(Topic ID: 215316)

Big Game controlled lamps failure

By Fytr

5 years ago


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  • 32 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Fytr
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 5 years ago

Big Game has been working well on location for a couple of months but last week I noticed that all the of controlled lamps have stopped working.

- None of the playfield insert lamps or backbox controlled lamps will light, otherwise game works perfectly.
- All board testpoints measure nominally.
- I swapped the LDB with a known working one, no change (game has an Alltek MPU board in it).
- exposed lamp wires on the bottom of the playfield reads 6v DCish.
- Shorting several of the lamps to the ground braid doesn't light them.
- No burnt looking connectors or pins on the boards, I tried re-seating them all as well.

Thinking re-pin the female connector for J1 on the LDB? Other ideas?

#2 5 years ago

Have you checked your fuses? I fixed this same issue last night on my Pinbot when I put new fuses in. Backbox and Playfield were both out.

#3 5 years ago

Goddamn Bally/Stern controlled lamps...it's always something
BUMP

#4 5 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

Big Game has been working well on location for a couple of months but last week I noticed that all the of controlled lamps have stopped working.
- None of the playfield insert lamps or backbox controlled lamps will light, otherwise game works perfectly.
- All board testpoints measure nominally.
- I swapped the LDB with a known working one, no change (game has an Alltek MPU board in it).
- exposed lamp wires on the bottom of the playfield reads 6v DCish.
- Shorting several of the lamps to the ground braid doesn't light them.
- No burnt looking connectors or pins on the boards, I tried re-seating them all as well.
Thinking re-pin the female connector for J1 on the LDB? Other ideas?

Fytr Pinsider cottonm4 organized a group of People to preorder a lamp control mechanism for Big Game. I don’t remember the details but I’m sure that he can fill us in

#5 5 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

- exposed lamp wires on the bottom of the playfield reads 6v DCish.
- Shorting several of the lamps to the ground braid doesn't light them.

If you have 6V on one end of a lamp and ground on the other they should be lighting. Either the lamp or socket is bad or you're doing one of those two bullet points wrong.

#6 5 years ago
Quoted from CollinT:

Have you checked your fuses? I fixed this same issue last night on my Pinbot when I put new fuses in. Backbox and Playfield were both out.

Fuses checked out when tested for continuity with a MM. Plus I don't think the game would work if one of the fuses was out, there isn't one dedicated to the controlled lamps, plus test points read fine on the boards and 6V at the wire under the PF.

Quoted from zacaj:

If you have 6V on one end of a lamp and ground on the other they should be lighting. Either the lamp or socket is bad or you're doing one of those two bullet points wrong.

Yeah, that's what I thought too. I tried a couple and they didn't light. I also tried replacing the bulb on one of them with an LED from the GI (which is working fine) and it didn't light either. Maybe my test wire I used to short to ground was bad? I did also verify continuity between the ground braid in the cabinet and the head/board grounds ?

I should have tested the bulb in the GI while I was at it so see if it was burnt out.

#7 5 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

Plus I don't think the game would work if one of the fuses was out, there isn't one dedicated to the controlled lamps, plus test points read fine on the boards and 6V at the wire under the PF.

F1 on the rectifier is dedicated to controlled lamps. But as you say you're getting voltage so that's not the issue

#8 5 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

F1 on the rectifier is dedicated to controlled lamps. But as you say you're getting voltage so that's not the issue

Yeah, I'd be really happy if it was a fuse, but can't be or they'd be no voltage on the wire, right?

Assuming that's the case, suggestions on where to look next? I was going to re-pin J1 at least on the LDB and I'll retest shorting a few sockets to ground with a good wire too.

#9 5 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

Yeah, I'd be really happy if it was a fuse, but can't be or they'd be no voltage on the wire, right?
Assuming that's the case, suggestions on where to look next? I was going to re-pin J1 at least on the LDB and I'll retest shorting a few sockets to ground with a good wire too.

I wouldn't do anything till you can confirm you can light them 'by hand'. Once that's done, if they still don't work, I'd suspect the Lamp Strobe 1 line from the MPU to the lamp board first, since that's the only thing common to all lamps. Repinning J4 on the LDB and J1 on the MPU can't hurt though. (along with any of J1-3 on the lamp board)

#10 5 years ago

First off, the ground (looking) braid that connects all of your GI lights is not ground. Those braids are your hot wires that splice into the red wire at connector J1 at the rectifier board. The multiple points of white wires at all your GI lights is ground.
****************************************

Pull the J1 connector on the rectifier board at the transformer. You should have one red wire, one white wire, two blue wires, and one blue/white wire in that connector wafer. The blue/ white is the hot wire for your flippers. If your flippers are working, then ignore the blue/white wire.

The white wire is ground for your GI lights. The red wire is your GI hot wire and will splice in to the braided wire that is soldered along the bases of all your GI lights. The two blue wires are the hot wires for your controlled lamps. One of the blue wires supplies power the four lamps down between the flippers. The other blue wire splices in at various locations around your play field.

Make sure the connectors for the white wire, the red wire, and the two blue wire are not collapsed or folded over folded over (you say you are getting voltage at the test points so these four wire connectors should be OK). Nevertheless, look inside the wafer and assure none of the connectors are collapsed or folded over.

If the above checks out, then go to your lamp driver board. All of your controlled lamps will connect via LDA connectors J1, and J2, and J3. There will be other wires on these 3 connectors besides the controlled lamp wires but the blue print does not address this but be aware that wires are going all over the place in the back box.

With the above in mind, if you have no control lamps in any form, I am guessing the connector to look at is J4 on the LDA. Pull it an look inside to make sure none of those connectors is folded over or broken. These will be had to see; You might need a magnifying glass. Since the blueprint, as mentioned above, is not clear then have a look inside of the J1, and J2 and J3 connector wafers, as well. I mention all of this because when I
re-pinned two of my Sterns I found broken connectors inside some of my board connectors.
******************************

After you work all of the above, know that some of the wiring on LDA connector J4 leads back to the MPU and the SDU so you could have an issue with one of these boards.

Lets go one step at a time; Try checking what I wrote about the "*" line. Come back and tell me what you find. If you have no luck then I'll dig deeper into the blueprint.

BTW: The lamps in the back box look to be on a different circuit but I need to study that some more.

#11 5 years ago
Quoted from bluespin:

fytr Pinsider cottonm4 organized a group of People to preorder a lamp control mechanism for Big Game. I don’t remember the details but I’m sure that he can fill us in

What you are thinking about is the the bingo card lamp replacement boards that allows Big Game owners the option of using 555 bulb sockets. Credit where credit is due: Chuckwurt ran point on the ones for Big Game. I got involved with the ones for Nine Ball.

#12 5 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

I wouldn't do anything till you can confirm you can light them 'by hand'. Once that's done, if they still don't work, I'd suspect the Lamp Strobe 1 line from the MPU to the lamp board first, since that's the only thing common to all lamps. Repinning J4 on the LDB and J1 on the MPU can't hurt though. (along with any of J1-3 on the lamp board)

Yeah, the strange part is the contradictory evidence. Power on the wire, no light when socket tab is grounded.

The game is 30 mins drive away from home so I don't get out there as easily/often as I'd like.

I thought read somewhere of cases where all the controlled lamps in a game were fried in one go by a short or something. Could that even be a thing here?

#13 5 years ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

First off, the ground (looking) braid that connects all of your GI lights is not ground. Those braids are your hot wires that splice into the red wire at connector J1 at the rectifier board. The multiple points of white wires at all your GI lights is ground.

Yes, I meant the bare wire under the PF running to the controlled lamps, not the GI (GI is fine). It was reading approx. 6v everywhere I tested it.

I'll focus on the connectors and esp. J4 on the LDB.

Thx!

#14 5 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

Could that even be a thing here?

I guess it could... I'd bring some known good incandescents with you next time, then try lighting one by hand, and go from there

#15 5 years ago

I would try using leds for testing as they use less juice. In the last 2 weeks I've had a ton of bally/Stern so Mets work with LEDS and not incandescent

#16 5 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

I guess it could... I'd bring some known good incandescents with you next time, then try lighting one by hand, and go from there

Quoted from TheLaw:

I would try using leds for testing as they use less juice. In the last 2 weeks I've had a ton of bally/Stern so Mets work with LEDS and not incandescent

I'll bring some. I did test one socket with a working LED off the GI string to no avail. But nothing from my data makes sense so we'll see.

#17 5 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

Yeah, the strange part is the contradictory evidence. Power on the wire, no light when socket tab is grounded.
The game is 30 mins drive away from home so I don't get out there as easily/often as I'd like.
I thought read somewhere of cases where all the controlled lamps in a game were fried in one go by a short or something. Could that even be a thing here?

I blew out all of the controlled lamps on my Seawitch by shorting one of the lamps several months ago. I saw the spark when I did it but did not realized until later that I blew all my bulbs. So it can happen.

The question is: Can it happen during game play on a routed game? I don't know, but my Nine Ball has a burn spot on lower side of the play field and I can tell a lamp holder/housing shorted for somebody because I could tell the housing had been replaced. Did that cause all of the bulbs to blow? I don't know since it was some previous owner who replaced it, but for sure take a close look at all of your lamp housings.

#18 5 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

I'll focus on the connectors and esp. J4 on the LDB.

When you ground the end tab on the feature lamp sockets, you completely bypass the LDB for that lamp circuit. So if the lamp doesn't light doing this jumper test, the issue can't be the LDB. The LDB just electronically switches the socket end tab to ground.

When you ground a lamp socket end tab, do you actually measure 6VDC across that lamp socket between the base and end tab?

#19 5 years ago

Just for grins, try this. Forget the test points on the rectifier. Pull the J-1 connector from the rectifier board and see what voltages are coming at the pins. If pin voltages check out then plug the connector back in. Then go to those 3 metal bingo card lamp mounts. One of the blue wires from the rectifier powers those bingo card mounts. If you have voltage at the rectifier pins then you should have voltage at the bingo cards.

I'm starting to think like the other poster who talked about your MPU. The MPU is root power for your lights. Anything can break, including an Alltek MPU.

I see you own a Stargazer. If SG has a good MPU maybe you could swap that for a test. Hopefully you have your Big Game ROMS you could install.

No. Forget swapping ROMS. Change your dip switches and try your Alltek MPU in your Stargazer and see how it checks out.

#20 5 years ago

Okay, finally got a chance to revisit my earlier tests on the game yesterday.

As previously, shorting the sockets did not light bulbs.
However, + braid to the controlled lamps under the playfield is reading 3.5-4.5vdc, which is low!

Checking TP1 on the rectifier board reads:
3.5v with everything plugged = LOW
7.8v with everything unplugged (NORMAL?).

This would lead me to think I have some kind of weak short in the wiring to the controlled lamps, or more likely a weak connector.

With only J2 plugged into the rectifier board I read 20v dc at TP1, way high correct? Could a flakey connector cause this or is there something going wrong on the rectifier board itself?

Seems like it could be rectifier board connector issues. Some of the connectors have been hacked and soldered directly into the board previously.

#21 5 years ago

Take out F1 and then take an AC reading from E9 to E10. Should be 7.8VAC. If it's much higher then there's a problem with the wiring. 7.8V might be in line with no load but 20V is definitely too high. Also check that R2 is within spec

1 week later
#22 5 years ago

Okay, game is at home now so I can rapid-fire tests, etc.

Took another set of readings off the rectifier board last night after setting it up again:

Tp1 2.7 vdc or 1.42 vdc w/ J1 disconnected
Tp2 234 - 239 vdc
Tp3 14.3 vdc
Tp4 7.6 vac
Tp5 48.3 vdc

With all plugs (J1 - J3) and fuses in I get the following readings on TP1:
Game power on until boot sequence complete: 12.2 vdc!
After successful boot: 5.25 vdc
Approx. 3 secs after boot voltage drops to approx. 3 vdc.

So the drop from 12.2 v to 5.25 v would occur at the moment that the controlled lamps would first be lit, after boot. Very quickly voltage drops to around 3v after that. Thoughts?

Quoted from zacaj:

Take out F1 and then take an AC reading from E9 to E10. Should be 7.8VAC. If it's much higher then there's a problem with the wiring. 7.8V might be in line with no load but 20V is definitely too high. Also check that R2 is within spec

E9 to e10 with F1 removed reads 8.95 vac. Okay? The GI is fine btw, the problem is the controlled lamps.

#23 5 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

E9 to e10 with F1 removed reads 8.95 vac. Okay?

That's probably fine. So getting proper voltage from transformer.

Quoted from Fytr:With all plugs (J1 - J3) and fuses in I get the following readings on TP2:

Which board's TP2?

Quoted from Fytr:Tp1 2.7 vdc or 1.42 vdc w/ J1 disconnected

The voltage lowered when you disconnected the playfield?

Quoted from Fytr:

The GI is fine btw, the problem is the controlled lamps.

GI is E7 + 8, controlled lamps (before rectification to DC) are E9+10.

#24 5 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

Tp1 2.7 vdc or 1.42 vdc w/ J1 disconnected

If you disconnect J1 and J3 from the rectifier board and measure around 2.7VDC (half voltage) at TP1 on the rectifier board, then bridge rectifier BR1 is suspect (open internal diode).

Post a picture of the rectifier board if you can.

#25 5 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Which board's TP2?

Sorry it was TP1 on the rectifier board, not TP2. I’ve corrected the original post.

#26 5 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

If you disconnect J1 and J3 from the rectifier board and measure around 2.7VDC (half voltage) at TP1 on the rectifier board, then bridge rectifier BR1 is suspect (open internal diode).
Post a picture of the rectifier board if you can.

Seems very likely. Can I use the same BR’s as a WPC power board uses for this? I have a bunch of those.

#27 5 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

Seems very likely. Can I use the same BR’s as a WPC power board uses for this? I have a bunch of those.

They're compatible specs wise, but they won't fit the board. You can wire them in to test though, but I'd check the bridge with a diode test first, see if anything seems suspicious.

Also, try watching TP1 again with the lamp driver unplugged, see if you still get the drop. It could be a problem there somehow, if you happen to have any other lamp boards you could swap in to compare...

#28 5 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Also, try watching TP1 again with the lamp driver unplugged, see if you still get the drop. It could be a problem there somehow, if you happen to have any other lamp boards you could swap in to compare...

I had previously swapped in a known working LDB and the controlled lamps still did not function. Didn't get voltage readings then though.

#29 5 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

I had previously swapped in a known working LDB and the controlled lamps still did not function. Didn't get voltage readings then though.

Probably not the board then...

Tested R2? If it's fine I'd definitely replace the bridge next

#30 5 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Probably not the board then...
Tested R2? If it's fine I'd definitely replace the bridge next

So R2 is reading 3.0 Mohms on my meter. That sounds bad.

What are the specs for this resistor so I can order a replacement?

#31 5 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

So R2 is reading 3.0 Mohms on my meter. That sounds bad.
What are the specs for this resistor so I can order a replacement?

Should be 25ohms 5W. If it's died I'd probably replace R1 (600ohms 10W) as well since they've both probably been stressed for a while. I see them cracked a lot. And grab the correct bridge.

#32 5 years ago

Swapped out the transformer + rectifier board with a known good one and after rebuilding the missing J3 and J1 connectors all is good.

Original board is a mess.

47C4554D-F5D4-42FE-B72E-5038B1916934 (resized).jpeg47C4554D-F5D4-42FE-B72E-5038B1916934 (resized).jpeg

Might as well completely rebuild it.

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