(Topic ID: 168169)

Black Hole ball lift kicker issue - good but bad transistor?

By Archieball

7 years ago


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  • 13 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by 4Max
  • Topic is favorited by 7 Pinsiders

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#1 7 years ago

Hi guys!

I am a Black Hole export version owner from Oslo, Norway. I am some months down the road of my from "rock bottom to tip top"-restoration of my BH, and yesterday I did my first power up. It ended with a bit more magic smoke than I had hoped for.

I have gone the Pascal route with the boards, and I have checked every coil and diode - and renewed some. One of the newly installed coils is (was?) the infamous tube ball lift kicker coil A-4893. So, when I switched on I instantly smelled burning and switched off again. The smoke came from said coil.

During the process of restoration I tested the under playfield transistors to be good. I did not take them out of circuit, but they ticked all the boxes on http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Remote_Mounted_Transistors. Reading up on all the issues with the ball lift kicker, though, it seems to be a rather common problem that these remote transistors go bad.

I have the following questions:

- Even though they test as good, are these transistors - or more specifically the 2N5875 that is connected to the A-4893 - likely to be the culprit? The circuit is rather simple, so except for the mentioned transistor, I can't really see any other explanation except for a wire short somewhere. The all-in-one-Pascal board is right out of the box. The fuse (which I understand has a too high value, but still...) is good. The resistor tests as good as well I think.

- When testing the coil, it seems to be ok. The resistance of the A-4893 is supposed to be 2,1 ohms and it is spot on. It looks ok as well. There was, however, quite a lot of smoke and heat. Do you think the coil is good for another round, or should I replace it?

- My under playfield transistors are all 2N3791, except for the 2N5875 which I think has been inserted at a later stage. I see that the suggested replacement for the latter is MJ2955. Can I replace all remote transistors with the MJ2955? Given what you see in the attached pictures, will I have to start replacing/introducing resistors? This is where I am really green, so any detailed suggestions are welcome.

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#2 7 years ago

I'd clean up those mounts and screws real good so your transistor is making a good electrical contact with the metal plate and lug/wire.

LTG : )

#3 7 years ago

Have you installed the recommended pull-up resistors?

#4 7 years ago

I'll clean them up as you suggest, LTG. Continuity tested ok though. I have not installed any resistors. The ones that are there already are in the picture in the first post.

#5 7 years ago

Whoops, sorry. On mine the resistors don't have a nice pad to install them on like that. I'm not sure of wire colors off the top of my head but, is there a wire from the gate of the transistor for the up-kicker that goes to one of the resistors? And is there definitely 24V on the other side of that transistor? If so I'd desolder the wire that comes from the driver board to the transistor and see if it still locks on. If not, it's a board problem.

#6 7 years ago

Thanks, zacaj. I checked the colour bands on the resistors now, and they seem to be the recommended 4.7k ohms 5%. The way I read the pinwiki article is that this is the upgrade, so I guess the 2N3791's are interchangeable with the MJ2955 (which are the recommended substitutes for the 2N5875/2N5879.

And yes, there is a wire going from the transistor to the resistor (red and white wire in both pictures). I found some further reading which made me a bit wiser by the way: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Black_Hole#Pull_Up_Resistors_Added_to_Remote_Transistors_.28Centrally_Located.29_on_Lower_Playfield

So for troubleshooting, basically what you are saying is: disconnect the driver board wire - switch on - if the coil locks on the transistor is shorted. Sounds good!

By the way, should I consider the previously smoking hot coil as fried, or can I still use it when it checks out fine in the resistance test?

#7 7 years ago

Disconnect driver board wire -> if it still locks on, try jumpering the 24V directly to the gate where the driver board wire was previously connected. If it still locks on, it's the under-pf transistor that is bad. If it doesn't still lock on, go troubleshoot the driver board like you would for any lamp being locked on.

Coil should still be fine as long as the diode is good and the resistance checks out

1 week later
#8 7 years ago

I recently had a similar problem with my BH. The coil for the up kicker locked on and burned. It also fried the playfield transistor. My problem was a leaking transistor on the driver board that was causing the playfield transistor to fail and in turn burn the coil. So, you might check the driver board as well.

1 week later
#9 7 years ago

After some more testing following zacaj's instructions, I landed on the conclusion that the under playfield transistor was indeed the culprit. I swapped all transistors both on the upper and the lower playfield for new MJ2955's, as these seem to be the suggested replacements for the 2N5875's listed in the schematics. Thus, I choose to disregard the fact that most of the under playfield transistors are actually 2N3791's (with 4.7k ohm resistors) and hope for the best. So for now the upkicker works! Some problems remain with the game, but I will try to sort these myself and come back with a new thread if I don't. Thanks to everyone here who got involved!

1 week later
#10 7 years ago

Mine were also funky. I have replaced them all or have enough to do them all (under pf transistors).

My Upkicker had the same odd thing going.

Just saw tnt'a BH and critical mass video. Motivates me to go back to working on BH

#11 7 years ago

After two weeks of gameplay, I can confirm that the MJ2955's do the job just fine.
I was not aware of Critical Mass. Checking out the TNT video now. Thanks for the tip!

1 year later
#12 6 years ago

Question:
With the MJ2955 replacement for the entrance up tube playfield kicker, do you still use the 4.7K resistor for the pull up that attaches to a leg of the transistor or do you take that out of there and do a direct connect without any resistor at all?

Reason being is that mine is still locked on even with the MJ2955 replacement. (Looks like I need to replace the transistor that fires this MJ2955...Q15 on driver board?) But it does not hard lock on. It just sits there and buzzes with no ball in there and switch open, give it a little assist by hand and it pulls the plunger all the way in and stays that way...locked on. But weird how it is a weak type lock on...buzzes etc.

Quoted from Archieball:

After two weeks of gameplay, I can confirm that the MJ2955's do the job just fine.
I was not aware of Critical Mass. Checking out the TNT video now. Thanks for the tip!

4 years later
#13 2 years ago

DRDAVE did you figure out the buzzing?

I "think" I have a similar problem re: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/black-hole-help-for-an-em-guy-kicker-coil-#post-6695527

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