(Updated with video)Big Indian Won’t Reset or Start a Game

(Topic ID: 226611)

(Updated with video)Big Indian Won’t Reset or Start a Game


By jdoz2

3 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 40 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 63 days ago by rolf_martin_062
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#1 3 months ago

I’ve made a little bit of progress on this game but I’m stumped by this issue.

When I push the start button:
- V pulls in
- Hold relay holds (R)
- PB2 pulls in

If I push the start button PB3 pulls in and the start button again pulls in PB4. After that the start button does nothing which makes sense.

Could any of the Gottlieb EM Gurus point me in the right direction? I can take a photo of any part of the schematic if it helps.
D0D0B7B9-324A-4492-9C94-9C4D671E89AA (resized).jpeg

#2 3 months ago

Your thread topic says it "won't start a game". If the playfield isn't active, inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires.

Pinball (resized).png
#3 3 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Your thread topic says it "won't start a game". If the playfield isn't active, inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires.
[quoted image]

I guess saying it won’t reset is more accurate. Thanks I’ll check that out

#4 3 months ago

Checked that path and it’s doing the same thing.

#5 3 months ago

What do you mean by "won't start a game"?

#6 3 months ago

When you push the start button, it does what I mentioned in my original post and that’s it. It doesn’t go through the reset cycle, doesn’t kick a ball out, no pf switches or solenoid power.

#7 3 months ago

If the Replay Button (V) relay activates and the Start (S) relay doesn't, inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires.

Pinball (resized).png
#8 3 months ago

I’ve done a quick check and nothing seems out of place. I’ll keep checking and report back

1 month later
#9 77 days ago

I’ve gone through the whole thing again and I’m still at the same place. Hopefully the video can clearly show what’s going on.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=jwLMR8r2dRI

#10 77 days ago

The video won't play for me. That said, is the score motor rotating? If not, is the service plug for it unplugged or in the "off" position? Are wires connected to both tabs on the motor coil winding?

Can you slightly rotate it with power on (Game over does not matter); does the motor continue by itself for a bit and then stop? If not, troubleshoot and figure out why. Standard electrical troubleshooting techniques apply here.

#11 77 days ago
Quoted from MrBally:

The video won't play for me. That said, is the score motor rotating? If not, is the service plug for it unplugged or in the "off" position? Are wires connected to both tabs on the motor coil winding?
Can you slightly rotate it with power on (Game over does not matter); does the motor continue by itself for a bit and then stop? If not, troubleshoot and figure out why. Standard electrical troubleshooting techniques apply here.

Sorry, I’ll take a look at the video to see if i can get it to play.

Yes the score motor turns when I push then replay button and when it’s turned.

#12 77 days ago

Video should work now, sorry

#13 77 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

If the Replay Button (V) relay activates and the Start (S) relay doesn't, inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires.
[quoted image]

Does the Replay Button (V) relay activate?
Does the Start (S) relay activate?

#14 77 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Does the Replay Button (V) relay activate?
Does the Start (S) relay activate?

Yes to both. It’s doing the same thing as described in my original post.

#15 76 days ago

Here's the reset sequence from the Big Indian manual. How far does it get?

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#16 76 days ago

If you set the coin adj for 1 credit start game , does the s relay pull in when you coin up the machine?

#17 75 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Here's the reset sequence from the Big Indian manual. How far does it get?
[quoted image]

It gets to #4. The sb relay never pulls in but it looks like the play meter tries to rotate but never makes a full rotation.

#18 75 days ago

Hi jdoz2
theory later --- look here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=257&picno=30529 - the huge bank of relays - it is called the Control-Bank. See (in the ipdb-picture) that some of the relays are moved / actuated / dropped. DANGER - there is 110 VAC / 24 VAC / 6 VAC in the pin - Current can kill You. Please toggle off Your pin AND UNPLUG the Main Power Cord. Now hold the plunger of the Control-Bank and move it (in the ipdb-picture) back, towards the Score-Motor. See how all the relays are moved / resetted.
Now hands off, plug in the main power cord - stare at the Control-Bank while You toggle the main power switch. When we toggle-on a fully running Big Indian: The QB-Game-Over-Relay plunges / actuates (in the Control-Bank) - AND the ZB-First-Ball-Relay plunges / actuates (in the Control-Bank) --- what do these relays do in Your pin ? Greetings Rolf

P.S. Watching Your video - I am not certain - thats why I ask about the two Relays.

#19 75 days ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi jdoz2
theory later --- look here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=257&picno=30529 - the huge bank of relays - it is called the Control-Bank. See (in the ipdb-picture) that some of the relays are moved / actuated / dropped. DANGER - there is 110 VAC / 24 VAC / 6 VAC in the pin - Current can kill You. Please toggle off Your pin AND UNPLUG the Main Power Cord. Now hold the plunger of the Control-Bank and move it (in the ipdb-picture) back, towards the Score-Motor. See how all the relays are moved / resetted.
Now hands off, plug in the main power cord - stare at the Control-Bank while You toggle the main power switch. When we toggle-on a fully running Big Indian: The QB-Game-Over-Relay plunges / actuates (in the Control-Bank) - AND the ZB-First-Ball-Relay plunges / actuates (in the Control-Bank) --- what do these relays do in Your pin ? Greetings Rolf
P.S. Watching Your video - I am not certain - thats why I ask about the two Relays.

Thanks for the detailed instructions that helps a lot. When I follow your procedure only the QB actuates

#20 75 days ago
Quoted from jdoz2:

It gets to #4. The sb relay never pulls in but it looks like the play meter tries to rotate but never makes a full rotation.

Try disconnecting the play meter. It could be shorted inside.
Then inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires.

Pinball (resized).png
#21 75 days ago

Hi jdoz2
look at this video http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#axrelayvideo ONLY look at time 00:48 to 00:56. The man (Clay) does MANUALLY actuate / plunge relays on the Control-Bank.
Please toggle-off AND UNPLUG the main power cord. Do reset the Control-Bank. THEN (fumble a bit, do like Clay): MAKE the ZB-First-Ball-Relay plunge / actuate. Then plug-in, toggle-on - the pin actuates the QB-Relay - NOW You have both relays plunged - then press the Credit Button / Start Button - is the SB1-Relay (in the Control-Bank) nice / friendly - does it plunge / actuate --- and the Start-up of a new game begins ? Greetings Rolf

#22 75 days ago

Ok, I followed your directions.

When I do that and turn the game back on, QB AND LB actuate. If I press the replay button SB actuates and the score motor keeps spinning.

#23 74 days ago

Hi jdoz2
good - some progress. Look at the Operatings Instrucions HowardR shows in post-15. We have the Work-Around on the not written 0. - Plugging-in and toggling-on makes the QB- and the ZB-Relay to actuate (if not already actuated in the game before). Then (in the Operating Instructions) the 1. works - and the 2. works and the 3. works and the 4. works --- we are on 5.

I always like to see the pin resetting the Score-Drums on all 4 players. You may have all the Score-Drums at Zero (?). Please toggle-off / unplug the 110VAC line cord (Safety Reasons), open the Backbox, take out the 100-points-Score-Drum of player-1 - manually put some points on the drum. The same on 100-points-Score-Drum of player-2, -3, -4. Have the 110VAC main power cord still unplugged - do the work-around (post-21) - plug-in, toggle-on, press the Credit-Button --- wait a bit. Does then the Z2-Reset-Relay pull-in, stays pulling and with the help of the turning motor - do the Score-Drums of player-3 and -4 reset (step forward) ? THEN Z2-Relay quits pulling, Z1-Relay pulls-in, stays pulling and with the help of the turning motor - do the Score-Drums of player-1 and -2 reset ?

IF (if, if) the Z2-Relay does not pull-in - just the motor is running: Wear rubber gloves or use an wooden stick - gently press the armature on Z2-Relay (while the motor is running) - do the Score-Drums reset ? Once again: NEVER touch bare metal / soldered-on wires in the pin with naked / non-insulated hands - current can kill You. Greetings Rolf

#24 68 days ago

Sorry it took so long to do this.

So I followed your procedure and the z2 engages and tries resetting the score reels. After some tweaking the 3rd and 4th players reset and then the 1st and 2nd player resets.

The reset bank then actuates and then the game shows player 1, ball 1.

Seems like we are close! Thanks again for helping me through this.

#25 67 days ago

Hi jdoz2
great - You could fix some Reset-Problems. I rewiew - You toggle off the pin and unplug the main power cord. You manually make the ZB-Relay in the Control-Bank to plunge, You manually put some points on some Score-Drums. You plug-in, toggle-on, press the Credit-Button --- the pin starts up and does Start-up / Resetting procedure. See the JPG in post-15: Your pin does the 1., 2., 3., 4., 5., 6. By now do not try the "7." - procede with 8. You wear rubber gloves (Safety Reasons), You have lifted the playfield so You can watch the O-Ball-Return-Relay. Manually close the Outhole-Switch below the Outhole (Gottlieb calls this switch "Ball-Return-Switch") --- the O-Relay should pull-in, the motor should turn - then the Outhole-Kicker (Gottlieb: Ball-Return-Coil) should kick. If the pin does nothing when You manually close the Outhole-Switch: Manually activate the O-Relay - what happens ?
By the way - here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=257&picno=7435 we see the Bonus-Ladder - none of the Bonus-Lights should be lit (this pin starts with ZERO Bonus) - in Your pin ? Greetings Rolf

#26 67 days ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi jdoz2
great - You could fix some Reset-Problems. I rewiew - You toggle off the pin and unplug the main power cord. You manually make the ZB-Relay in the Control-Bank to plunge, You manually put some points on some Score-Drums. You plug-in, toggle-on, press the Credit-Button --- the pin starts up and does Start-up / Resetting procedure. See the JPG in post-15: Your pin does the 1., 2., 3., 4., 5., 6. By now do not try the "7." - procede with 8. You wear rubber gloves (Safety Reasons), You have lifted the playfield so You can watch the O-Ball-Return-Relay. Manually close the Outhole-Switch below the Outhole (Gottlieb calls this switch "Ball-Return-Switch") --- the O-Relay should pull-in, the motor should turn - then the Outhole-Kicker (Gottlieb: Ball-Return-Coil) should kick. If the pin does nothing when You manually close the Outhole-Switch: Manually activate the O-Relay - what happens ?
By the way - here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=257&picno=7435 we see the Bonus-Ladder - none of the Bonus-Lights should be lit (this pin starts with ZERO Bonus) - in Your pin ? Greetings Rolf

I’ll put the playfield back in later today and report back. Thanks!

#27 67 days ago

When I manually close the puthole switch, then I relay pulls in, score motor rotates, and the pothole kicker fires

#28 67 days ago

The ball kicks to the shooter lane and it seems like the game is scoring and the coils work as they should. The balls don’t advance though.

#29 66 days ago

Hi jdoz2
with some work-arounds the pin kicks out the first ball in a One-Player-Game. You make some points - You maybe make some bonus - https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=257&picno=7435 a light is lit on the Bonus-Ladder.
You loose the ball - it rolls into the Outhole and so closes the Outhole--Switch (Gottlieb: Ball Return Switch). Now happens, see the JPG - current (in the lower right corner upwards then leftbound) starts flowing - Anti-Cheat-Switch is closed - Motor-Switch-2B is closed (motor is not yet running) - Motor-Switch-1C is closed (encircled light-blue, motor is not yet running) - the ball is laying in the Outhole so switch is closed --- when "No Bonus are made": Straight to the left and up - Switch on QB is closed (we have not yet reached Game-Over) - O-Relay is made to pull in - (it makes the motor to turn and) it actuates all its switches so its Self-Hold-Switch (encircled orange) closes - the O-Relay stays pulling until the running motor at end of the turn (of 120 degrees) opens motor-switch-2B (encircled dark-blue) and this cuts Self-Hold-Current - O-Relay let go.
When "Some Bonus are made": The "Zero-Pos-Bonus-Unit Switch" is moved - Current flows down and then to the left --- Q-Relay pulls in, closes its Self-Hold-Switch (encircled brown) - FIRST the Bonus shall be counted down - then the "Zero-Pos-Bonus-Unit Switch" moves back - and the O-Relay is allowed to pull-in.
The written above is "Counting down Bonus" and "Kicking out a new ball".

The ball is kicked - it rolls over to the shooter alley - on its way the ball closes the so-called "Ball-Trough-Switch - see https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=257&picno=38665 upper right corner --- on the line from Outhole to shooter alley. The ball rolling closes the switch --- see again in the JPG - now the P-Relay is made to pull in ... closes its Self-Hold-Switch (encircled grey).

Your post-28 is not precise - please give a more detailled description --- Bonus / no Bonus --- when You manually close the ipdb-picture-Ball-Trough-Switch - does the Player-Unit in the Backbox steps it should make four steps (in a One-Player-Game) --- the Unit should better be named "Gottlieb Player and Balls Unit". Greetings Rolf

0Big-Indian-Work-04 (resized).jpg
#30 65 days ago

The game counts bonus when when the outhole switch is closed. After bonus is counted, it then kicks a new ball over to the shooter lane which closes the ball through switch. The ball/player stepper in the backbox does not advance when a new ball is kicked and the trough switch is closed.

#31 65 days ago

Hi jdoz2
lets try again / once more "manually actuating a relay" - this time the P-Add-Player-Unit-Relay. Do a start - then playing, making points and some bonus - loose the ball , bonus is counted down - ball is kicked over to the shooter alley - on its way the ball closes the trough switch. NOW, You (wear rubber gloves and) You manually activate the P-Relay --- does it stay pulled-in for a while ? the motor runs ? and the Player-Unit in the backbox steps ? I hope for 4 steps (?). (((The schematics shows "Also the O-Relay does pull-in"))). Greetings Rolf

#32 65 days ago

Ok I followed the procedure. After the ball drains, bonus is counted, and the ball is put in the shooter lane, I manually activated the P relay. Nothing at all happens when the P relay is activated

Side note: when the ball trough switch is activated the O and P relay Activate. It sure if that tells you anything or not

#33 65 days ago

Hi jdoz2
great - the manually activating the P-Relay makes the O-Relay to pull-in - the motor makes a turn of 120 degrees (one third of a revolution) - THEN the P-Relay de-activates and the O-Relay deactivates --- is this true ? Greetings Rolf.
P.S.: To proceed in testing I must make an new JPG - this will take another half an hour.

#34 65 days ago

When I manually activate the P relay the game doesn’t do anything.

If the ball trough switch is closed by the ball, the P and the O engage and the score motor turns 120 degrees, then they de-activate

That might be what you just said but I’m making sure I was clear

#35 65 days ago

Hi jdoz2
I gladly take "If the ball trough switch is closed by the ball, the P and the O engage and the score motor turns 120 degrees, then they deactivate".

In my files I do not find the JPG I'd like to show ... Well, here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=257&picno=41544 we see on the bottom "ONE can play" and we see "Score-Drums of Player-1 are lit" and we see "Ball in Play - the 1 is lit". When You have started and You play - is Your pin lit as shown in the ipdb-picture ?

And now I do (again) the JPG to show ... Greetings Rolf

#36 65 days ago

Yes mine looks exactly like that photo after the game resets and the balls is kicked out to the shooter lane

#37 65 days ago

Hi jdoz2
start a game - play the ball, MAKE some points so the ZB-Relay in the Control-Bank plunges - let the ball drain - ball is kicked over to the shooter alley - NOW You please wear rubber gloves (Safety Reasons, Current can kill people) do manually step the Player-Unit in the Backbox FOUR times - are You on Player-1, Ball-2 ?
The JPG is to show where in the schematics we are at --- first we want current flow where I have encircled blue the important switches.

I did part of laundry - I have to do the rest also, have to eat dinner - some rest and then go to sleep This is the last post for today. Greetings Rolf

#38 65 days ago

hmm - and the JPG ...

0Big-Indian-Work-05 (resized).jpg
#39 64 days ago

I followed your directions and when I step up the player unit 4 times and arrived st player 1 ball 2.

#40 63 days ago

Hi jdoz2
You did manually step four steps and so You have stepped over Player-2-Ball-1, Player-3-Ball-1, Player-4-Ball-1 and with the last step You stepped to Player-1-Ball-2. The Unit should be called Gottlieb-Players-and-Balls-Unit.
Look at the Player-Unit - a friend starts a game - see the Player-Unit (PU) step and step and then comes to an halt - the so-called Home-Position, enumerating is "Position-Zero". (One step further is Pos-1 means Player-2-Ball-1 and further and further). I assume You see the PU stepping - see the JPG: The PU is stepped along "my brown wiring" - this connection is good. In question is "my encircled blue switches" and the wiring in between. Attention: The schematics are drawn abstract - in reality in the pins there is never a fork-of from a wire --- the connections are either (bottom of JPG) like "A" or like "B" or like "C".
First You should locate the Relays and the switches on the relays, motor. Go by the color of the connecting wires. Have the pin toggled-off and the line-cord unplugged (Safety Reasons). Gently pull on each wire at an solder-lug - TRUELY soldered-on ?

Do You have Jumper-Wires with Gator-Clips on the ends of the wires ? Greetings Rolf

0Big-Indian-Work-06 (resized).jpg
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