(Topic ID: 255826)

Bizarre Big Indian issue...


By EMsInKC

3 months ago



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  • 17 posts
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  • Latest reply 3 months ago by EMsInKC
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0Big-Indian-Work-09 (resized).jpg
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#1 3 months ago

I'm having a really bizarre problem with my Big Indian that I'm restoring. I've bounced this off Mike O and pinhead52 and they're about as stumped as I am. Maybe someone else will have some ideas.

When I got the game it wasn't working, so I've gone through every relay and switch like I normally do. I don't have a ton of experience with player units so I want to make sure I have it back together correctly and also see if you can figure this issue.

What is happening is the game won't reset correctly. I've got a few reels that just won't reset no matter what I do. They all work almost correctly in normal play but reset is a different issue. I'm pretty sure I have all the switches on the reels correct. At 0 all switches are open. At 1 the inside and outside switches close and the middle switch which is the 9 position switch is open. At 9 they are all closed. I've checked all those and they are all correct. I understand the operation of reset. The Z2 energizes and resets the 3 and 4 player. When all those switches open it's supposed to drop out and Z1 energizes and resets 1 and 2. It drops and trip bank resets and the ball is shot up to the shooter lane.

I've checked all the switches on Z1 and Z2 and I've got 8 n/o and 1 n/c like they should be. It seems to me that if I press in harder on the armature then all the reels will reset so maybe I just need to re-gap a bit. But that's not my main issue.

The main issue is that all four reels have an issue where all the reels are carrying over properly except 1000s. What happens is that 1000 will increment properly until it turns over to 11000. So it will say go 5000 to 10000 to 11000 with no issue. When it goes to 12000 both the 1000 and the 10000 reels turn together. And this is on all four players so it can't just be a switch on one reel. Whenever I have this issue with a multiplayer I immediately suspect the player unit.

Here's what I have with the player unit. At ball 1 player 1 the inside switch stack is closed and the outer stack which is P5 has P5A closed which is correct according to the schematic. The ball in play shows 1 on the glass which is also correct. At this point the orientation of the wiper arm is at about 11 o'clock. The outside two fingers that are tied together are on rivets and the single finger which is from what I can determine the ball in play finger is on a rivet with 1 showing. If I step the unit four times I go to ball two. On the opposite side of the wiper arm there are two fingers which are tied together which seems to be correct.

Anyone have any ideas here? If it would help I can email you a short video to show you what is happening. I also want to point out that when the 1000s and 10000s reels are rolling together Z1 and Z2 are energizing which should never happen unless SB1 switch is closed, which it is not. I've checked that over and over. And if it was closed then this would happen with every reel and it is not. The game acts like it is trying to reset when it shouldn't.

I'm lost. Help!

#2 3 months ago

rolf_martin_062 any ideas?

#3 3 months ago

Is this happening before or after the reset has completed?

If it before the reset is complete. Check if you have a 1000 pt switch closed that might be trying to add 1000. or cause the 1000 point score to pull. Do you have a schematic snippets for the reset and 1000 pt scoring?

I had this happen on regular play went from 2 to 3. Check the 9/0 leaf switch and make sure the arm is in between the two sets. I had one case where they were both on the same side.

At the time I was working on a single player game.

20191118_175038 (resized).jpg
#4 3 months ago

It won't reset.

I know it's not reel switches because it happens on all four reels and the switches are all adjusted correctly.

I can set all reels at 0 and start player 1 ball 1 and when the reel gets past 11000 the 1000s and 10000s roll together. Advance to each player in turn and same thing.

#5 3 months ago

Hi EMsInKC +
a bizarre problem in Your pin - unfortunately I do not understand Your description. Early in post-1 You write "What is happening is the game wont reset correctly" --- and later on +/- "The main issue is carry-over (once gotten over 10'000, 11'000) - "I guess when playing,making points (?)" - the 1000ds and faulty also 10'000ds Score-Drum step --- happens on all four players".
Shall we chase an "Game start / resetting fault" --- or "faulty stepped 10'000ds Score-Drum when playing a ball - making 1000 points" ?

To "faulty stepped 10'000ds Score-Drum when playing a ball - making 1000 points" - I believe You know all of this - see the JPG - The Big Indian has no targets etc. worth 10'000 points - the pin has some "worth 1000 points stuff" --- the L-1000-Points-Relay now and then actuates. Every time the L-Relay actuates: Switch encircled-green closes to make a 1000d-ds Score-Drum to step - also (every time) the L-Relay actuates. The Switch encircled-orange closes to eventually make a 10'000ds Score-Drum to step --- what 10'000ds Drum eventually actuates depends on what switch on the switchstacks on top of the cams on the Player-Unit is closed (P1A, P2A, P3A, P4A) --- 10'000ds Drum eventually or really step --- this depends on Position-9-Switch on a Score-Drum.

Did You buy the pin wih this fault - a preowner has worked on the Score-Drums - made a fault on a 9-pos-switch - then duplicated the same fault on the rest of the 10'000ds Score-Drums ? Greetings Rolf

0Big-Indian-Work-08 (resized).jpg
#6 3 months ago

OK let me try and describe the issues here again.

1. It will not reset. Even if I start with all 0 on players 3 and 4, with all reel switches open, Z2 is still pulling in and not releasing. If Z2 does not release Z1 can never engage.

2. I can start with all score reels at zero with the player unit at player 1 ball 1. In that position all P1 switches on the player unit are closed. If I add 10s or 100s to the reels, it works correctly. If I add 1000s, it will work correctly until the reels get to 11000. When I try to go to 12000 by adding another 1000, both reels turn together. When that happens, both Z1 and Z2 are pulsing. That should never happen (and doesn't when adding 10s or 100s, or 1000s until you get to 11000. After that it does. Z1 and Z2 are energized by a combination of closed switches on the score reels and a switch on SB1 which is the reset relay on the trip bank. After Z2 completes reset of players 3 and 4 it drops and Z1 energizes. Once Z1 drops the U relay resets the trip bank and the ball is shot to the shooter lane.

This same thing happens on all four players and on all balls. You can step the player unit around and it changes players and balls correctly but the problem occurs every time.

On every reel I have switch settings as all switches open at 0, inside and outside switches closed at 1-8, with the middle switch which is the 9 position open, and then all switches closed at 9. I have checked for solder bombs, stray wires, bent solder tabs, you name it. All switches on SB1 and SB2 are correct, cleaned and adjusted.

I'm sure unless someone comes up with something in the end I'll break everything down and put the lightboard and the motor board on the bench where I can get a better look at everything.

The game was non operating when I got it so I don't know if this problem was there or not.

#7 3 months ago

Hi EMsInKC
thanks for the description (post-6). On one side of the coil on Z2-Relay are soldered-on two wires of color-black. On the other side of the coil is soldered-on a wire-color-SL-WH. When You unsolder the wire-SL-WH (and tape the free end of the wire) away from the solder-lug on the coil - have some points on the Score-Drums of Player-1 and Player-2 - start a new game - the Z2-Relay is put out of order - does the Z1-Relay pulls-in and makes the Score-Drums of Player-1 and -2 reset - then Z1-Relay quits pulling ? Then play through the balls - the Z1-Relay should stay non-pulling. Greetings Rolf

#8 3 months ago

Hi EMsInKC
towards the end of start / resetting the Control-Bank must reset --- so SB1 / SB2 do reset --- a switch on SB1 opens and cuts connection to coils on Z1- and Z2-Relay. Greetings Rolf

#9 3 months ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi EMsInKC
towards the end of start / resetting the Control-Bank must reset --- so SB1 / SB2 do reset --- a switch on SB1 opens and cuts connection to coils on Z1- and Z2-Relay. Greetings Rolf

U relay does that job.

I'll try the coil idea and see what happens

#10 3 months ago

If you are looking for frayed wires or solder bomb I would focus on SL-YEL and WH-RED. If they are connected you could see this issue.

When both reels are at 0 no issue.
When 1000 goes 1 no issue (but a circuit is primed for the next 1000).
The next score will cause both to step together.

One way to test. is to have them all at zero and disconnect WH-RED from one 10,000 score reel. and score 1000 points a few times.

This would impact all 4 players because these wires are common to all players.

#11 3 months ago

Also, we need a pic of the player unit at p1 ball 1 to make sure the wiper is oriented right...

#12 3 months ago
Quoted from ArgosySK:

If you are looking for frayed wires or solder bomb I would focus on SL-YEL and WH-RED. If they are connected you could see this issue.
When both reels are at 0 no issue.
When 1000 goes 1 no issue (but a circuit is primed for the next 1000).
The next score will cause both to step together.
One way to test. is to have them all at zero and disconnect WH-RED from one 10,000 score reel. and score 1000 points a few times.
This would impact all 4 players because these wires are common to all players.

I can try this. At this point I'll try about anything.

Quoted from pinhead52:

Also, we need a pic of the player unit at p1 ball 1 to make sure the wiper is oriented right...

I'll get one. At this point the wiper is at about 11 o'clock. The single wiper finger is on the first rivet and the connected wiper fingers above it are also on rivets.

#13 3 months ago

Hi EMsInKC
the schematics are drawn (switches drawn open or drawn closed) "a One-Player-Game has been started - reset has been done (so in the end of the resetting the Control-Bank has also been resetted) - ball is kicked over to the shooter alley - THEN the pin is toggled-off / 110VAC-Line-Cord unplugged". See the JPG - encircled green is the path to step the Player-Unit (in the end of resetting stuff) to its Home-Position - then the Control-Bank is resetted - the switch "encircled green, encircled orange opens. Encircled orange is the path for to activate the Z1- and Z2-Relays (for to reset the Score-Drums).
I do not understand the first sentence in Your post-9 "U-Relay does the job". Greetings Rolf

0Big-Indian-Work-09 (resized).jpg
#14 3 months ago

Shorted contacts at the back of the 1000 point relay is my guess.

#15 3 months ago

OK, I did a bit more on this.

I disconnected the coil on Z2, made sure points were on players 1 and 2, and reset. The reels reset fine. However, in playing it still was rolling the two reels together. Z1 would pulse on the 1000s relays being energized.

I disconnected the WH-Red wire on the switches of 1000s reel player 1. That stopped the reels rolling together, but it won't reset properly now due to that switch being disconnected.

The player unit is stepping properly on reset and stops in the correct P1 B1 position.

I also noticed that at times reels for other players were rolling when I was on player 1.

This is a real mess. I've never seen anything quite like it. I've put the game back in the corner and going to move on to another game I'm working on. It's just too frustrating to mess with right now. As I said before I'm pretty sure it will come down to removing the lightboard and motorboard from the game and putting them on the bench to go through it all again. I've never had these kinds of problems restoring a game and it just reminded me why I've always been reluctant to restore four players.

#16 3 months ago

Don’t let it get to you, Scott. This is no reason to swear off 4 player games.

Let me know when you get everything back out and I’d be happy to stop by and put another set of eyes on it with you.

#17 3 months ago
Quoted from MikeO:

Don’t let it get to you, Scott. This is no reason to swear off 4 player games.
Let me know when you get everything back out and I’d be happy to stop by and put another set of eyes on it with you.

Thanks Mike, I always appreciate your support. This one is just frustrating. The thing about EMs is when all switches are right the game should work right, so this is one of those "there's something small causing this issue that isn't readily visible" deals.

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