(Topic ID: 289619)

Big Brave problems

By Snaggerbob

2 years ago


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  • 50 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Snaggerbob
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#1 2 years ago

Hi, Thanks for accepting me! I have just purchased my first pin. Please excuse my lack of knowledge. I don't have a schematic or manual. The Big Brave works pretty well but not perfect. The tens reel for both players will not spin. The 2 pop bumpers do not score when hit. Are points awarded for the step bonus when the ball drains? Mine just counts back to the bottom. The game credit will not advance when a game is won. It will count down if manually advanced. The machine is set for free play. Sometimes one of the pop up targets won't reset. Most of the time they work. There's more but that's enough for now.

#2 2 years ago
Quoted from Snaggerbob:

Hi, Thanks for accepting me! I have just purchased my first pin. Please excuse my lack of knowledge. I don't have a schematic or manual.

Congrats and welcome!! Firstly, you have to get a schematic and manual: http://www.pbresource.com/ (you will have to set up an account the first time; use the email)

Have a look thru this and bookmark: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index1

#3 2 years ago

Guess I’ll wait til I get a schematic. Very informative link, thanks. I’ll play it like it is in the mean time.

#4 2 years ago

- So are your 10 reels just sitting at zero all the time since your 10 points scoring doesn't work? Do the 10 point reels reset along with the other reels at game start if you manually advance the reel(s) with your finger to something other than zero?
- Do 10 point scores ring the chime, but just don't score?
- Do the pop bumpers fire and ring the chime, and the only thing missing is the 100 points scoring?
- Bonus countdown should be awarding points, not just decrementing to zero.
- Do you know how it was set to free play? Do credits get added if you use a coin switch and coin switch setting (plugs in cabinet near the front) that adds multiple credits per coin?

#5 2 years ago
Quoted from Snaggerbob:

The tens reel for both players will not spin.

May be the hold sw. This is from Big Indian, the 4 player, so wire colors may be different.

Capture (resized).PNGCapture (resized).PNG
#6 2 years ago
Quoted from Snaggerbob:

The 2 pop bumpers do not score when hit.

Likely because they are 10 pts. unless lit. Do they score 100 when lit?

#7 2 years ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

- So are your 10 reels just sitting at zero all the time since your 10 points scoring doesn't work? Do the 10 point reels reset along with the other reels at game start if you manually advance the reel(s) with your finger to something other than zero?
- Do 10 point scores ring the chime, but just don't score?
- Do the pop bumpers fire and ring the chime, and the only thing missing is the 100 points scoring?
- Bonus countdown should be awarding points, not just decrementing to zero.
- Do you know how it was set to free play? Do credits get added if you use a coin switch and coin switch setting (plugs in cabinet near the front) that adds multiple credits per coin?

Here is what I've found. The tens reel is always at 0. I tried to manually advance it but it wouldn't budge, I wasn't sure if I would mess something up if I forced it too much. The hundreds reel will advance in 500 point increments. It resets to 0 when the game ends. I tried to advance it manually also. It wouldn't budge and I didn't force it. No chime or score for 10 point hit. Pop bumpers fire but no score or chime. I'm not sure how it was set up for free play. I push the reset button and the game starts. If I advance the credits manually it will count back down. Here's what else is happening as it may be all related: The bottom inside rollovers will score 500 with chimes when lit and nothing when not. The same is true for the two targets, score 500 or nothing. Vari target will only score 1000 no matter how hard it's hit. The uppermost star rollover will light up when the "B" rollover is activated but will not advance the bonus. The bonus advances 15 steps but will not score points when ball is drained. It looks like there might be a step missing on bonus advance. I took a picture. I have ordered a schematic. Do I need a manual as well?

IMG_0629 (resized).jpgIMG_0629 (resized).jpg

#8 2 years ago
Quoted from Snaggerbob:

I tried to manually advance it but it wouldn't budge,

What if you push on the plunger that goes into the coil?

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

What if you push on the plunger that goes into the coil?

They will advance when the plunger is pushed and then reset. I did take a baby step forward, the vari target now works as it should. I cleaned the contact points that that the plunger encounters when pushed over. It will advance the bonus as well. I have never been able to get it past 2000. There is no way I could push it tp 5000, which is max. Is there ant adjustment to ease it up a bit?

#10 2 years ago
Quoted from Snaggerbob:

I have never been able to get it past 2000. There is no way I could push it tp 5000, which is max. Is there ant adjustment to ease it up a bit?

Watch underneath while pushing on the vari-target and repeat til you can see where it is binding. Did you take a look at post 5? If you have any questions or aren't clear on things-esp. as a new owner-just ask.

#11 2 years ago

I’m not clear what to check on the hold switch. Is it labeled? Remember this is all new to me and I don’t have a schematic yet.

#12 2 years ago

Can you locate the "N" relay? It should be in the head, one of the relays mounted on the indicated rack. Are they labeled? The "N" switch (Hold switch) is mounted on the N relay.

BTW, the wire colors are the same between Big Brave and Big Indian for the schematic in post 5...

The pin repair site that currieddog indicated has details on relays here:
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index1.htm#emparts

BigBraveHead (resized).jpgBigBraveHead (resized).jpg

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from Snaggerbob:

I have never been able to get it past 2000. There is no way I could push it tp 5000, which is max. Is there ant adjustment to ease it up a bit?

Ooh, Big Brave was my first pin!... Almost a year ago. Sold her since, but maybe can help from memory.

For the vari-target, mine was also originally impossible to hit the 5000, which was unfortunate because it's the most satisfying (and dangerous) shot in the game. To adjust it, I unwound the tension spring a few times to release some of the tension. Don't make it too loose or the satisfaction will diminish, you want to release just enough tension so that it is possible with a perfect shot. If it's too loose, the target also may have trouble resetting back to initial position after it's been pushed back. It took a little trial-and-erroring... unwind maybe one or two loops at a time until you get to a point where a perfect shot grants you the 5k. Also recommend just unwinding one or two loops at a time because it's much more difficult to add tension then release it

Also make sure the switch contacts are clean, since those can add unwanted friction, as well.

spaceorbit_varitarget_tension_spring (resized).jpgspaceorbit_varitarget_tension_spring (resized).jpg
#14 2 years ago

I’ve located the N relay. It will advance the reel if I manually push up on the bottom when powered. The M relay does the same. I guess they aren’t getting power from the switch.

#15 2 years ago

There should be four 10 point switches behind rubber rings, distributed around the playfield. If you hold any one of them closed, does the N relay engage? Are points scored?

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from Snaggerbob:

I’ve located the N relay. It will advance the reel if I manually push up on the bottom when powered. The M relay does the same. I guess they aren’t getting power from the switch.

You didn't mention 100s scoring before; is that a problem too? Have you checked all of the Jones plugs? There are a couple on the back bottom of the cabinet and also some in the backbox/head. Pull each and make sure all the prongs are nice and clean, and well-seated when you put them back in. Also check each for loose wires.

#17 2 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

You didn't mention 100s scoring before; is that a problem too? Have you checked all of the Jones plugs? There are a couple on the back bottom of the cabinet and also some in the backbox/head. Pull each and make sure all the prongs are nice and clean, and well-seated when you put them back in. Also check each for loose wires.

The hundreds reel will score in 500 point increments. It will not score individual 100 point scores. Sorry, I thought I mentioned that. I will check the Jones plugs.

#18 2 years ago
Quoted from Snaggerbob:

The hundreds reel will score in 500 point increments. It will not score individual 100 point scores. Sorry, I thought I mentioned that.

My bad-you did.

So, that means D, the 500 pt. and Add Bonus Unit relay, is working correctly. The pulses go thru score motor sw. 1A and then thru the 100 pt. relay (M). So why not 100s? Let's start going thru some of the suggestions above to try to narrow things down. First, can you do the Jones plugs, then find the sw. in post 5, and then try loosening the spring on the vari-target. You'll get some energy when you see results. Again, ask if you're not sure about something.

#19 2 years ago

I just finished cleaning all the Jones plugs. They looked pretty good but did clean up a bit. No success. Am I missing a contact on the picture submitted. It's on the bonus stepper.

IMG_0637_LI (resized).jpgIMG_0637_LI (resized).jpg
#20 2 years ago

Is that gray hole in the center actually a hole? If so, you sure are. You can buy contacts from Pinball Resource, but I would wait and see if you need anything else before ordering so you don't get whacked on shipping.

#21 2 years ago

Here are pictures of the N relay. It will fire if I manually push it.

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#23 2 years ago
Quoted from Snaggerbob:

Here are pictures of the N relay. It will fire if I manually push it.

Are you able to locate the hold sw. using the wire colors? It's good for practice for a noob, but you might as well clean them all and make the gaps are good and that they're 'wiping.' http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#clean

#24 2 years ago

Is the switch part of the relay? Sorry but this is all very new to me. The wires are small and faded and my eyes are old like me. I did manage to fix another problem. A contact on the top drop target would stick causing the bonus to keep awarding points. I’ve adjusted that and it seems okay.

#25 2 years ago
Quoted from Snaggerbob:

Is the switch part of the relay?

Yes, they, the coil, the frame, and the plastic armature that the blades slide into are all parts of a relay.

Quoted from Snaggerbob:

A contact on the top drop target would stick causing the bonus to keep awarding points. I’ve adjusted that and it seems okay.

Good job. A lot of times with an EM a close visual inspection will bring you to the problem, unlike SS where things can hide in the boards.

#26 2 years ago

Why don't you try going back to post 13 and try adjusting the vari-target next.

#27 2 years ago

Here's what I've done with the vari target. I loosened the spring one full turn. I cleaned the contacts. There was old grease on the pas between the contacts. I cleaned it off. It will go back a bit farther than before but it takes forever to reset. The stepper thing doesn't seem right. While it's resetting you can't score, lights just blink. I think I've located the hold switch. The bottom contact is loose and the spade sticking out the back appears burnt or black.

IMG_0648_LI (resized).jpgIMG_0648_LI (resized).jpg
#28 2 years ago
Quoted from Snaggerbob:

There was old grease on the pas between the contacts. I cleaned it off. It will go back a bit farther than before but it takes forever to reset. The stepper thing doesn't seem right. While it's resetting you can't score, lights just blink.

No score during reset would be normal, but it should not be resetting during play. The unit likely needs a cleaning, so check here for more info: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#steps

Quoted from Snaggerbob:

I think I've located the hold switch. The bottom contact is loose and the spade sticking out the back appears burnt or black.

You should be able to squeeze the contact with needlenose pliers to tighten it. I don't what you mean by 'spade,' can you post a pic?

#29 2 years ago

It's where the switch goes through the back of the relay. The metal strips of the switch where the contact sets are loose. I will attempt to tighten it. If that is the hold switch, it should be open, correct?

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#30 2 years ago
Quoted from Snaggerbob:

The metal strips of the switch where the contact sets are loose.

'Metal strips' = blades, or switch blades, just so you learn the correct terminology. The 'stack' can be tightened via the screws, and since that one is loose you should check all of the relays and score reels. And yes, that sw. is a NO (normally open). And while you're checking the switch stacks take a good luck at all the solders and give the wires a gentle tug. Make sure no wires are touching each other or have any solder drips.

GTB Relay (resized).pngGTB Relay (resized).png

#31 2 years ago

I found several of stacks with loose screws. One was completely missing. I'll see if I can find it or find a new one. The vari target is working better. Not perfect but not far off. I'll look for loose connections after lunch. I'm hungry.

#32 2 years ago
Quoted from Snaggerbob:

I just finished cleaning all the Jones plugs. They looked pretty good but did clean up a bit. No success. Am I missing a contact on the picture submitted. It's on the bonus stepper.[quoted image]

Can I use any leaf switch to fix the problem in post 19? It is 2 1/2"

#33 2 years ago
Quoted from Snaggerbob:

Can I use any leaf switch to fix the problem in post 19? It is 2 1/2"

You have extra leafs? Yes, if the contacts match up.

#34 2 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

You have extra leafs? Yes, if the contacts match up.

I was going to buy a new one.

#35 2 years ago

I recommend keeping a supply of these blades and contacts
http://www.pbresource.com/pfswitch.htm#common

#36 2 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

I recommend keeping a supply of these blades and contacts
http://www.pbresource.com/pfswitch.htm#common

Definitely!!

#37 2 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

I recommend keeping a supply of these blades and contacts
http://www.pbresource.com/pfswitch.htm#common

I will. While looking around I found this. It may have something to do with the tilt function. Could I use it for a short term repair? Anymore thoughts on why no scoring with my hundreds and tens?
904A11DD-1759-4BE6-A1FC-87864B7F8613 (resized).jpeg904A11DD-1759-4BE6-A1FC-87864B7F8613 (resized).jpeg

#38 2 years ago

Looks like PBRrescue is out of stock on switch blades. Any other suppliers?

#39 2 years ago

There are some in the AG relay area:

http://www.pbresource.com/relay-GTB.html#gtb-ag

Make with Small Points GTB-B5364 $3.00ea

The bonus stepper switch is probably:
Blade: Blade-Med with Contact: Contact-SM-X on the http://www.pbresource.com/pfswitch.htm#common page
That roll tilt switch probably could be used, but as HowardR says, it would be good to build up a supply of switch parts. These switch components are only about 50 cents each. You've already found two switch issues...

#40 2 years ago
Quoted from Snaggerbob:

The bottom inside rollovers will score 500 with chimes when lit.

Light green path.

Quoted from Snaggerbob:

nothing when not.

Red path.

Quoted from Snaggerbob:

I’ve located the [M] relay. It will advance the reel if I manually push up on the bottom when powered.

Dark green path.

On playfield: When B is rolled over, left inlane gets lit
Schematic-wise: When B is rolled over, the B switch leading towards D (500 Point and Add Bonus Relay) becomes closed and the B switch leading towards M (100 Point Relay) is opened.

So rolling over a lit inlane sends signal to D, and rolling over an unlit inlane sends signal to M. For you, the former works, and the latter does not.

Try inspecting the red path using Alligator clip jumper wires. This link helped me out in the past on how to go about doing so: http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf

Screen Shot 2021-03-15 at 5.04.36 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-03-15 at 5.04.36 PM (resized).png
#41 2 years ago
Quoted from Snaggerbob:

Looks like PBRrescue is out of stock on switch blades. Any other suppliers?

They're only out of stock on the "Light .008" blades. They have the other 2 thicknesses.

#42 2 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

They're only out of stock on the "Light .008" blades. They have the other 2 thicknesses.

Thanks, I'll be making an order later.

#43 2 years ago
Quoted from flipkidflip:

Light green path.

Red path.

Dark green path.
On playfield: When B is rolled over, left inlane gets lit
Schematic-wise: When B is rolled over, the B switch leading towards D (500 Point and Add Bonus Relay) becomes closed and the B switch leading towards M (100 Point Relay) is opened.
So rolling over a lit inlane sends signal to D, and rolling over an unlit inlane sends signal to M. For you, the former works, and the latter does not.
Try inspecting the red path using Alligator clip jumper wires. This link helped me out in the past on how to go about doing so: http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf[quoted image]

Sorry but I'm having trouble. Are all the switches you have circled in the M relay? I can't find a green black wire. The wire for the rollover under the playfield is green black, I'm just not seeing it in the back cabinet.

Big Brave schematic (resized).jpgBig Brave schematic (resized).jpg
#44 2 years ago

The B relay is very hot and making a buzzing, louder than the others. Not sure it's working right. I'm going to try and check it out.

#45 2 years ago
Quoted from Snaggerbob:

The B relay is very hot and making a buzzing, louder than the others.

That's never good; do you have a multimeter? It should read about 14.9 for that coil (A 9735)

#46 2 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

That's never good; do you have a multimeter? It should read about 14.9 for that coil (A 9735)

B coil- 14.6(Looks burnt) I coil- 14.3-14.5 G coil- 14.1. Should the B relay reset when the game is reset.

#47 2 years ago

The "B" relay should be inactive at the beginning of every ball and should activate when one of the "B" rollovers are hit. It will remain on until the ball drains and then kicks out into the shooter lane for the next ball/player.

#48 2 years ago
Quoted from DaMoib:

The "B" relay should be inactive at the beginning of every ball and should activate when one of the "B" rollovers are hit. It will remain on until the ball drains and then kicks out into the shooter lane for the next ball/player.

Yep. If it's brunt and hot it is remaining energized when it should not be, so you'll need to track that down. Are either of these B switches sticking?

Capture (resized).PNGCapture (resized).PNG
#49 2 years ago
Quoted from Snaggerbob:

Sorry but I'm having trouble. Are all the switches you have circled in the M relay? I can't find a green black wire. The wire for the rollover under the playfield is green black, I'm just not seeing it in the back cabinet.

GR-BLK goes from the left bottom inlane rollover (under the playfield) to the B relay (also under the playfield). The switch on the B relay that has GR-BLK going into one side, should have a YELLOW-BLUE-RED coming out the other. That's the one that will continue to carry the signal to the M relay (in the backbox).

#50 2 years ago

I put the playfield up in service mode to get a better eyeball on everything. My wife was looking around at the machine and says"what's this for"? I took a look and found this laying in the bottom off the box. I plugged it in and guess what, my problems were fixed. I am such a bonehead. I thought I looked the machine over pretty well but I missed the obvious. I did learn a lot in the process. I sure am thankful to everyone trying to help. I still have one star rollover that is acting up and one drop target that will occasionally will reset then quickly fall back and give 500 points. It will finally reset.

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