Pure fishing. Try selling an EM and you'll get an idea about their low prices.

Keep in mind the price of pinball in general these days is outrageous. Everybody's dubbed it "pinflation". Craigslist and eBay are usually always overpriced but it's probably closer to the actual nowadays unless that went up with it.

Pinflation is crazy in my local market. There's been a 1979 kiss on sale for $3500 cdn. the machine isn't even that nice looking. The average price listed for EM games is over a grand although a don't think they are selling for that much. It's rare to see a system 11 game listed for less then $2000. Finding any DMD game for under $3000 is almost impossible here

Same here. I'm not entirely sure why though, I can't imagine people buying these games at these prices. It simply isn't worth it.

There's been a really REALLY beat up Gottlieb Sky Jump around here on CL for months now: Rusted, flaking, and a black painted cabinet, and more planking on the playfield than a pirate ship. The guy has been asking $600, unflinchingly, and he's been renewing the ad several times. So it's clear that people aren't buying the games at these prices.

Hell, I remember when I was trying my nice William's Straight Flush on CL for the longest time. In nice shape, perfectly working, and I had a hard time giving the damn thing away. I eventually sold it for $350, but the lady kept trying to get me down to $250. I would have been selling the game at a loss at that point.

$600 for a beat up Sky Jump isn't really that bad of a price IF you are attempting to restore one. With a repro backglass and a Wade Krause playfield coming soon it would make sense to purchase it.

In my VERY short-term experience with EMs, I've learned to ignore everybody except pinball guys and known people on Pinside. Paid $400 for a Jacks Open from a Pinsider, but could have had the pleasure of paying $1700 for a Grand Slam from an antique shop. I won't look much further than Pinside in the future.

blame pinrescue

Oh boy, rant time... (and please don't take it personally! No offense meant to any of my Pinside-postin' peers.) "Let me overpay for a $600 junk condition game I don't really want but it's trendy so I can overpay even more and spend $800 more to buy a new playfield + backglass"

That's nuts. "It would make sense to purchase it." No, it wouldn't, whatsoever. (On that note, if you're making "excuses" for buying games it may be becoming a problem rather than a hobby) Money is taking over this hobby and it sucks. You'd pay $600 for some painted over wood and wiring since you wouldn't need the original glass or playfield either? Must be nice to have that kind of money. These things aren't worth that anymore, let's be honest. What we all pay for these days is hype.

You guys keep blowing tons of money on buying basket cases and reproduction parts and I'll keep getting amazing deals of nice original games that don't need anything. Just wish the prices were more affordable across the board. Don't mean to be rude, just grinds my gears, especially because I need to rely on games that are really cheap that have nice art to even participate in getting new games, and having them be nice examples from the start on the parts that can't be redone is a must because calling the reproduction playfields and glasses in that order expensive is a big understatement. It gets worse and worse each year and I used to just deal with it but now it seems like the people who used to be sensible about it too are starting to get sucked into the hype and it's really just baffling. I've never EVER paid over $500 for really nice games, from Domino and Spin-A-Card to a Comet and Devil's Dare all in fair to very very good condition. Meanwhile there's a thread about how a piece of shit, missing parts and broken Centaur for $2,200 is amazing deal and how this trashed Sky Jump is anything close to worth it at $600, but only if you spend an unreal amount of money to make it nice again. This hobby is turning into a money game more than ever and that really sucks.

Early on I noticed my personal perception of how much money something like $100 really is depleted and it sure seems like it's a lot worse for others by now. To most people, that's a lot of money, but we all attribute it to an amazing price for a glass like it's nothing, like it's pocket change. Something this hobby does I guess.

Nice rant. You should of stopped when you mentioned you don't want the title. Some of us like the restoration process.

your rant has some merit but what did you pay for that star jet that came in a cardboard box?

trendy and pinball can not be paired.

nope.. bought one for $150 about a year ago.. spent easily $100 on parts (including warm LED's). touched up the playfield, did a light clearcoat, flame polished all the plastics, polished all the metal, backglass was nearly flawless, played perfect. Was lucky to break even at $250 after sitting on CL for 3 weeks (nevermind all the labor I Put into it).

Personally, Sky Jump is one of the titles I've actually always wanted but I'm saying about how it seems like some jump at any bottomless pit project no matter the title because it's a popular game. I like the restoration process too, but not when when you have to pay 70% of restored retail to start. It isn't worth that, and shouldn't be regarded as "okay" or it'll stay that way.

Over-eager dads who want to get rid of their 1 machine have already been listing their machines at 4x what they're worth on Craigslist for years, but it's always been general concensus here that it's laughable and unrealistic, but now people on here are sure starting to sound exactly like them. Don't know why. Maybe the market and patience levels are drying up.

Maybe you should of left out the LED's

Yeah, I could probably eat some of my words for that. I feel like that was a highly unique situation though, and I paid way less than it has always been worth as a whole which is why I'd see it different as what I'm complaining about. Nice condition too.

I think paying $600+ for a nice Sky Jump is totally fine and my statement isn't about people overcharging for beautiful games, it's about casual people, newbies, and greedy people always getting the wrong idea on rough project game prices and it finally after all these years starting to sound "reasonable" to some here rather than totally crazy. There needs to be a high end and low end to this hobby and right now the low end is starting to turn into the old high end. No new people are going to come in with these prices and the whole market is just gonna dry up or people are going to be suckered into paying way too much for something that isn't worth it, which seems like it is beginning.

I just sold a shopped, working game (rough cosmetically) on CL for $350 and had 10 people on it right away...apparently that looks like a screamin' deal with all the beat $600 games out there.

+1

Sky Jump is a desirable Wedge head with extreme potential given that Wade is going to produce the playfield and the backglass is available. It's not your average $350 em machine. Show me a $350 wedgehead!

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we must face the fact that prices have gone up. as a seller i like it, as a buyer i do not!
as a hobby you buy what you want or what you can. there looks to be more that can do "what you want" rather than "what you can"
deals still can be had, BUT you must be quick in the days of the internet.

pretty good glass on that TP, they tend to be bad.
not a bad deal on a great game.

That's not a $350 wedgehead since I doubt Wickerman would sell the machine at that price.

I thought about it some more and I believe that in this hobby you should be able to buy a game title at any price point within a certain range. If you want to buy a restored game, pay a lot, or if you want to save money, pay less and put a lot of work in. You simply should not pay a lot because "it'll be nice... eventually". That's the point of paying very little, you pay a lot for nice things, and pay progressively the nicer it is. I'm not saying "everybody should get a $100 nice Sky Jump", I'm saying it should be possible to still buy a heavy project Sky Jump for $100 and a slightly nicer one for $200, etc., etc..

Definitely possible and has been done many times. A game shouldn't have more potential because somebody is reproducing the parts, it should be worth more as a title because it plays good ad worth more on top of that as one machine based on that machine's condition. Sky Jump does play good, but shouldn't make the pile of ashes of one burned to a crisp in a fire worth 10x more than an awful Chicago Coin, same goes for if they reproduce parts or not.

Should be worth the same as it did before they started reproducing the parts because it doesn't even come with any of the parts included in the first place, what's the logic in that?

You're paying some random guy more money for selling a beat on machine just because now it can be restored nicer, but you'll need to get all of those new materials yourself, and not only is he not giving you a deal on said parts, he's not even providing them in the first place (of course), he's a random dude.

So: Reproduction parts are available, but in no way are they included or even sold by the same seller. I don't see how that makes the original item worth any more money...

Glass had repairs, looked much worse lit up. Playfield had lots of planking.

I actually knocked another $50 off since the guy helped me move a behemoth arcade game in to my basement...so it was a $300 game ***gasp***

I firmly believe a bgrest glass for 200-250 is worth every penny. Beck, Mayfair was asking $200-250 for NOS glasses fifteen years ago. One nice thing is Steve discounted ones with scratches and was always very honest with the condition of every glass he sold to me.

I prefer a nice backglass over a nice cabinet or playfield.

Yes.

And don't forget, every year there are less and less blown out games on the market to buy.

People keep restoring more of them, so the available pool of cheap games becomes shallower.

I'm happy with my projects, can't wait to forward!

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Definitely agree across all fronts. Playfield is just as important to me though, but I do not feel the same way about the price of playfields. I'm sure there's a cost for what's being done but I would also imagine there's quite a profit being made. I could never see myself paying that much for a reproduction playfield, but could definitely see myself paying the price of a new reproduction backglass.

That is indeed very true and I think you've made the best valid point so far. However, the pricing of this "market" of machines that are no longer actively being built (so, 99.9% of them) is also entirely what we make it. Most of us aren't even close to being the original owners that had to pay up the hefty price to the distributors (who also likely made that money back and more through coin-op play anyways), and I don't know of anybody who would publicly sell a machine at the same amount or at a loss straight away so the prices are ever-increasing.

The only other thing would be increasing price for work done for parts + labor expenses (which I see as valid), but that doesn't exactly apply to this particular game I'd imagine...

All in all, keep in mind although a lot of my comments can be seen as relative to all machines being sold regardless of condition, but I'm still only focused on the pricing of untouched project love-needed machines mainly and could see why there would be a large premium for a nicely and tastefully restored machine based on work and parts alone, that's just people being people. If they put hours into it, of course they'd want to charge more, I would too, although some would argue my point against even these machines I'm sure, but I understand why restored machines would have a premium on them. Charging based on hype alone when the game is very rough kind of sucks though, and even worse is when people here are starting to think of it as okay. Hell, I even agree with people charging more for legitimate rarity projects/games (games like Gemini, Star Jet, Blue Note, etc.) because there wasn't many made and their non-project counterparts are super expensive, but they made 4,200 Sky Jumps, they're only hard to find in the first place because anybody who is selling them has a huge price before they'll budge. All these machines are worth what people make them both physically (with work & improvements) and mentally/from hype ("Sky Jump is such a great game", "Sky Jump has such a great theme"), but it's not like they have worth anymore from a monetary perspective besides what we paid for them, literally: because we didn't build them and have money stored in them that way, nor as a future opportunity: they aren't making us any money from play anymore. (Like you see in business FS ads "Firm because this still makes me money and what I make from it would be above your offer", doesn't work for most of these machines especially in project form)

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I think I've said everything I need to, now.

TL;DR my opinion:

Expensive immaculate restorations & expensive immaculate museum quality/very good quality machines = Go for it! Although some may not agree

Expensive absolute POS broken projects because the game is popular and trendy in it's restored state but you didn't even do the work to get it there or include any parts to = Wrong wrong WRONG, and these people shouldn't be supported and I'm baffled they are starting to be. Equivalent the people riding the trend wave who attempt to sell half-unsealed ziploc bags of air from a popular concert for $500 (with or without their tickets also only being $50).

At that price, just have some patience buying tickets and go to the damn concert itself!!!!! (in this case wait for a nice example of a Sky Jump for $600 or less, or a rough Sky Jump at $150 and restore it)

Thanks for the discussion guys.

Listen up DMD snobs, there's ALWAYS been a market for higher prices EM games that have been refurbished and play great. Yeah you can get any old piece of crap for $400 but not everybody thinks this way. You used to be able to get old Bally Digitals like Harlem Globetrotters for nothing, and now those games - shopped out properly - go for what WPC games sold for 10 years ago.

It's just a natural progression. EMs rule and nice ones are worth good money. It was only a matter of time before people figured this out.

Pin rescue has been doing this since the Reagan adminstration. This angle is a fail.

The only thing that saved the backglass was that the ground wire to turn them on got cut.. I'd prefer it didn't start to flake from all that heat. I'll also add that it was a family friend that owned it since 1978 (IE only spent 4 years on route).

Picking up my 2016 Tacoma off road tomorrow. Only casualties are my Crosstown and Pop A Card.

Those are fine looking Sing Along and Wizard! playfields. I have a Wizard with a very good PF and I had a NOS (not a repro) Bally playfield for it. Ended up selling the playfield as I care more about the backglass.

the op is a little hypocritical, he paid big money for a less than parts machine(star jet) and stated "I feel like that was a highly unique situation though, and I paid way less than it has always been worth as a whole"
he will have to spend far more money to make it whole(nice) than it will ever be worth.
i do not have a problem with what he paid for what he got. my issue is his situation was "unique"
everyone could could say the same. i know i paid more for a certain title because it had sentimental factor or i just had to have it.
so as everything being sold today is only worth what someone is willing to pay. if no one buys it the price will come down.

years ago before all these guys started making repro parts. many very nice machines were being trashed or parted out.
now that you can get them of course they now have potential. i know bgrestro saved a lot of off the wall titles that would of otherwise been parted because you know they were not getting a screened bg.
and like vid said the pool of restorable games are drying up.

does the cabinet on that sing along look as good as the pf?
i wish i would've gotten 2 of wade's sing along pf

i did just get wade's Knock Out pf. haven't opened it yet

Possibly true, but then again it was a Star Jet and the only reason I was able to afford it in the first place was because it was smashed up, and because of that I do believe it is a unique situation. It's very hard to put a price on that title but if it went on here as a whole for what I bought it for I feel it would have been gone very very quickly.

I'm going to disagree, because a lot of people want this game. (I also plan on it being "keeper" status regardless) I'm looking forward to making it beautiful and not spending much and thankfully I'm not in the hole too bad as is, it was probably cheaper than most would expect and I certainly didn't pay asking price on all of those items, was definitely a package deal. Just needs a cabinet, paint, a new ball, and a whole lot of soldering! Luckily love and effort is free! If only these machines knew what we did for them. It's a fun process, though.

Here is another variable in EM Pin prices.

The aging Baby Boomer that has extra resources. They will buy happiness and memories at any cost. They will usually pay for quality.

In the future, it will only be collectors buying EM machines. We are seeing the last wave of "dad bought an EM in the 60s and 70s and now the kids trying to sell it." Every single one of these machines is moving into collectors hands. Reason is they break too easy and there's no one left to fix them anymore. It's like VCRs. In fact, I wouldn't sell any of my machines to anyone but a knowledgeable collector. Reason is quite simple; I don't want to deal with the hassle of the first time a relay goes out of adjustment them calling me up and complaining. In fact, it's almost better to sell the machine as not working even if it is, at least then you're off the hook.

So what's my point ? Well, if the number of collectors is increasing for these machines and supply is limited, the price simply has to go up. That's happening now a bit. Also, some games will be lost to dump as they age due to not being taken care of. I suspect with all these machines being rescued off Craigslist, that's less likely to happen than it was 10 years ago.

However, my overall argument is that the only ones we are competing with is ourselves. The high bar for technical knowledge in the absence of readily available repair technicians will limit that appeal, and the number of collectors will probably actually go down for EM machines as they become more impossible to repair. Same thing may eventually happen to SS, but for now a lot of that remains Lego block for those with even limited technical knowledge to repair with lots of plug and play replacement boards available.

In the future with a limited number of collectors, EM machines will be more prone to break, with fewer and fewer parts are available (the Tim Arnold refrain), there will likely be a limit to these pin prices.

The counter argument to everything I've written is the world or jukeboxes. Prices there have continue to rise, but essentially all these are heading out of the US to Europe at high enough prices for several people to make good livings refurbishing and selling.

There is so much about this that is wrong...your post is just all over the map but I'll try to work on a few of the more coherent points.

EMs are like VCRs?! I don't even know where to start with this one. VCRs went away not because there's nobody to repair them, it's because a cheaper, better alternative arrived (DVD, then blu ray, then streaming). VCRs are worthless because there is no reason to own them. In no universe or in any way can you analogize them to EM pinball machines, which still have value.

They break all the time and nobody can fix 'em? That's also hogwash. They aren't any harder to repair than digital machines and there are plenty of online resources that will continue to educate people, for free, on how to deal with them. Anybody who can figure out how to fix a digital game is smart enough to learn how to repair an EM game if they want to.

Last Wave of EM collectors? How do you know? There still seems to be plenty of people who want EM games, and as digitals of all eras become more and more expensive that isn't going to change - there's always gonna be a market for EM games as long as pinball ownership is a popular thing. Not to mention, EM games continue to be mainstays at big tournaments. They are still relevant.

Fewer parts?! That's nuts. I've never had any kind of trouble getting EM parts, most are still being manufactured. EM pinball will never be obsolete because almost all of them can be restored to at least working order with a screwdriver, switch adjuster, and contact file.

EM pinball isn't going anywhere, and certainly not for any of the reasons you listed.

Prices are all over the place with em's.

The key thing is being able to assess condition. Every price is relative to condition.

Seen tons of woodrail projects that seem overpriced to me - easy to pass on.

And then up comes a rare 1950 woodrail for example in amazing survivor condition. How do you price that when it might be the best left in existence from a production run of anywhere from 500 - 1000?

And it has gorgeous artwork and actually it is an amazing player.

Pay $9000 for the latest Stern Ghost Busters LE or buy something unique , that is truly limited as there might only be 20 left on planet earth and the one for sale might be the nicest! And with micro markets, how do you price games where for example zero have appeared on ebay in 9 years?

I think the other thing is the debate of restored v original games and what premium people give to beautiful originals. Another debate as some do and some don't and that shows we all have our individual preferences as the other thread has shown.

Good news; my 22 year old son can repair EM's so we're set for awhile. He loves to drive and fly so he can do service calls all over the place. Mileage charges may apply.......

Yea the big question, will EM's outlive the baby boomers? I dont have an answer. What is the median age of the boomers, 65, 66? I was born in 1956, sort of on the tail...

It depends on whether or not the EM eats right it gets regular exercise. Today's baby boomer is active, and rejects the old notions of aging. I think many will outlive old em pinball machines.

Hey, just trying to contribute to the debate. I don't 100% subscribe to everything I wrote either. Yes it's all over the map because honestly this is a supply/demand thing and lots of variables are going to effect that equation. Just trying to provide some reasons those variables might move in one direction or another. Whether they are true or not ... well that's how speculators enter the market on one side or the other. Just like real estate. Many of the points you make are good arguments why I may well be wrong there. Nevertheless, if I'm going on a pure buy, hold, sell decision, I don't see value dramatically increasing, but could be entirely wrong about that. Of course I would suppose that there are few if any of us on this forum looking at collecting EMs as a get rich quick scheme.

Yes

On a more serious note, I'd expect prices to drop way low a few decades from now. Not like $40 low because the DMD guys will still be swapping their one or two novelty EMs, but lower than now. I'd really like to open a museum one day and just preserve these games (non-EM included) in the public eye for much longer than the EM community will be around, as sad as that thought is.

(I'm also glad I had to start out in the lower end of these machines (multiplayer games being cheaper) because Jack In The Box is just as important to preserve as Jacks Open.)

Still plenty of us left, Boomers start in 1946 and end in 1964, so some boomers may be around another 30 years playing/collecting pinball, it would be nice to be in that club.

Bizarre EM pricing? No more bizarre than $8000 Ghostbusters or MM remakes.

Just like any other era from pinball some titles are more desirable than others. So they will fetch more money. Even more if in nice condition.

It seems only collectors are buying new machines too. But with EMs, you have mostly unlicensed themes with classy hand drawn artwork that will stand the test of time much longer than these licensed outdated pinball themes of today that nobody's kids care about now let alone 20 years from now.

I'm GenX and I like some EMs.

The current situation reminds me of the late 70's, when musclecars were just old gas guzzlers that nobody wanted and they were everywhere. Even into the 80s you could pick up a '69 Camaro for a grand, now they're $75K and people are restoring cars that 20 years ago wouldn't have even been considered for parts.

Old SSes and EMs, games most of us would have passed on at an auction for $50, are suddenly hard to find and most are getting restored. Better stock up while you can...