(Topic ID: 165146)

Bigfoot - new rules for Whitewater with freewpc

By aeneas

5 years ago


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  • Latest reply 32 days ago by dsuperbee
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#1 5 years ago

I've been busy the last months with freewpc working on new rules for Whitewater.

Why whitewater ? Not because the original rules are bad, but just because I wanted to play around with freewpc and Whitewater is the only wpc-89 game I own..

This is a work in progress !!

I've started this topic so other people can test it and give feedback. It's definitely not finished (and am not sure when it'll be..).
Don't take this post as a public release yet - it's more that I am looking for beta testers, feedback on the rules, more help (anyone wants to do graphics ?) ..

I'm looking for positive feedback - what can be done to improve it, what is your opinion of the rules (scoring needs more balancing), specific changes (play a sound or let a flasher flash at a certain time, ..)
Don't tell me it's not finished or doesn't look professional enough - I know that.

I've been busy for about 3 months with this on my own and getting a bit tired of working on it alone. I'd like some feedback.
At this moment I even need a name for the wizard mode (and no, not vacation jackpot) so ideas for that are welcome.
Feedback on the rules are also welcome.. I implemented some rules but things like the wizard/wetwilly can be still changed, these I have hardly tested and played myself. I just finished the stacking of modes but even these things can change (although some changes are not easy)..

The latest build can be found at:
http://www.flippers.be/temp/ww_l5.zip

This version may change every few days, depending on the feedback I get, if I have time to program/test things, ..
and sometimes when I implement something it makes the rom crash.. I will try to always upload a version that I tested and is stable but I can't guarantee anything..

Note it's still very early in development.
- If you want to play with it in visual pinball then please do.
- If you have an eprom burner and want to test it in your machine, you can. I test it also on my machine, I haven't had problems (no burnt coils, ..) but it's at your own risk. Make sure all your switches work as there's no switch compensation implemented.
- If you need to pay someone to burn it on an eprom for you - then please wait a few months until there's a more stable and finished version.

Some things aren't implemented (topper lamps), not even all modes are completely tested, ..

NOTE: the first time you run this, freewpc will ask you to confirm by pressing enter a few times. This works ok in a real machine.
In a visual pinball setup - first time run only vpinmame with setting 'skip startup test' disabled. Then confirm these warning messages.
Then you are able to run it in visual pinball and the rom will start correct.

Overview of the rules :

Bigfoot does not divert the pinball into whirlpool unless wpool is lit for a mode
Hit 2 bigfoot targets to light bigfoot cave and start cave hurryup
Bigfoot cave when lit awards 250k + item : flashlight, key, camera, map at 5, cow at 20
todo? when camera collected - spot bigfoot in different locations

cave hurryup: countdown from 1M to 250K in 10 seconds, shoot cave/wpool to collect

mapmode: started in whirlpool after map is collected in cave
map is shown on display, with bigfoot hiding in a random location
make 5 shots, 3 hazards on lower pf decide path to follow (left, middle, right), try to reach the X in 5 shots
todo: play and test - remove middle shot and start with 2 instead of 3 ?

combos: ramp to rapids and then no way out or disaster drop for 3, or pass to right flipper and repeat ramp to rapids for 4combo
repeating boomerang bend shot
repeating disasterdrop shot 3x awards hazard or 1M
todo? more combos

jet bumper hits increase riverclass (count resets at start of ball)
jet area border switches change to next wpool mode
riverclass = bonus multiplier and score of bumpers

no way out locks balls - hit green targets first (increases with nr of mb played), lock 3 balls for multiball
multiball: 3 ball mb, hit upper main ramp for jackpot, hit at beginning for double/triple jackpot, hit bigfoot targets to light bigfoot for jackpot

lostmine: starts goldrush when key is awarded from cave and minimum 2 lostmine entries, then restarts every 3 lostmine entries, else starts boulder bash
goldrush: 2ball mb frenzy, everything 25K, shoot moving lit lamp for 1M
boulder bash: timed mode, 20 seconds, jet score extra 250K+50Kxtimes bash started

multimillion: left ramp shot, repeat within 5 seconds, 1M and increases up to 5M per shot

red targets: any red tgt hit will light next unlit tgt
hitting red target advances wpool mode
complete 3 to relight kickback, when kb already lit then score 250k

skillshot:
-falls ramp scores 1M X nr skillshot made, and each shot during game will score 50K * skillshot
-bigfoot ramp scores 1M X nr skillshot made, and each shot during game will score 50K * skillshot + light cave
-let go to right inlane and shoot no way out to start quickmb
quick mb: 2 ball mb, every hazard scores 10K first, shoot all hazards for score multiplier, until 100K per shot max

rafts: increase rafts by shooting lit hazards, until wetwilly is reached
shoot only lit hazards (except nowayout) to score a perfect path (triple raft score) and spot bigfoot
secret passage counts as perfect shot
make 2 perfect rafts to light dam mode
river hurryup starts when raft increases (from hazard - not from secret pass or wpool)

river hurryup: 10 seconds, shoot lit river targets, one letter dims every 2 sec
value increases from 250K to 1M

dam mode: start at wpool, hit 5 river targets in time to break dam, 3 sec ballsaver at start
each lit rivertarget scores 250K, 1M when completed in time

wetwilly: starts as timed mode: for each raft (8 shots) shoot random lit hazard in time, when all done then every hz lit for jackpot
* 20 seconds at start 5 seconds added per shot made

flipper buttons move lit inlane l/r
lit inlanes add a river letter
river targets: complete letters to light wpool

shoot lit whirlpool to start whirlpool mode:
-wpool challenge: 2 ball mb, shoot wpool for jackpot increasing from 1 until 10 mill
hit bigft tgts to score a double jp

-5xfun:
v1: 30 seconds score*5, can be stacked
v2: 2ball mb - every hz starts at 1mil, increases with each shot until 5m max for each shot

-man overboard: shoot one specific hazard in time. when flashlight found then hz is lit, else everything is dark but audio cues (left/right) and only lower pf hz

-mystery: starts waterfall mode
TODO add other random modes/points ? start dam mode ?

-extra ball

wizard mode: complete wet willy, class 6, finish wpool, play mapmode, lock 3 balls => wizardmode (TODO new name and not vacation !)
starts with 8 levels to do:
1- wake up bigfoot : shoot 2 white tgts
2- visit cave
3- 2x disdrop
4- 20 bumper hits
5- complete red tgts
6- 2 spine chillers in time (=mmil)
7- spine chill to wpool
8- 2x no way out to rapids
once finished:
3 ball mb, (everything scores 20K, hazards 1M TODO)

Stacking:
- jets /riverclass increase always
- redtgt always enable kickback
- rivertgt hits count during river hurryup and dam mode (but don't light lamp)
- can't lock balls (start mball/quickmb/wetwilly) when a multiball is running
- wpool award / dam / map : only in raftmode, not in wpchall, not in multiball
- hazards/rafts continue during wpool challenge, multiball

- no stacking during:
- quickmb
- wp manoverb
- dam
- goldrush
- waterfall
- wp5x2
- wetwilly
- wizard

#2 5 years ago

Definitely interested. I will be following.

#3 5 years ago

Looks cool.

#4 5 years ago

Neato mosquito.

#5 5 years ago

Wow

#6 5 years ago

Serious undertaking man. Bravo

#7 5 years ago

Amazing. Can't wait to see video of this in action!

#8 5 years ago

Sounds great. I might be interested in some testing once my boards get back from Coinop Cauldron. I know the current ruleset pretty well. I think there are some common sense things that should be rectified.

#9 5 years ago

Whitewater is a great fun game already, but to play it under different rules? Definitely cool, and if it's just swapping the rom, you can have almost 2 games in one physical spot. Will be watching for release updates. No Eprom burner so would have to have it made. Kepp up the development!

#10 5 years ago

I like it!

3 weeks later
#11 5 years ago

How is this going?

#12 5 years ago

Didn't have any time to continue working, just started a new job.
I'll probably continue in a month or two..
But no one contacted me to help testing / give feedback so if I need to do it all myself it'll take a long time..

#13 5 years ago
Quoted from aeneas:

Didn't have any time to continue working, just started a new job.
I'll probably continue in a month or two..
But no one contacted me to help testing / give feedback so if I need to do it all myself it'll take a long time..

I probably shouldn't volunteer someone's name without their knowledge, but I suspect StashKid (pinball streamer) would be eager to try it out if he can get a ROM burnt locally ... he has a WH2O, loves it and it'd be good stream content. I'll point him to this post.

Obviously you'd also be able to watch the play, if he did do it, too.

6 months later
#14 4 years ago

Bump

8 months later
#15 3 years ago

Any updates?

#16 3 years ago

No.. changed jobs, got married, had a baby, moved into a new house and am still unpacking (haven't played WW or any of my other machines in 6 months).
Maybe next year I'll have time to pick up this project and finish the code.

4 months later
#17 3 years ago

All good things!! Congrats with the family! Now it’s a good thing to fire up that programming skills again

Haha. Geintje natuurlijk maar zou wel leuk zijn!

#18 3 years ago

I was able last week to compile my code from last year again.. so may start again on this project
Updated the link in the first post here. If people want to test in visual pinball then let me know..

#19 3 years ago

Looking forward to it Aeneas! Still enjoy your Missing Mountain mod every day. Keep us posted

#20 3 years ago

Interested, will be checking for updates!

1 week later
#21 3 years ago

A nice little code mod would to have the starting mode radom!

3 months later
#22 3 years ago

I'd be more than willing to extensively play test upcoming ROMs on my machine and provide feedback IF the OP is still interested in finishing the code.

Cheers
Georg

1 year later
#23 1 year ago

Hey, just trying to get down my thoughts since you indicated you might be working on this again. I love the idea of making Bigfoot a larger focus on your version of the game. I'll start out by saying, I hope you don't take any of this as criticism. I'm just trying to take what you did and bounce some new ideas off of you. I'd be happy to discuss any of these ideas in more detail. Sometimes it makes perfect sense in my head, but when I try to write them out on paper they become more difficult to explain. Also there's a lot here so, deep breath, I'll just dive in.

Quoted from aeneas:

Bigfoot does not divert the pinball into whirlpool unless wpool is lit for a mode

This is great, keep the flow.

Quoted from aeneas:

Hit 2 bigfoot targets to light bigfoot cave and start cave hurryup
Bigfoot cave when lit awards 250k + item : flashlight, key, camera, map at 5, cow at 20
todo? when camera collected - spot bigfoot in different locations

Okay, so it makes sense that the bigfoot targets should somehow interact with bigfoot and Bigfoot Bluff. When you hit them maybe have bigfoot do his "uh-oh" noise or have his head spin. I would use these targets to award the items. If possible just the Map, Flashlight, and Camera. All those items are logical for a quest to find bigfoot, but I'm unsure how a Key would aid you in your quest. I like the idea of hitting the bigfoot targets to collect each item. When you collect the three items or, if that's not possible, just the Camera after six hits a new "Bigfoot Hunt" mode will start. In the mode you are trying to take a picture of bigfoot at the hazard locations. I would start with a single hazard arrow flashing. Every few seconds the insert flashes very quickly, signaling that bigfoot is about to move. Then the next insert starts flashing. If a player successfully shoots a flashing insert he collects the photograph and the corresponding insert remains lit for the remainder of the mode or subsequent playthroughs. The mode would be timed, so that near perfect shooting would allow the player to collect all of the photographs, but most players will require multiple playthroughs of the mode to collect all of the pictures. Pending testing, each subsequent playthough could require more shots to the bigfoot target to collect each item.

Quoted from aeneas:

cave hurryup: countdown from 1M to 250K in 10 seconds, shoot cave/wpool to collect

I prefer hurry-ups to start when a ball is fed cleanly back to a flipper. I'm not sure it's as clean to start it after hitting the hot foot target. I think there may be better ways to implement additional hurry-ups in some of your other modes.

Quoted from aeneas:

mapmode: started in whirlpool after map is collected in cave
map is shown on display, with bigfoot hiding in a random location
make 5 shots, 3 hazards on lower pf decide path to follow (left, middle, right), try to reach the X in 5 shots
todo: play and test - remove middle shot and start with 2 instead of 3 ?

I would prefer to use the items for the Bigfoot Hunt mode described above, but as with everything it's just my opinion.

Quoted from aeneas:

combos: ramp to rapids and then no way out or disaster drop for 3, or pass to right flipper and repeat ramp to rapids for 4combo
repeating boomerang bend shot
repeating disasterdrop shot 3x awards hazard or 1M
todo? more combos

With the first change the combo potential in the game are insane. I would probably just make it so that after any hazard shot you have X seconds to hit any additional hazard to continue the combo chain. To prevent unlimited combos of ramp to Bigfoot Bluff, I would make it so that hazards cannot be repeated in the same combo chain. The maximum combo would be all seven hazards.

Quoted from aeneas:

jet bumper hits increase riverclass (count resets at start of ball)
jet area border switches change to next wpool mode
riverclass = bonus multiplier and score of bumpers

I'm not sure I like that change. Having the pop bumpers change the modes works well. I think with the first change the ball going through Bigfoot's Cave more often will give player more opportunities to spot river letters through the in-lanes.

Quoted from aeneas:

no way out locks balls - hit green targets first (increases with nr of mb played), lock 3 balls for multiball
multiball: 3 ball mb, hit upper main ramp for jackpot, hit at beginning for double/triple jackpot, hit bigfoot targets to light bigfoot for jackpot

I like the multiball the way it is, so I don't think many changes are necessary. I'm not sure it needs the secondary bigfoot jackpot. What I might add is the ability to lock balls into No Way Out and Lost Mine/Whirlpool. In order to do the latter, Bigfoot would need to divert the ball into the Whirlpool during multiball. Only one ball can be locked in each. So if a second ball is shot into No Way Out the first would be released. Any secondary balls shot to Bigfoot's Bluff would not be diverted into the Whirlpool. If one ball is held a shot to Insanity Falls would be a double jackpot. If two balls are locked it's a triple jackpot. I think you'd also want program things so that when any jackpots are collected all held balls are released, otherwise it would be too easy to collect multiple triple jackpots.

Quoted from aeneas:

lostmine: starts goldrush when key is awarded from cave and minimum 2 lostmine entries, then restarts every 3 lostmine entries, else starts boulder bash
goldrush: 2ball mb frenzy, everything 25K, shoot moving lit lamp for 1M

I'm not sure the Key, Lost Mine, or Gold Rush make as much thematic sense for a Bigfoot game, but I'm not against the Lost Mine being used for something. Maybe that becomes the Mystery with random awards. I don't think it should be a major part of the game though, because it's probably easier to luck into the Lost Cave then shooting it directly from the tip of the right flipper with skill.

Quoted from aeneas:

boulder bash: timed mode, 20 seconds, jet score extra 250K+50Kxtimes bash started

Pending what you decide with the Gold Rush, it might make sense to turn Boulder Bash into the two ball mutiball. The rules for Gold Rush, being based on switch hits, already encourages the player to hit the ball into the boulder pop bumpers. I'd just take the basic switch hit rules for Gold Rush and apply them to the Boulder Bash instead.

Quoted from aeneas:

multimillion: left ramp shot, repeat within 5 seconds, 1M and increases up to 5M per shot

Seems good.

Quoted from aeneas:

red targets: any red tgt hit will light next unlit tgt
hitting red target advances wpool mode
complete 3 to relight kickback, when kb already lit then score 250k

Not sure it needs to change the lit mode, but seems great.

Quoted from aeneas:

skillshot:
-falls ramp scores 1M X nr skillshot made, and each shot during game will score 50K * skillshot
-bigfoot ramp scores 1M X nr skillshot made, and each shot during game will score 50K * skillshot + light cave
-let go to right inlane and shoot no way out to start quickmb
quick mb: 2 ball mb, every hazard scores 10K first, shoot all hazards for score multiplier, until 100K per shot max

I like the idea of a progressive skill shot, perhaps Bigfoot's Cave (skillshot), Spine Chiller (double skillshot), and Insanity Falls (triple skillshot). I feel as though your quick multiball might be too easy. It feels as though nearly every game would start with multiball. Perhaps there could be a secret skillshot though that's just a fun easter egg. Maybe it that short plunge then not flipping until the ball reaches the lower right flipper and a direct shot to No Way Out or Lost Canyon for that cow award.

Quoted from aeneas:

rafts: increase rafts by shooting lit hazards, until wetwilly is reached
shoot only lit hazards (except nowayout) to score a perfect path (triple raft score) and spot bigfoot
secret passage counts as perfect shot

Advancing down the river should be a main focus of the game. I like the idea of a "perfect paddling" bonus for completing just the required lit hazards, but you would have to make sure that's possible since some hazards require going to the upper playfield and the shots that lead to the upper playfield might not be lit. Perhaps make the perfect paddling a small bonus to keep the main focus on advancing down the river. You can probably tell, I value simplicity.

Quoted from aeneas:

make 2 perfect rafts to light dam mode
river hurryup starts when raft increases (from hazard - not from secret pass or wpool)
river hurryup: 10 seconds, shoot lit river targets, one letter dims every 2 sec
value increases from 250K to 1M
dam mode: start at wpool, hit 5 river targets in time to break dam, 3 sec ballsaver at start
each lit rivertarget scores 250K, 1M when completed in time

Again, I don't really like starting a hurry-up unless the ball is being returned directly to a flipper. In this case it could literally be starting by any of the hazards. Perhaps add a new mode for reaching Class VI. I'm not sold on a dam mode, but I like the idea of using the river targets in a meaningful way during this mode. I think with some brainstorming we could come up with something pretty cool.

Quoted from aeneas:

wetwilly: starts as timed mode: for each raft (8 shots) shoot random lit hazard in time, when all done then every hz lit for jackpot
* 20 seconds at start 5 seconds added per shot made

This sounds fine. I guess my only suggestion would be to have the Bigfoot Hunt / Camera and Wet Willy be different. In one mode only one shot is flashing to start and in the other all shots are flashing to start. Either way you need to collect all the shots. I think it makes more thematic sense for Bigfoot to be moving, but as long as they are different, I think its fine.

Quoted from aeneas:

flipper buttons move lit inlane l/r

Good change. I like being able to move the lit inlane / outlane in either direction.

Quoted from aeneas:

lit inlanes add a river letter

It's printed on the playfield, so I feel like you have to keep it that way.

Quoted from aeneas:

river targets: complete letters to light wpool

Is this just for your Dam Mode or is this how you light the Whirlpool for all modes. I much prefer keeping Insanity Falls as the way to light the Whirlpool since that is what is printed on the playfield.

Quoted from aeneas:

shoot lit whirlpool to start whirlpool mode:
-wpool challenge: 2 ball mb, shoot wpool for jackpot increasing from 1 until 10 mill
hit bigft tgts to score a double jp

I don't feel as though the Bigfoot Targets are needed. It just seems to add unnecessary complication.

Quoted from aeneas:

-5xfun:
v1: 30 seconds score*5, can be stacked
v2: 2ball mb - every hz starts at 1mil, increases with each shot until 5m max for each shot

The insert is labeled "x5 Playfield" the rules should increase the playfield value x5.

Quoted from aeneas:

-man overboard: shoot one specific hazard in time. when flashlight found then hz is lit, else everything is dark but audio cues (left/right) and only lower pf hz

I'm personally not a huge fan of modes that are pure luck, like guess the random shot. Maybe this is your opportunity to use the river target as a hurry-up. The ball will be returning to the flippers and it makes sense that your man overboard is in the river.

Quoted from aeneas:

-mystery: starts waterfall mode

I love the idea of using the Mystery Canyon as it's own mode instead of the mystery "Spirit of the River". Since it's a labeled insert, I would still call the mode Mystery Canyon. Is there any aspect of the playfield that is both underutilized and fun to shoot? This would be another mode that could be brainstormed.

Quoted from aeneas:

TODO add other random modes/points ? start dam mode ?
-extra ball

Quoted from aeneas:

wizard mode: complete wet willy, class 6, finish wpool, play mapmode, lock 3 balls => wizardmode (TODO new name and not vacation !)
starts with 8 levels to do:
1- wake up bigfoot : shoot 2 white tgts
2- visit cave
3- 2x disdrop
4- 20 bumper hits
5- complete red tgts
6- 2 spine chillers in time (=mmil)
7- spine chill to wpool
8- 2x no way out to rapids
once finished:
3 ball mb, (everything scores 20K, hazards 1M TODO)

So with what I've described, I would probably have the requirements be:

1) Reach Wet Willie's
2) Reach Class VI
3) Start all boulder modes
4) Play the standard 3-ball multiball
5) Play the "Bigfoot Hunt" mode

I feel like doing all that would be a pretty solid game. Since it's a bigfoot game, I feel like bigfoot needs to go crazy during the wizard mode. My personal view on Wizard Modes is that they should feel like a reward. For me that would be something like a 2-multiball with an add-a-ball option. Maybe it's as simple as all hazards worth X-points, which are multiplied by the number of pictures you took during Bigfoot Hunt. Then have the Bigfoot Targets light Bigfoots Cave for your add-a-ball. Maybe have the add-a-ball active for a minute or two then that goes away so the game doesn't last for ever.

Quoted from aeneas:

Stacking:
- jets /riverclass increase always
- redtgt always enable kickback
- rivertgt hits count during river hurryup and dam mode (but don't light lamp)
- can't lock balls (start mball/quickmb/wetwilly) when a multiball is running
- wpool award / dam / map : only in raftmode, not in wpchall, not in multiball
- hazards/rafts continue during wpool challenge, multiball
- no stacking during:
- quickmb
- wp manoverb
- dam
- goldrush
- waterfall
- wp5x2
- wetwilly
- wizard

#24 1 year ago

Baby should be out of diapers by now.

#25 1 year ago
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

Baby should be out of diapers by now.

Sorry, it's a book. When the OP said he was interested in restarting the project my head started spinning. I decided to post here instead of the owners thread, but I had to start getting my ideas out of my head.

#26 1 year ago

I haven't worked on this in 3 years so it's still a baby :p

And this is the kind of feedback I want. This is the first time someone gave so much feedback and I appreciate it a lot.

My first rules were started as 'what can I do with this and change so it's not the original ruleset', but without a complete goal in mind.
After a few weeks of programming it was implemented and I can play things. Now I see how gameplay and strategy changed.
What I have noce is not all consistent or complete, and therefor I like the feedback.

#27 1 year ago
Quoted from aeneas:

I haven't worked on this in 3 years so it's still a baby :p
And this is the kind of feedback I want. This is the first time someone gave so much feedback and I appreciate it a lot.
My first rules were started as 'what can I do with this and change so it's not the original ruleset', but without a complete goal in mind.
After a few weeks of programming it was implemented and I can play things. Now I see how gameplay and strategy changed.
What I have noce is not all consistent or complete, and therefor I like the feedback.

When you are ready for some testing, let me know. I haven't used Virtual Pinball for awhile, but I'll figure it out.

#28 1 year ago

Hi,

Thanks for all your feedback, I really appreciate it. This is exactly what I want, some other ideas and opinion.

First some general answer to your remarks:
While you say some features in WW are good and want to leave them, my goal was to change the rules. Not just have a 95% copy of how WW plays with only some small changes. That wouldn't be worth all the hours of work. I wanted to see what I could do with this layout.

The 'problem' is that WW's rules are already good. And I'm bound by the playfield layout and inserts, and by the available sounds.
In the cactus canyon rom there are a lot of unused sounds, but in most other games all sounds available are used somewhere in the existing rules.
That limits the creativity. I first thought of having different modes each time you complete a raft, but ideally then you need different music to play.
So this changed into the river hurryup after each raft.
The samples 'here's a map', 'here's a key', 'this door is locked' are available, so it would be dumb not to implement them somewhere and make a mode to use them.

The code and rules grew organically - first simple things like multimillion and bigfoot targets, and then things got added and added when I had an idea or wanted to try if something worked well or not.
The made the code is a bit a mess (not always clear or easy to check what things can run together). Now I'm at a point that I should take the time to re-write a part of what rules get triggered when and have a clear goal of what all the rules are.

> I like the idea of hitting the bigfoot targets to collect each item. When you collect the three items or, if that's not possible, just the Camera after six hits a new "Bigfoot Hunt" mode will start.

To collect an item you need to shoot the bigfoot targets and get the hurryup in bigfoots cave.
I could ditch the hurryup. You need to hit the bigfoot targets enough (first 2 times, then 3, ..) and then just shoot the cave during gameplay to collect an item.
Problem is, ideally then you have a flashing insert to indicate something is available in the cave. I can work around that and when you qualify the bigfoot targets, it shows on the dmd a message to pick up something in the cave and flash the cave flasher.

> In the mode you are trying to take a picture of bigfoot at the hazard locations. I would start with a single hazard arrow flashing. Every few seconds the insert flashes very quickly, signaling that bigfoot is about to move. Then the next insert starts flashing. If a player successfully shoots a flashing insert he collects the photograph and the corresponding insert remains lit for the remainder of the mode or subsequent playthroughs. The mode would be timed, so that near perfect shooting would allow the player to collect all of the photographs, but most players will require multiple playthroughs of the mode to collect all of the pictures. Pending testing, each subsequent playthough could require more shots to the bigfoot target to collect each item.

That's about what I had first in mind. The global goal of the game is not to advance rafts but to search bigfoot - and take pictures (once you've collected the camera somehow). For each raft insert you could keep track if the player found bigfoot. Problem here is you need to collect the camera first somehow (so you would probably not get it on raft 2 and 4).. so this got changed into the perfect raft idea.

But I really want to get that idea of finding bigfoot more prominent in the rules.
I thought of showing him random on the dmd and start a hurryup but then you need either a specific camera target (could be the bigfoot targets) or indeed have the player shoot the correct hazard.

Quick mb was dropped as it makes the skillshot too easy.

> I prefer hurry-ups to start when a ball is fed cleanly back to a flipper. I'm not sure it's as clean to start it after hitting the hot foot target.
> I think there may be better ways to implement additional hurry-ups in some of your other modes.

I agree but there are not really many options to lock a ball in WW (only central lock) or return it clean to a flipper (upper playfield).
Having to shoot the lock to start a hurryup doesn't work well with other rules.
Having the bigfoot hideout as goal to shoot when the ball just came off the upper playfield also looks like you have to make the same shot again (shoot upper playfield).

I did change the timing as now it indeed starts suddenly - now it's 30 seconds in total, first 10 at 1 mil, then 10 seconds countdown, and then 10 seconds at lowest value.

> With the first change the combo potential in the game are insane.

Combos now were just an afterthought, I've added something just to have them..

> Pending what you decide with the Gold Rush,

I really like my gold rush mode
It is't explained but it uses all the targets so it's like a square, a few are lit and rotate along with the music and you have to hit the lit target to score.
It's a bit like an amusement park skillgame.

> Advancing down the river should be a main focus of the game.

No, that was in the original WW rules and it still is in mine but I want to make it about finding bigfoot.

> Is this just for your Dam Mode or is this how you light the Whirlpool for all modes.

to light all modes.

> The insert is labeled "x5 Playfield" the rules should increase the playfield value x5.

Well that's what I really want to change. In WW now the only strategy to score high is to get 5x together with multiball and get 100mil jackpots.
That 's too unbalanced. I haven't implemented a 100 mil shot now and feel like only keeping that if you get the wizard mode.
Now you need to use the whole playfield more and scoring is balanced.
Thats also why I like that you have to shoot the popbumpers more in my rules. In WW you can mostly ignore the pops.

> I'm personally not a huge fan of modes that are pure luck, like guess the random shot.

Man overboard when you haven't found the flashlight is not really pure luck. It's on of the 4 hazards on the lower playfield and bigfoot will also rotate his head in the direction of what shot it needs to be.

#29 1 year ago

What would really be good is if there was some way to choose between "original" rules and your "new" rules (either at startup, or as an adjustment setting).

I love Whitewater "as is", but also wouldn't mind trying something new. However, changing ROMs back and forth is just asking for something to break eventually. Can the MPU board handle a larger ROM if needed?

Having written more than my share of ROM based video games, I would imagine that the vast majority of the ROM is taken with images and not the actual code.

Is the code done in straight assembly, or is it written in C?

#30 1 year ago

Put a ZIF socket in your game or stack two roms and put a switch to choose between them. People for that all the time in the 80s with home computer alternate roms.

#31 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

Put a ZIF socket in your game or stack two roms and put a switch to choose between them. People for that all the time in the 80s with home computer alternate roms.

Well, that would be better than swapping ROMS, but not much. Ideally something that would let you choose on game start (or at least on bootup) would be better.

Maybe if the Start button is pressed while booting you load the new rules and if not, load the original rules.

#32 1 year ago

You could built some kind of external circuit to do this... changing it in software might be a real bear. WPC games have fixed lowrom and highrom areas, and a big set of bank switched areas in the middle. You'd need some kind of monitor that always loads at boot, then changes whatever rom into fooling the machine that it's the ONLY rom installed. Otherwise you have a big mess in the software, APPL and FreeWPC are going to conflict, so you can't even manually tell Free WPC to use unused bank switches areas when it compiles.

Not to say that it couldn't be done, but it's a lot of work for a little convenience. If I absolutely wanted to move back and forth between romsets without opening the head, I'd probably run a very short wire toggling the 2 roms (which would either be in an adapter board or true 80s style, stacked on top of one another and soldered together with the enable pins separate) to a switch that unobtrusively is sticking out of the head.

There's a big issue with doing the switch anyway, unless the nvram is exactly the same between the versions, it's going to reset when you move from one to the other.

1 month later
#33 1 year ago

Today i tried the current rom from http://www.flippers.be/temp/ww_l5.zip in my (real) WH2O, but the DMD didnt show anything.
To prevent any hardware-damage i turned it off without further tests.
It works in PinMame, so any idea why it doesnt on the real machine?
(Of course i verified the rom before using it)

#34 1 year ago

How do you get Bigfoot to activate during gameplay? What shot does it?

#35 1 year ago
Quoted from drgary:

Today i tried the current rom from http://www.flippers.be/temp/ww_l5.zip in my (real) WH2O, but the DMD didnt show anything.
To prevent any hardware-damage i turned it off without further tests.
It works in PinMame, so any idea why it doesnt on the real machine?
(Of course i verified the rom before using it)

Hi,

No sorry I can't help you.
I tested it in my own machine years ago when I started this project, to verify all coils were working and had the correct strength.
Haven't tested it since in a real machine.
The first time you install a freewpc rom it'll reset everything and give a warning message that it's all on your own risk, you have to confirm it twice with the enter button. After doing this once, the next time it'll boot up without warning message.

I don't know much about the freewpc kernel and what causes problems.
I'm even not sure against what version the rom on my website is compiled now - it can be my fork (which is a mix that I made of Brians last code and changes that James C made for his Demolition Man rom), but it can also be the master or 1.0 branch, as I've tested them all to check if it solved a bug..

A few months ago I tried to continue working on this - set up the development environment on my new computer, visual pinball, ..
The rom has a bug - it often crashes but semi-random. It's either when a ball is locked (can be 1st, 2nd or 3rd) or sometimes when a ball drains.
Problem is that I'm not sure what causes this - it can be somewhere in my code but it can also be that the freewpc code for locks/devices isn't stable.
I've spent a few days testing but didn't find a solution and have given up.

I don't have time (or the knowledge) to continue working on this. And as no-one else is busy with freewpc I think we can say that freewpc is a dead project..

#36 1 year ago
Quoted from aeneas:

Hi,
No sorry I can't help you.
I tested it in my own machine years ago when I started this project, to verify all coils were working and had the correct strength.
Haven't tested it since in a real machine.
I don't know much about the freewpc kernel and what causes problems.
I'm even not sure against what version the rom on my website is compiled now - it can be my fork (which is a mix that I made of Brians last code and changes that James C made for his Demolition Man rom), but it can also be the master or 1.0 branch, as I've tested them all to check if it solved a bug..
A few months ago I tried to continue working on this - set up the development environment on my new computer, visual pinball, ..
The rom has a bug - it often crashes but semi-random. It's either when a ball is locked (can be 1st, 2nd or 3rd) or sometimes when a ball drains.
Problem is that I'm not sure what causes this - it can be somewhere in my code but it can also be that the freewpc code for locks/devices isn't stable.
I've spent a few days testing but didn't find a solution and have given up.
I don't have time (or the knowledge) to continue working on this. And as no-one else is busy with freewpc or it's kernel I think we can say that freewpc is a dead project..

Sounds like bug hunting a grain of sand on a beach. Thank you for your contribution to the freewpc community.
Perhaps you could post the sourcecode in case someone wants to give it a try and continue the project or use it for other projects.

#37 1 year ago

think bride of pinbot 2.0

#38 1 year ago
Quoted from ccbiggsoo7:

think bride of pinbot 2.0

Ouch

1 week later
#39 1 year ago

You’ve got some great ideas here and I’d be excited to give it a whirl if you ever complete it!

2 months later
#40 1 year ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

Hey, just trying to get down my thoughts since you indicated you might be working on this again. I love the idea of making Bigfoot a larger focus on your version of the game. I'll start out by saying, I hope you don't take any of this as criticism. I'm just trying to take what you did and bounce some new ideas off of you. I'd be happy to discuss any of these ideas in more detail. Sometimes it makes perfect sense in my head, but when I try to write them out on paper they become more difficult to explain. Also there's a lot here so, deep breath, I'll just dive in.

This is great, keep the flow.

Okay, so it makes sense that the bigfoot targets should somehow interact with bigfoot and Bigfoot Bluff. When you hit them maybe have bigfoot do his "uh-oh" noise or have his head spin. I would use these targets to award the items. If possible just the Map, Flashlight, and Camera. All those items are logical for a quest to find bigfoot, but I'm unsure how a Key would aid you in your quest. I like the idea of hitting the bigfoot targets to collect each item. When you collect the three items or, if that's not possible, just the Camera after six hits a new "Bigfoot Hunt" mode will start. In the mode you are trying to take a picture of bigfoot at the hazard locations. I would start with a single hazard arrow flashing. Every few seconds the insert flashes very quickly, signaling that bigfoot is about to move. Then the next insert starts flashing. If a player successfully shoots a flashing insert he collects the photograph and the corresponding insert remains lit for the remainder of the mode or subsequent playthroughs. The mode would be timed, so that near perfect shooting would allow the player to collect all of the photographs, but most players will require multiple playthroughs of the mode to collect all of the pictures. Pending testing, each subsequent playthough could require more shots to the bigfoot target to collect each item.

I prefer hurry-ups to start when a ball is fed cleanly back to a flipper. I'm not sure it's as clean to start it after hitting the hot foot target. I think there may be better ways to implement additional hurry-ups in some of your other modes.

I would prefer to use the items for the Bigfoot Hunt mode described above, but as with everything it's just my opinion.

With the first change the combo potential in the game are insane. I would probably just make it so that after any hazard shot you have X seconds to hit any additional hazard to continue the combo chain. To prevent unlimited combos of ramp to Bigfoot Bluff, I would make it so that hazards cannot be repeated in the same combo chain. The maximum combo would be all seven hazards.

I'm not sure I like that change. Having the pop bumpers change the modes works well. I think with the first change the ball going through Bigfoot's Cave more often will give player more opportunities to spot river letters through the in-lanes.

I like the multiball the way it is, so I don't think many changes are necessary. I'm not sure it needs the secondary bigfoot jackpot. What I might add is the ability to lock balls into No Way Out and Lost Mine/Whirlpool. In order to do the latter, Bigfoot would need to divert the ball into the Whirlpool during multiball. Only one ball can be locked in each. So if a second ball is shot into No Way Out the first would be released. Any secondary balls shot to Bigfoot's Bluff would not be diverted into the Whirlpool. If one ball is held a shot to Insanity Falls would be a double jackpot. If two balls are locked it's a triple jackpot. I think you'd also want program things so that when any jackpots are collected all held balls are released, otherwise it would be too easy to collect multiple triple jackpots.

I'm not sure the Key, Lost Mine, or Gold Rush make as much thematic sense for a Bigfoot game, but I'm not against the Lost Mine being used for something. Maybe that becomes the Mystery with random awards. I don't think it should be a major part of the game though, because it's probably easier to luck into the Lost Cave then shooting it directly from the tip of the right flipper with skill.

Pending what you decide with the Gold Rush, it might make sense to turn Boulder Bash into the two ball mutiball. The rules for Gold Rush, being based on switch hits, already encourages the player to hit the ball into the boulder pop bumpers. I'd just take the basic switch hit rules for Gold Rush and apply them to the Boulder Bash instead.

Seems good.

Not sure it needs to change the lit mode, but seems great.

I like the idea of a progressive skill shot, perhaps Bigfoot's Cave (skillshot), Spine Chiller (double skillshot), and Insanity Falls (triple skillshot). I feel as though your quick multiball might be too easy. It feels as though nearly every game would start with multiball. Perhaps there could be a secret skillshot though that's just a fun easter egg. Maybe it that short plunge then not flipping until the ball reaches the lower right flipper and a direct shot to No Way Out or Lost Canyon for that cow award.

Advancing down the river should be a main focus of the game. I like the idea of a "perfect paddling" bonus for completing just the required lit hazards, but you would have to make sure that's possible since some hazards require going to the upper playfield and the shots that lead to the upper playfield might not be lit. Perhaps make the perfect paddling a small bonus to keep the main focus on advancing down the river. You can probably tell, I value simplicity.

Again, I don't really like starting a hurry-up unless the ball is being returned directly to a flipper. In this case it could literally be starting by any of the hazards. Perhaps add a new mode for reaching Class VI. I'm not sold on a dam mode, but I like the idea of using the river targets in a meaningful way during this mode. I think with some brainstorming we could come up with something pretty cool.

This sounds fine. I guess my only suggestion would be to have the Bigfoot Hunt / Camera and Wet Willy be different. In one mode only one shot is flashing to start and in the other all shots are flashing to start. Either way you need to collect all the shots. I think it makes more thematic sense for Bigfoot to be moving, but as long as they are different, I think its fine.

Good change. I like being able to move the lit inlane / outlane in either direction.

It's printed on the playfield, so I feel like you have to keep it that way.

Is this just for your Dam Mode or is this how you light the Whirlpool for all modes. I much prefer keeping Insanity Falls as the way to light the Whirlpool since that is what is printed on the playfield.

I don't feel as though the Bigfoot Targets are needed. It just seems to add unnecessary complication.

The insert is labeled "x5 Playfield" the rules should increase the playfield value x5.

I'm personally not a huge fan of modes that are pure luck, like guess the random shot. Maybe this is your opportunity to use the river target as a hurry-up. The ball will be returning to the flippers and it makes sense that your man overboard is in the river.

I love the idea of using the Mystery Canyon as it's own mode instead of the mystery "Spirit of the River". Since it's a labeled insert, I would still call the mode Mystery Canyon. Is there any aspect of the playfield that is both underutilized and fun to shoot? This would be another mode that could be brainstormed.

So with what I've described, I would probably have the requirements be:
1) Reach Wet Willie's
2) Reach Class VI
3) Start all boulder modes
4) Play the standard 3-ball multiball
5) Play the "Bigfoot Hunt" mode
I feel like doing all that would be a pretty solid game. Since it's a bigfoot game, I feel like bigfoot needs to go crazy during the wizard mode. My personal view on Wizard Modes is that they should feel like a reward. For me that would be something like a 2-multiball with an add-a-ball option. Maybe it's as simple as all hazards worth X-points, which are multiplied by the number of pictures you took during Bigfoot Hunt. Then have the Bigfoot Targets light Bigfoots Cave for your add-a-ball. Maybe have the add-a-ball active for a minute or two then that goes away so the game doesn't last for ever.

What a great post.

11 months later
#41 32 days ago

Finally recompiled (and replaced the zip online), it seems to work fine in visual pinball, will try it later in my own machine.

#42 32 days ago
Quoted from aeneas:

Finally recompiled (and replaced the zip online), it seems to work fine in visual pinball, will try it later in my own machine.

Awesome. Keep us updated!

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