(Topic ID: 357982)

BK2K coil problems(solved)

By hockeymutt

28 days ago


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#1 28 days ago

Picked this up in a trade. trying to wrap my brain on how and why this is occurring. Its a switched solenoid.

Trough release ( SHTR lane feeder solenoid 02A-3) locks on when powered up. So i clipped the purple wire off the coil so i could troubleshoot further. Upon further troubleshooting found that the coil doesn't lock on once you start a game, but will fire when either lower drop target is sent the reset signal to its respective coil and the VUK in the right hand horseshoe. These arent in the same switch column or rows as the release. Have tested the drive transistor ( Q25) and test fine, Had a few on hand so replaced it anyways, even with the blue lightning bolt flasher not locking on and working as advertised.( i knew better) but figured id give it a go. Tested Diode D31 and had voltage on both sides, ASSUMED it was bad, removed and replaced (R/R). No change, problem persist. Have tested other diodes in the respected circuit with all values within limits and compared them to readings on similar fully operational circuits. Im leading in the direction of a bad PIA (6821)but my O-scope is at work, either U54 or U38. Game does have NVRAM if that will assist me finding my way out of the rabbit hole.

Any thoughts? Past experiences?

#2 28 days ago

You've done some really good troubleshooting here!

The general advice:

When you power on the game and before it even boots a coil pulls in, immediately remove power and find which coil is pulling in.

The coil will pull in either because the small wire is grounded (not at all likely!), or (overwhelmingly) you have a shorted transistor (and possibly a bad coil).

Figure out which transistor is associated with the problem. Q25. You've done this. A good replacement (slightly better rated) is a TIP102 here.

Most times it's just the output transistor, but particularly on System 11 boards, the predriver transistor to Q25, Q21 (2n4401) is blown (you can check it with the surrounding circuits when you've got the board pulled, any strange reading, replace it). On many of these boards I'll find the AND gate chip (7408, U20) replaced because it will be bad also, though I haven't personally had to replace many of these chips.

I personally wouldn't have looked at D31-D32, it's been a while since I had a challenging System 11 game problem, so I'm glad you checked this! Good work!

Q25 would have been my first thing to replace. Then I'm going to check all it's circuit parts with it's pre-driver and all the little parts around it. Because all these transistor circuits are the same, it's pretty quick work to verify that the resistors, the predriver transistor etc... are all the same readings as the circuit next to it.

If the coil was held on too long it will have shorted out, and immediately when you apply power (after fixing the problem with the shorted transistor), the transistor will be blown again. So measure the ohms on the coil. Less than 2 ohms is bad. Do the ohms check before applying power.

If the coil is bad, replace it.

When you apply power now (after fixing the transistor circuit's problems, and verifying that the coil is greater than 2 ohms of resistance), the coil shouldn't pull in immediately.

Then go into coil test and see what happens. If you've still got two coils triggering at the same time you'll have to figure out why, but the first order of business is to get the coil to stop locking on before the computer even boots.

Let us know what you find!

#3 28 days ago
Quoted from PinRetail:

You've done some really good troubleshooting here!
The general advice:
When you power on the game and before it even boots a coil pulls in, immediately remove power and find which coil is pulling in.
The coil will pull in either because the small wire is grounded (not at all likely!), or (overwhelmingly) you have a shorted transistor (and possibly a bad coil).
Figure out which transistor is associated with the problem. Q25. You've done this. A good replacement (slightly better rated) is a TIP102 here.
Most times it's just the output transistor, but particularly on System 11 boards, the predriver transistor to Q25, Q21 (2n4401) is blown (you can check it with the surrounding circuits when you've got the board pulled, any strange reading, replace it). On many of these boards I'll find the AND gate chip (7408, U20) replaced because it will be bad also, though I haven't personally had to replace many of these chips.
I personally wouldn't have looked at D31-D32, it's been a while since I had a challenging System 11 game problem, so I'm glad you checked this! Good work!
Q25 would have been my first thing to replace. Then I'm going to check all it's circuit parts with it's pre-driver and all the little parts around it. Because all these transistor circuits are the same, it's pretty quick work to verify that the resistors, the predriver transistor etc... are all the same readings as the circuit next to it.
If the coil was held on too long it will have shorted out, and immediately when you apply power (after fixing the problem with the shorted transistor), the transistor will be blown again. So measure the ohms on the coil. Less than 2 ohms is bad. Do the ohms check before applying power.
If the coil is bad, replace it.
When you apply power now (after fixing the transistor circuit's problems, and verifying that the coil is greater than 2 ohms of resistance), the coil shouldn't pull in immediately.
Then go into coil test and see what happens. If you've still got two coils triggering at the same time you'll have to figure out why, but the first order of business is to get the coil to stop locking on before the computer even boots.
Let us know what you find!

Thanks for the reply, and help! yup i know for a fact its the shooter lane coil and its been clipped on one side so it doesnt lock on at first boot. Ive also isolated the corresponding switch for the coil and tested that. Ill touch the wire to coil as i am running through the flow. also forgot to mention coil is fine and has a resistance of 4.5 ohms, one of the first things i did. Also forgot to mention i have checked the pre-drivers and replaced them while there( had them and why not), they did check fine tho. I meter checked the 7808's and compared those to another know good 7808 and got similar numbers. on the surface they seem good. Without logic probing them. Its almost like one of the outputs is stuck in HIGH, when it should be low at boot, then resets when a new game is started. I think if i get a free moment tomorrow, i am going to pull back the anti chaff tube and have a look. If i dont find any smoking guns, time to break out the megger at 50V ( JK not there....YET) and isolate the wires from the MPU and AUX.

#4 26 days ago

PIA tested fine as per pinwiki, 7808 tested fine per pinwiki. Aux driver board all “a” side diodes (but 1) are shorted. The diode I replaced d31 also shorted. Even all the D1-2x are shorted. Tip36 diodes all tested bad as well. .5V on both sides of the diodes.

The “c” solenoid diodes all tested within limits. .5 on one side and OL the other side.
Pre drive 2n4001s tested ok.

Also its solenoids 02a, 4a,6a. Only thing that is common between all 3 of them is u28 and PIA U38 and U54.

On the aux board they’re all on j1 and j4. 4 and 6 are all tip36 controlled. But don’t interconnect (naturally) with 02 anywhere on the aux board. The board had some flux corrosion which I cleaned up. I *think* I’m heading in the right direction. I’m just going to replace every diode on this aux board and start fresh. Un-flow all headed pins and ensure nothing is cross shorted. Which is a stretch since they’re pins 7(02) 5(04) 3(06) j1 and 8, 6 and 4 on j4.

Switch matrix wise, 1p10 they’re right next to each other at pins 6,7,8.

Last thought is my coin door wiring is a shit show. And they all come together they’re going to isolate there as well.

#5 26 days ago

Start by making sure you are measuring things correctly. If you are not measuring correctly then you are drawing conclusions on incorrect results. This is "garbage in garbage out".

Odds that all those components you listed as bad are actually bad is very close to (if not at) zero. If they all measure the same but things work then your measuring technique is likely incorrect.

Always try to find a single point of failure that explains everything. If you cannot find one then look at the bottleneck points as such a failure may be masking other failures behind it.

You will be better off if you stop replacing (random) components as each time you touch the board you introduce the possibility of making your problems worse.

#6 22 days ago

Rookie move here forgot to take off the connectors prior to testing the board. All checked out correct. So diodes tested within limits, transistors tested within limits, PIA tested and 7808 or 7408( one of those) with a DMM ok-(per pin wiki). Pulled power and ground ( purple/violet and brown) out of the loom to ensure no shorts anywhere none found and still shorted. Also ODD im getting 70 volts at that coil.

In solenoid test it will fire with any coil in test on the "a" side. So i guess im slightly out of the rabbit hole. According to the BK2K manual for non-special solenoids, the signal from the PIA goes HIGH and the Blanking goes LOW and the rest reverse their states. So im guessing that i have a signal not reversing or that portion of the 7408 blanking going low when it should be HIGH. so im down to 2-3 components. 7808, PIA, u28 or predriver 2n4401.

im leaning at shot gunning U28 and see what happens as its the thing i havent tested and havent found a procedure yet.

#7 22 days ago
Quoted from hockeymutt:

According to the BK2K manual for non-special solenoids, the signal from the PIA goes HIGH and the Blanking goes LOW and the rest reverse their states.

That is not what it says.

solenoid_operation.jpgsolenoid_operation.jpg

Quoted from hockeymutt:

So im guessing that i have a signal not reversing or that portion of the 7408 blanking going low when it should be HIGH. so im down to 2-3 components. 7808, PIA, u28 or predriver 2n4401.

If you think you have a logic problem further upstream from the TIP102/TIP122 drive transistor then disconnect the drive wires (1J11) and use your logic probe or oscilloscope to inspect the logic state.

Quoted from hockeymutt:

im leaning at shot gunning U28 and see what happens as its the thing i havent tested and havent found a procedure yet.

You can keep shot-gunning parts but it's not systematic. You want a systematic approach to isolate the problem.

Actually, I would re-describe your problem because I tried to read back through things but I couldn't make much sense of what your actual problem is. Since you've made a bunch of changes I think it would be best to start from scratch and try not to make changes to the system without someone actually guiding you.

If you want help and you're asking for it then you should probably listen and take the help. If you want to do your own thing then why bother asking for the help? Just go and do your own thing.

#8 21 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

That is not what it says.
[quoted image]
This is a controlled non-special, so in the "on state" should be opposite of everything in the "off state" correct?

If you think you have a logic problem further upstream from the TIP102/TIP122 drive transistor then disconnect the drive wires (1J11) and use your logic probe or oscilloscope to inspect the logic state.

You can keep shot-gunning parts but it's not systematic. You want a systematic approach to isolate the problem.
Actually, I would re-describe your problem because I tried to read back through things but I couldn't make much sense of what your actual problem is. Since you've made a bunch of changes I think it would be best to start from scratch and try not to make changes to the system without someone actually guiding you.
If you want help and you're asking for it then you should probably listen and take the help. If you want to do your own thing then why bother asking for the help? Just go and do your own thing.

This is a controlled non-special, so in the "on state" should be opposite of everything in the "off state" correct? even the williams diagram shows the output from the PIA going high blanking low, and end result is coil firing or solenoid "on"

I can see you dont know how ADHD works lol, my problem is coil 02A shooter lane feeder locks on on power up, start a game no longer locks on, but will fire with all coils on bank A and slightly latch when doing so. I know Im a scrambled mess but has worked for me for the past 20+ years in the aviation/avionics field, coming from a person that was in less than BASIC High school classes. Appreciate the help just bouncing ideas off the wall and seeing what others think to see if i'm heading in a proper direction. I can tell there's some condescending tone in that last message, with the " someone guiding you" comment. Really big of you.

#9 21 days ago

Logic probe will help you find the signal that's stuck high/low. Stick it on the input pins of U20 and compare your locked on solenoid to the other inputs of that gate. Since it works properly within the game or at least stops being locked on it seems that the blanking input to that gate might be bad, but you can tell for sure by measuring the logic state output (pin 11) on game start vs. not. Leave the solenoid disconnected so you don't blow things up.

You have to know what the expected inputs and outputs are doing to determine what to replace - both inputs should be high for the solenoid to not fire. Test both inputs to see which one is low. If both are high, test the output, if it's low, the 7408 is probably bad, or the pull-up resistor has shorted.

You can work backwards from the inputs to the next chip up, test it the same way.... input vs. output.

If you don't have a logic probe you can make a crude one with an led and resistor, see Leon's archived tech articles at pinwiki.com

Quoted from hockeymutt:

I can tell there's some condescending tone in that last message, with the " someone guiding you" comment. Really big of you.

Not really, not if you follow Victor's other troubleshooting threads or if you watched his presentation at NW pinball show. You can bounce ideas off people all you want, but I think what you're looking for is someone to tell you it's ok to just start shotgunning everything until it's fixed. That's usually what people want when they ask for help IMO, someone to tell them their idea to fix it is ok, vs. a measured approach. If that's the case, do your shotgunning. Victor is trying to get you to think in a different way, as to why you can test stuff instead of just replacing stuff.

If leading someone down a thinking path of "Why" is condescending to you, I don't know what to tell you. It's still helpful advice for future troubleshooting. I've seen 20+ years (and experienced both sides of this) starting on RGP where someone asks a question, gets an answer, and then proceeds to tell the answerer that they're wrong.... without actually trying the advice.

Taking advice isn't weakness.

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#10 21 days ago
Quoted from hockeymutt:

This is a controlled non-special, so in the "on state" should be opposite of everything in the "off state" correct? even the williams diagram shows the output from the PIA going high blanking low, and end result is coil firing or solenoid "on"

That's not how it works. There are parts of the circuit that work that way. There are parts of the circuit that do NOT work that way. Everything from the input to the 2N4401 works the way you think it does. The 7408 does NOT work that way. It is an AND gate. It takes two inputs and produces one output.

Quoted from hockeymutt:

I can see you dont know how ADHD works lol, my problem is coil 02A shooter lane feeder locks on on power up, start a game no longer locks on, but will fire with all coils on bank A and slightly latch when doing so.

I can think of no obvious single point of failure that would cause what you are describing. I can think of a few contrived single points of failure but would be the result of multiple internal failures. Possible, but not likely. If you shotgun parts you should eventually replace all points of failure on the board. It won't fix failures in the playfield wiring.

Quoted from hockeymutt:

I know Im a scrambled mess but has worked for me for the past 20+ years in the aviation/avionics field, coming from a person that was in less than BASIC High school classes.

This is something that most people who post looking for help don't understand. You are aware of your experience. Think about it from the other person's perspective. They don't know your experience and background. They can only judge you by what you have written and your description. If the person providing assistance gives information that is too "basic" then you'll feel insulted because you already know that stuff. If the person providing assistance gives you information that is too "complex" then you'll feel insulted because you don't know that information and you look "dumb". In both cases, the person providing assistance insults you. So what does this person do?

Quoted from hockeymutt:

Appreciate the help just bouncing ideas off the wall and seeing what others think to see if i'm heading in a proper direction. I can tell there's some condescending tone in that last message, with the " someone guiding you" comment. Really big of you.

About a week ago, I gentlely provided a suggestion and got (what I would consider) a snide comment in return. I figured that I would give it a break. About a week later, I come back to help and make the above post. Then I get back that comment from you. Guess I need to just give it another break for another week or so.

Please try to understand that ANYBODY providing help is doing so because they want to help. They are taking time out of their day to help (more often than not) a complete stranger on a public forum. Why would anybody do that unless they had good intentions? If I had bad intentions I would just go post in those drama threads like a troll.

I do finally see what caused me to post. You wrote about replacing U28 when I think you meant U20. When I went to look at the schematic, I was fairly sure that replacing U28 was extremely unlikely to help you. I was trying (as slochar wrote) to get you to think about what you're doing before doing it. You can certainly shotgun replace all the components upstream from the drive transistor and it may fix the problem (may because you cannot fix playfield wiring problems by changing components on a board). It may also make the problem worse if you destroy traces on the board. If your intention is to shotgun replace components then just shotgun replace them. Asking for confirmation is unlikely to change your mind about your planned path forward.

#11 21 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

That's not how it works. There are parts of the circuit that work that way. There are parts of the circuit that do NOT work that way. Everything from the input to the 2N4401 works the way you think it does. The 7408 does NOT work that way. It is an AND gate. It takes two inputs and produces one output.

I can think of no obvious single point of failure that would cause what you are describing. I can think of a few contrived single points of failure but would be the result of multiple internal failures. Possible, but not likely. If you shotgun parts you should eventually replace all points of failure on the board. It won't fix failures in the playfield wiring.

This is something that most people who post looking for help don't understand. You are aware of your experience. Think about it from the other person's perspective. They don't know your experience and background. They can only judge you by what you have written and your description. If the person providing assistance gives information that is too "basic" then you'll feel insulted because you already know that stuff. If the person providing assistance gives you information that is too "complex" then you'll feel insulted because you don't know that information and you look "dumb". In both cases, the person providing assistance insults you. So what does this person do?

About a week ago, I gentlely provided a suggestion and got (what I would consider) a snide comment in return. I figured that I would give it a break. About a week later, I come back to help and make the above post. Then I get back that comment from you. Guess I need to just give it another break for another week or so.
Please try to understand that ANYBODY providing help is doing so because they want to help. They are taking time out of their day to help (more often than not) a complete stranger on a public forum. Why would anybody do that unless they had good intentions? If I had bad intentions I would just go post in those drama threads like a troll.
I do finally see what caused me to post. You wrote about replacing U28 when I think you meant U20. When I went to look at the schematic, I was fairly sure that replacing U28 was extremely unlikely to help you. I was trying (as slochar wrote) to get you to think about what you're doing before doing it. You can certainly shotgun replace all the components upstream from the drive transistor and it may fix the problem (may because you cannot fix playfield wiring problems by changing components on a board). It may also make the problem worse if you destroy traces on the board. If your intention is to shotgun replace components then just shotgun replace them. Asking for confirmation is unlikely to change your mind about your planned path forward.

i appreciate every piece of advice i can get. Ive always lived by the mantra and preached it new people "once you think you know everything, its time to find a new job or pull your head out of your ass". I Definitely dont help my cause as i type like a chicken with its head chopped off. I'm the age or generation that is old enough to know about circuits and tubes but not old enough that they fully explained gates and logic etc, think while in avionics school it was an hour subject and was just given a table to memorize and data dump. Because we were just box jumpers and card replacers.

As for soldering spent weeks behind a station with a magnifier while some instructor destroyed your perfect solder job verbally and made you fix it till was NASA approved.

But on topic appreciate the logic flow there! This is exactly why im typing out and seeing what sticks to the wall. See you mentioned playfield wiring i have isolated the switch matrix ( the switch itself is bypass in the matrix or removed from the equation). I even removed the soleniod control wire from the loom( PURPLE-VIOLET)

Replaced U20, with no change. This was without my desoldering station, not to bad of job for my milwaukee M12 iron and the old mechanical spring sucker, ran out of solder wick but had some shielded wire laying around, made my own.
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#12 21 days ago

Solved and fixed, helps when you’re looking at the right circuit. One of those weeks. Appreciate the guidance immensely DumbAss and slochar and lastly @pinretail. It was Q33, noticed this by starting fresh starting and chatting with the old man about quad gates etc. knew I was in the wrong parking lot when the “old man” was perplexed. Started going through the solenoid test. Noticed the “red lightning bolt” was firing with the coil and bingo. Meter to diode test, base to emitter let out the tone of my people. Removed and replaced all golden. At least U28 has a fresh socket. Also to note “F” the guy that used plumbing flux on this board and every solder joint he touched. This rabbit hole revealed lots of flux related corrosion that require remediation.
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#13 19 days ago

Glad to hear you are working.

Some fluxes are more aggressive than others, and I don't know about every plumbers solder in current use, but here is the caution:

Old style plumbing solder flux is acid based, and will, over time eat out the connection.

You'll never have a reliable connection (over the span of years) if true acid core plumbing solder was used.

Even using a soldering iron/gun with rosin solder for the work you are doing, but the tip of the iron/gun had previously used acid core solder will be enough to cause problems.

If you applied your soldering iron to acid based solder flux on the board, discard that tip, and suspect every joint you have made with the the soldering iron tip that might have acid mixed into it's metal.

If plumbers solder (acid core) has been used, I generally would recommend replacing the board... it's that bad a problem.

The hardest thing to fix is sabotage!

#14 19 days ago
Quoted from PinRetail:

Glad to hear you are working.
Some fluxes are more aggressive than others, and I don't know about every plumbers solder in current use, but here is the caution:
Old style plumbing solder flux is acid based, and will, over time eat out the connection.
You'll never have a reliable connection (over the span of years) if true acid core plumbing solder was used.
Even using a soldering iron/gun with rosin solder for the work you are doing, but the tip of the iron/gun had previously used acid core solder will be enough to cause problems.
If you applied your soldering iron to acid based solder flux on the board, discard that tip, and suspect every joint you have made with the the soldering iron tip that might have acid mixed into it's metal.
If plumbers solder (acid core) has been used, I generally would recommend replacing the board... it's that bad a problem.
The hardest thing to fix is sabotage!

Haha yea! I know the feeling. My old avionics shop kept having issues with solder joints on switches failing over a few flight hours, we had this jar of clear “flux” with a part number and stock number. Happened to use the solder station for a pinball related repair before I bought my own station and had a huge issue with the joint reacting with the board. Happened to google the part number for the flux to find out that someone ordered plumbing flux years ago and was the source of our problems. Want to say we had a case of this stuff and been using it for over 2 decades.

Had the supply guy order flux pens and we slowly stopped fixing switches.

#15 19 days ago
Quoted from hockeymutt:

Trough release ( SHTR lane feeder solenoid 02A-3) locks on when powered up.

Quoted from hockeymutt:

It was Q33, noticed this by starting fresh starting and chatting with the old man about quad gates etc.

Outhole kicker was actually locking on not the lane feeder? Wow.
I followed this thread as it seemed like a head scratcher and wanted to see where it ended up. Some of the troubleshooting techniques
I would not have ventured down, but then like a weird reality TV series I couldn't look away. The ending though was quite spectacular with the old man character, but I still have no idea what happened as I lost the story line after the "purple" wire got clipped.

#16 19 days ago
Quoted from Seamlesswall:

Outhole kicker was actually locking on not the lane feeder? Wow.
I followed this thread as it seemed like a head scratcher and wanted to see where it ended up. Some of the troubleshooting techniques
I would not have ventured down, but then like a weird reality TV series I couldn't look away. The ending though was quite spectacular with the old man character, but I still have no idea what happened as I lost the story line after the "purple" wire got clipped.

haha! yea i dont know why i went with the lane feeder and followed that path, prob ADHD doing 3-4 things at once. Would have had this solved within the 30 mins of troubleshooting. I know how to read/use a meter and schematics! Or so i thought!

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