers.

"Deactivating" the Bumpers:
These don't have molex wire connectors to disconnect so I just put a folded piece of sticky notes between the solenoid switches. I did not get a single instance of dead/dying flippers for about 10 minutes of testing. In fact after removing the sticky notes, I checked for a further 30 minutes on various parts of the machine, upper and lower, and didn't get a single instance of failure. This involved ricocheting the ball by hand between multiple bumpers, invoking multiplier lights, drop targets, and other features to turn on and I simply could not replicate any problem that might overload the voltage on any connector. The machine was being lit up like a Christmas tree while holding the flipper button down and the flippers didn't experience so much as a flutter this time around.

I'm at a loss for its mysterious nature, though I'm going to call this a win and consider myself extremely lucky. It looks like I might want to take apart the bumper solenoids at some point and replace the springs or in the very least be vigilant and hit a flipper when I catch that the metal ring has descended and won't ascend. (I hope the community will alert me if this is especially grievous.) The migratory symptoms had initially caused me to put a dust cover on Black Hole for months but I'm very appreciative of the quick and helpful support from this forum.

Thanks, all. I'll post again if I start experiencing confounding behavior from this esoteric pin. Game on.
pin1 (resized).jpgpin2 (resized).jpgpin3 (resized).jpg

#1541 3 years ago

Clean and check the U relay contacts as they control the upper flippers and GI.

#1542 3 years ago

mikey39800 do you know if the tsb update for the pop bumper boards was done?

#1543 3 years ago
Quoted from mikey39800:

Bumper on the right is loosely "stuck" in a quasi-activated position.

I'm betting it's a magnetized coil stop and/or plunger. When the pop bumper activates, and the ring stays in the down position, try turning off the game. Does the ring spring back up then? If not, there's either some binding in the pop bumper mech or the plunger and/or coil stop are magnetized. It's apparently common on these games. I replaced all plungers and stops on the pop bumpers on my BH and still occasionally notice one get stuck on occasion. Anyone know any fixes for that issue?

Congrats on your progress, btw!

#1544 3 years ago
Quoted from frunch:

I'm betting it's a magnetized coil stop and/or plunger. When the pop bumper activates, and the ring stays in the down position, try turning off the game. Does the ring spring back up then? If not, there's either some binding in the pop bumper mech or the plunger and/or coil stop are magnetized. It's apparently common on these games. I replaced all plungers and stops on the pop bumpers on my BH and still occasionally notice one get stuck on occasion. Anyone know any fixes for that issue?
Congrats on your progress, btw!

Could be binding or dragging in the sleeve?

#1545 3 years ago
Quoted from frunch:

I'm betting it's a magnetized coil stop and/or plunger. When the pop bumper activates, and the ring stays in the down position, try turning off the game. Does the ring spring back up then? If not, there's either some binding in the pop bumper mech or the plunger and/or coil stop are magnetized. It's apparently common on these games. I replaced all plungers and stops on the pop bumpers on my BH and still occasionally notice one get stuck on occasion. Anyone know any fixes for that issue?
Congrats on your progress, btw!

I just put a little square of cardboard ripped from a #44 lamp box on top of the original stops and it fixed all my magnetization issues.

#1546 3 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

I just put a little square of cardboard ripped from a #44 lamp box on top of the original stops and it fixed all my magnetization issues.

Nice, an easy fix! Thanks!

#1547 3 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

I just put a little square of cardboard ripped from a #44 lamp box on top of the original stops and it fixed all my magnetization issues.

HUH! nice. This is the first time I heard that a coil plunger gets magnetized. weird.

#1548 3 years ago
Quoted from mikey39800:

1 in 15 times or less, the metal rings hang halfway down a pop bumper after solenoid activation. Maybe the springs need to be replaced?

Note: replace pop bumper compression spring with new style compression spring.
---- old part number A-590
---- new part number 21643
---- maker sure the ring and rods are not scraping the sides of the plastic shield and the metal plate that the pop bumper assembly is mounted to.
Make sure that the coil stop is not getting magnetized... and has spurs that can "catch" the plunger.

#1549 3 years ago

Today was a lesson in leaving well-enough alone.

I got home from work and enjoyed a good hour of uninterrupted playtime. I decided to make good on several suggestions from the forum just to get some sort of closure. My quick notes:

*I wasn't ever able to find the acronym TSB in relation to pinball and don't know if that update was done for my bumper boards.
*There is very little resistance on the down and upstroke of the solenoid cylinders. Applied torque and depression caused some resistance on the plastic shield.
*Manually depressing the metal rings -even at non-uniform angles- did not cause them to ever stick.
*Killing the machine while a ring was in a half-stroke position did not release the ring. Only hitting another bumper, that bumper, or a flipper would resolve.
*The downstroke of the plunger motion does indeed have a subtle 'groove' towards the end and a definitive stopping point within the solenoid.
*I considered that you might mean to put the cardboard on the outside of the stop housing. I tried this to no avail.
*The fasteners for those solenoids are so tight that I wanted to forego disassembling them unless there was an overwhelming need. (This would be required if you meant to put the cardboard between the coil and the stop, or if I was going to replace the springs).
*The springs, themselves, are wedging themselves into the bore hole where the plunger midsection meets it. I pried the springs out to increase the tension a bit though no measurable difference was recorded.
*I took note of the old vs new part advice for spring replacement (#21643).
*I was reading that you can demagnetize the plunger by: heating a solder gun and spinning it around the housing, striking it with a steel rod, a blowtorch and other methods I wasn't about to exert much effort on with a working machine. Those solenoid housings are in there TIGHT.
*I made a half-hearted attempt to clean the U, T, and Q relays.

After these tests and observations, I pivoted the machine to its place and realized in horror that the intermittent flipper issue had returned. I poked and prodded all the familiar spots but it seemed even worse than before for quite some time.

I took a doubled-up index card and ran it back and forth between each of the relay switches with a large amount of pressure. Fortunately whether it is the incessant physical jostling or a gaggle of 1980's malicious, voo-doo gremlins with my sanity in their clutches, the machine is back to working like earlier in the day. (Tested for 45 minutes with no issue.)

My final thoughts are.... the intermittent flippers were probably caused by light carbon buildup on the relays. The occasional laziness in the bumper rings might be purely mechanical and I'll order the suggested springs on my next Marco's run. Whether I'll soon risk angering the gremlins for something as benign as this issue, I'm not yet sure. (I can check for bindings and magnetization further when the time comes to disassemble them.)

Thank you sincerely to anyone that spent any amount of time trying to guide me through this. Everything helped.

#1550 3 years ago

You need the cardboard between the coil stop and the plunger, so yes you need to disassemble. Put in a new sleeve while you're there, and maybe even a new fiber yoke for improved pop power.

I'm not sure what you mean about the solenoid housing being tight. What is the housing you're referring to?

For high current relays like the ones powering the GI and flippers, an index card isn't going to do much. Get some sand paper or a good file and clean them up.

There are 2,379 posts in this topic. You are on page 31 of 48.

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